Automobile Shipping


radiodial868
 

I've never actually seen pictures of loading/unloading of driveable cars in Automobile boxcars. Mainly interested in the 1930s-1940's.  Are there any?  From period newspaper accounts I gather that is how the cars were delivered to the far flung dealers in towns across America then.

Follow-up question is would the boxcars have been only from railroad(s) that served that manufacturing plant? For example, Yarmouth's nice looking CPR Automobile boxcar, would you expect to see it delivering cars only from factories that the CPR served? Or could it end up loaded with cars from Detroit for example?

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA


Steve SANDIFER
 

Just google Automobile box car and look at the images. There are a number of them.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 7:59 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping

 

 

I've never actually seen pictures of loading/unloading of driveable cars in Automobile boxcars. Mainly interested in the 1930s-1940's.  Are there any?  From period newspaper accounts I gather that is how the cars were delivered to the far flung dealers in towns across America then.

Follow-up question is would the boxcars have been only from railroad(s) that served that manufacturing plant? For example, Yarmouth's nice looking CPR Automobile boxcar, would you expect to see it delivering cars only from factories that the CPR served? Or could it end up loaded with cars from Detroit for example?

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA


 

RJ, you may find this interesting. From the June, 1934 issue of the N&W employee magazine. 



Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio

Sent from my mobile

On Jul 8, 2017, at 10:58 PM, radiodial@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

I've never actually seen pictures of loading/unloading of driveable cars in Automobile boxcars. Mainly interested in the 1930s-1940's.  Are there any?  From period newspaper accounts I gather that is how the cars were delivered to the far flung dealers in towns across America then.

Follow-up question is would the boxcars have been only from railroad(s) that served that manufacturing plant? For example, Yarmouth's nice looking CPR Automobile boxcar, would you expect to see it delivering cars only from factories that the CPR served? Or could it end up loaded with cars from Detroit for example?

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA


Bruce Smith
 

​RJ,


There are several photos in the Miscellaneous album on the group page.  There include an N&W automobile car with the Evans loaders down and in position to receive a car as well as a photo with the car loaded in the upper position.


A search of the Conversations of this group will also yield much more information.


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of radiodial@... [STMFC]
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 9:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping
 


I've never actually seen pictures of loading/unloading of driveable cars in Automobile boxcars. Mainly interested in the 1930s-1940's.  Are there any?  From period newspaper accounts I gather that is how the cars were delivered to the far flung dealers in towns across America then.

Follow-up question is would the boxcars have been only from railroad(s) that served that manufacturing plant? For example, Yarmouth's nice looking CPR Automobile boxcar, would you expect to see it delivering cars only from factories that the CPR served? Or could it end up loaded with cars from Detroit for example?

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA




radiodial868
 

Thanks Bruce,
I've seen the replies in the past that the info is in conversation history and in the photos section, and I think "what a newbie". Until now when it is my turn!  Ya know, I searched all 3 "Misc" and "Miscellaneous" folders, plus searched prior message history back to 2001. Nada. Did find a scan of an auto-rack loading damage form though in the photo section. Lots of pictures of model Auto cars.
A Google search found 2 pictures of actual boxcar loading in the 30's-40's, but no unloading.
So maybe the question is, were Automobile boxcars actually used to deliver cars from the factory to the dealers for any length of time?  I figured there would be more images out there if they were.
Attempting to keep the rolling stock fleet balanced and find a use of all these automobile boxcars I tend to build/acquire.
Thx,
RJ Dial
Burlingame, CA


---In STMFC@..., <smithbf@...> wrote :

​RJ,


There are several photos in the Miscellaneous album on the group page.  There include an N&W automobile car with the Evans loaders down and in position to receive a car as well as a photo with the car loaded in the upper position.


A search of the Conversations of this group will also yield much more information.


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of radiodial@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 9:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping
 


I've never actually seen pictures of loading/unloading of driveable cars in Automobile boxcars. Mainly interested in the 1930s-1940's.  Are there any?  From period newspaper accounts I gather that is how the cars were delivered to the far flung dealers in towns across America then.

Follow-up question is would the boxcars have been only from railroad(s) that served that manufacturing plant? For example, Yarmouth's nice looking CPR Automobile boxcar, would you expect to see it delivering cars only from factories that the CPR served? Or could it end up loaded with cars from Detroit for example?

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA




Al Kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

For looking at C&O and N&W photos it is not that unusual to find pictures of portions of the auto unloading docks with ramps next to the team track.  Unfortunately, photographers focused on the adjacent depots.  These ramped-docks are rarely captioned in the photo credits.  The station history cards for changes many times list removal of the team track and docks.  Ramps would be erected for end-door unloadings.


After WW2, folks were allowed to arrange through their dealer to pick up their cars at the assembly plants and save the shipping charges.  My uncle, working in a dealership shop, living in Washington would take the train to Flint, Michigan, and then drive the family back through his old home in South Dakota in their new car.


Trucking new cars longer distances became more common in the mid-50's.


Al Kresse

On July 9, 2017 at 4:26 PM "radiodial@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Thanks Bruce,

I've seen the replies in the past that the info is in conversation history and in the photos section, and I think "what a newbie". Until now when it is my turn!  Ya know, I searched all 3 "Misc" and "Miscellaneous" folders, plus searched prior message history back to 2001. Nada. Did find a scan of an auto-rack loading damage form though in the photo section. Lots of pictures of model Auto cars.
A Google search found 2 pictures of actual boxcar loading in the 30's-40's, but no unloading.
So maybe the question is, were Automobile boxcars actually used to deliver cars from the factory to the dealers for any length of time?  I figured there would be more images out there if they were.
Attempting to keep the rolling stock fleet balanced and find a use of all these automobile boxcars I tend to build/acquire.
Thx,
RJ Dial
Burlingame, CA


---In STMFC@..., <smithbf@...> wrote :

RJ,


There are several photos in the Miscellaneous album on the group page.  There include an N&W automobile car with the Evans loaders down and in position to receive a car as well as a photo with the car loaded in the upper position.


A search of the Conversations of this group will also yield much more information.


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of radiodial@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 9:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping
 


I've never actually seen pictures of loading/unloading of driveable cars in Automobile boxcars. Mainly interested in the 1930s-1940's.  Are there any?  From period newspaper accounts I gather that is how the cars were delivered to the far flung dealers in towns across America then.

Follow-up question is would the boxcars have been only from railroad(s) that served that manufacturing plant? For example, Yarmouth's nice looking CPR Automobile boxcar, would you expect to see it delivering cars only from factories that the CPR served? Or could it end up loaded with cars from Detroit for example?

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA



 

 


 


Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

RJ,

Here are links to some N&W auto cars:

https://imagebase.lib.vt.edu/image_viewer.php?q=NS2856

https://imagebase.lib.vt.edu/image_viewer.php?q=NS2904

https://imagebase.lib.vt.edu/image_viewer.php?q=NS2905

These photos show the Evans auto racks ready for loading on the car floor and stowed to the roof for non-auto loading.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff



Schuyler Larrabee
 

Well, RJ, I am in the process of building a model of a box car that was built in January 1942 as an automobile car. It’s definitely a 10’-6” IH car, but it’s even labeled on the side as a 10’-4” IH car because it was originally equipped with racks, reducing the clear IH by 2”. So the railroads anticipated shipping automobiles in box cars at least into the early 40s.



They didn’t ship many, of course, because most auto manufacturers were converting their factories to make war materiel.



Schuyler



From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 09, 2017 4:26 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping





Thanks Bruce,

I've seen the replies in the past that the info is in conversation history and in the photos section, and I think "what a newbie". Until now when it is my turn! Ya know, I searched all 3 "Misc" and "Miscellaneous" folders, plus searched prior message history back to 2001. Nada. Did find a scan of an auto-rack loading damage form though in the photo section. Lots of pictures of model Auto cars.

A Google search found 2 pictures of actual boxcar loading in the 30's-40's, but no unloading.

So maybe the question is, were Automobile boxcars actually used to deliver cars from the factory to the dealers for any length of time? I figured there would be more images out there if they were.

Attempting to keep the rolling stock fleet balanced and find a use of all these automobile boxcars I tend to build/acquire.

Thx,

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA



---In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, <smithbf@...> wrote :

​RJ,



There are several photos in the Miscellaneous album on the group page. There include an N&W automobile car with the Evans loaders down and in position to receive a car as well as a photo with the car loaded in the upper position.



A search of the Conversations of this group will also yield much more information.



Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL

_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of radiodial@... [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 9:58 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping





I've never actually seen pictures of loading/unloading of driveable cars in Automobile boxcars. Mainly interested in the 1930s-1940's. Are there any? From period newspaper accounts I gather that is how the cars were delivered to the far flung dealers in towns across America then.

Follow-up question is would the boxcars have been only from railroad(s) that served that manufacturing plant? For example, Yarmouth's nice looking CPR Automobile boxcar, would you expect to see it delivering cars only from factories that the CPR served? Or could it end up loaded with cars from Detroit for example?

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Bruce Smith
 

RJ


From the Misc Album

Empty N&W car

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/photos/albums/1686885752/lightbox/957153180?orderBy=ordinal&sortOrder=asc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/957153180

N&W car with a car loaded

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/STMFC/photos/albums/1686885752/lightbox/851276406?orderBy=ordinal&sortOrder=asc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/851276406


On the web a search of "Loading automobile boxcar" got plenty of photos.


Yes these cars were used for this traffic very frequently.  The time frame starts shortly after the automobile became popular and lasted into the mid to late 1950s.  Post WWII, the traffic tapered off with other modes of delivery starting to take precedence.


Some automobile cars had end doors that made them useful for loads that wouldn't fit in the racks (and not all automobile cars had end doors).  Among the more popular cargos were fire engines, and even airplanes,.  In fact the Army's movies of the very first US jet airplane show it being delivered in an end door automobile car.


See Tony's excellent blog for a good discussion and a photo of an Aeronica airplane being loaded.

http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2015/12/delivering-loads-from-automobile-cars.html


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL



From: STMFC@... on behalf of radiodial@... [STMFC]
Sent: Sunday, July 9, 2017 3:26 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping
 


Thanks Bruce,
I've seen the replies in the past that the info is in conversation history and in the photos section, and I think "what a newbie". Until now when it is my turn!  Ya know, I searched all 3 "Misc" and "Miscellaneous" folders, plus searched prior message history back to 2001. Nada. Did find a scan of an auto-rack loading damage form though in the photo section. Lots of pictures of model Auto cars.
A Google search found 2 pictures of actual boxcar loading in the 30's-40's, but no unloading.
So maybe the question is, were Automobile boxcars actually used to deliver cars from the factory to the dealers for any length of time?  I figured there would be more images out there if they were.
Attempting to keep the rolling stock fleet balanced and find a use of all these automobile boxcars I tend to build/acquire.
Thx,
RJ Dial
Burlingame, CA


---In STMFC@..., wrote :

​RJ,


There are several photos in the Miscellaneous album on the group page.  There include an N&W automobile car with the Evans loaders down and in position to receive a car as well as a photo with the car loaded in the upper position.


A search of the Conversations of this group will also yield much more information.


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of radiodial@... [STMFC]
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 9:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping
 


I've never actually seen pictures of loading/unloading of driveable cars in Automobile boxcars. Mainly interested in the 1930s-1940's.  Are there any?  From period newspaper accounts I gather that is how the cars were delivered to the far flung dealers in towns across America then.

Follow-up question is would the boxcars have been only from railroad(s) that served that manufacturing plant? For example, Yarmouth's nice looking CPR Automobile boxcar, would you expect to see it delivering cars only from factories that the CPR served? Or could it end up loaded with cars from Detroit for example?

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA






O Fenton Wells
 

I'm no expert by any means but while digging into railroad history in Sanford NC we found a team track (now long gone) near downtown on the A&Y.  Several "old timers' told us that the box car would be spotted at the ramp on the team track and the local dealer had to come down and unload the autos.  The railroad did not do it.  I wonder who was responsible for damage to vehicles if a lazy or incompetent operator made a mistake.
AAHHHH the good old days

--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <srrfan1401@...> wrote :

 I wonder who was responsible for damage to vehicles if a lazy or incompetent operator made a mistake.
AAHHHH the good old days

--
Fenton Wells
====================

Like any other shipment.The railroad spotted the car for loading. The consignor, usually the manufacture, loaded the car with his people. If they damaged something, it was on them. If there was a history of excessive damage claims, the RR had the right to inspect the load before the car was sealed.

The railroad(s) then moved the car to it's destination.

When the consignee, usually a dealer, opened the car, first order of business was to inspect for damage. Damage claims were a lot easier if the damaged load was inspected before unloading., as the railroad would claim the damage was done during unloading, which would then be the responsibility of the consignee.

If no damage, the dealer's people then unloaded the car. Any damage done during unloading was on them.

Dennis Storzek


O Fenton Wells
 

Thanks Dennis, Good to learn how this worked
Thanks

--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Jeffrey White
 

I have photos of docks with ramps and track charts that show the ramps at the IC freight houses in Decatur IL and Centralia IL.  How were the autos distributed to the dealer?  Did the dealers pick them up at the nearest freight house with facilities to unload the automobile cars or were there regional locations where they were unloaded and then shipped by truck to the local dealer in 1955?

Jeff White

Alma, IL


On 7/9/2017 4:32 PM, Al Kresse water.kresse@... [STMFC] wrote:
 

For looking at C&O and N&W photos it is not that unusual to find pictures of portions of the auto unloading docks with ramps next to the team track.  Unfortunately, photographers focused on the adjacent depots.  These ramped-docks are rarely captioned in the photo credits.  The station history cards for changes many times list removal of the team track and docks.  Ramps would be erected for end-door unloadings.


After WW2, folks were allowed to arrange through their dealer to pick up their cars at the assembly plants and save the shipping charges.  My uncle, working in a dealership shop, living in Washington would take the train to Flint, Michigan, and then drive the family back through his old home in South Dakota in their new car.


Trucking new cars longer distances became more common in the mid-50's.


Al Kresse

On July 9, 2017 at 4:26 PM "radiodial@... [STMFC]" wrote:

 

Thanks Bruce,

I've seen the replies in the past that the info is in conversation history and in the photos section, and I think "what a newbie". Until now when it is my turn!  Ya know, I searched all 3 "Misc" and "Miscellaneous" folders, plus searched prior message history back to 2001. Nada. Did find a scan of an auto-rack loading damage form though in the photo section. Lots of pictures of model Auto cars.
A Google search found 2 pictures of actual boxcar loading in the 30's-40's, but no unloading.
So maybe the question is, were Automobile boxcars actually used to deliver cars from the factory to the dealers for any length of time?  I figured there would be more images out there if they were.
Attempting to keep the rolling stock fleet balanced and find a use of all these automobile boxcars I tend to build/acquire.
Thx,
RJ Dial
Burlingame, CA


---In STMFC@..., wrote :

RJ,


There are several photos in the Miscellaneous album on the group page.  There include an N&W automobile car with the Evans loaders down and in position to receive a car as well as a photo with the car loaded in the upper position.


A search of the Conversations of this group will also yield much more information.


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of radiodial@... [STMFC]
Sent: Saturday, July 8, 2017 9:58 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Automobile Shipping
 


I've never actually seen pictures of loading/unloading of driveable cars in Automobile boxcars. Mainly interested in the 1930s-1940's.  Are there any?  From period newspaper accounts I gather that is how the cars were delivered to the far flung dealers in towns across America then.

Follow-up question is would the boxcars have been only from railroad(s) that served that manufacturing plant? For example, Yarmouth's nice looking CPR Automobile boxcar, would you expect to see it delivering cars only from factories that the CPR served? Or could it end up loaded with cars from Detroit for example?

RJ Dial

Burlingame, CA



 

 


 



Eric Hansmann
 

 

Depending upon your modeling era, 36-foot automobile box cars should be considered. Here's an image of Michigan Central 87129. This car was one of 1000 built by AC&F in 1912 as Lot 286-B. The October 1926 ORER notes 2917 cars listed in the MCRR 87000-89999 series. There are two other series listed as 36-foot XA cars.

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/mcrr-87129.jpg

 

 

50600-51049 - 391 cars

51100-52099 - 880 cars

 

These three car series total 4188 cars in late 1926.

As additional info, the Michigan Central listed 15,756 40-foot XA cars in the October 1926 ORER.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN


Bruce Smith
 

Jeff,

Basically, the closest local team track or freight house was typically the place where automobiles were delivered to local dealers and then they were driven on their own wheels to the dealership.  A “full load” on a 40’ car would be 4 autos and a 50’ car might load as many as 6 autos. Dealers typically got full loads but the could also split loads, typically with the dealer in the next town ;)

Unloading required either a platform at the height of the car doors, or for end door cars, a ramp.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Jul 10, 2017, at 9:43 AM, Jeffrey White jrwhite@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

I have photos of docks with ramps and track charts that show the ramps at the IC freight houses in Decatur IL and Centralia IL.  How were the autos distributed to the dealer?  Did the dealers pick them up at the nearest freight house with facilities to unload the automobile cars or were there regional locations where they were unloaded and then shipped by truck to the local dealer in 1955?

Jeff White


George Eichelberger
 

I just checked, the PDF of the presentation I did at the Collinsville RPM on shipping autos and auto parts last year is still up on Google Drive. If anyone is interested, they can download theGoogle entire presentation (unfortunately with no narration).

The Google link is:

Ike


Dennis Storzek
 

When talking about the origins of shipping autos by rail, we need to keep in mind that this was really just an extension of shipping carriages by rail. Before the turn of the twentieth century, railroads already had a small number of oversize boxcars, with oversize doors on the roster for the carriage trade. As the carriage makers closed, or morphed into auto makers, the cars did the same.

Carriage makers were used to stacking carriages into the cars, blocking them up with cribbing, to get more carriages per load, thus reducing shipping costs. The auto makers followed suit, sometimes building a false work to get a second level in the cars. 

An interesting group of auto cars were the big fifty foot all steel cars the Union Pacific had built about 1914 or so. One of these is preserved (un-restored) at the Henry Ford Museum, specifically because the museum has a photo on new Model T's being loaded. The lower layer was rolled in through the end doors on their tires. A series of cross pieces were fitted between pockets provided in the car sides, which supported wood stringers, then a second layer were rolled in with their axle ends supported by the stringers. The wheels from the upper layer were then stowed between the cars on the floor.

As automobiles became larger and "softer" (more prone to body damage) these double deck schemes fell out of favor, until the invention of the Evans "loaders", which allowed autos to be hoisted off the floor intact, and others shipped below them.

Dennis Storzek


dgconnery@...
 

Hi RJ,


Send me a note at dgconnery at sbcglobal dot net. I have a photo of them unloading Model T's in Sonora (body separate from the frame and drive train). Would be a great scene to model. Can't get Yahoo to let me reply to you and I have lost your direct e-mail address.


Dave Connery


Tony Thompson
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

 

When talking about the origins of shipping autos by rail, we need to keep in mind that this was really just an extension of shipping carriages by rail. Before the turn of the twentieth century, railroads already had a small number of oversize boxcars, with oversize doors on the roster for the carriage trade. As the carriage makers closed, or morphed into auto makers, the cars did the same . . .

An interesting group of auto cars were the big fifty foot all steel cars the Union Pacific had built about 1914 or so. One of these is preserved (un-restored) at the Henry Ford Museum, specifically because the museum has a photo on new Model T's being loaded. The lower layer was rolled in through the end doors on their tires. A series of cross pieces were fitted between pockets provided in the car sides, which supported wood stringers, then a second layer were rolled in with their axle ends supported by the stringers. The wheels from the upper layer were then stowed between the cars on the floor.

As automobiles became larger and "softer" (more prone to body damage) these double deck schemes fell out of favor, until the invention of the Evans "loaders", which allowed autos to be hoisted off the floor intact, and others shipped below them.

     Goos summary. On the last point, there was an intermediate era in which wooden "hurdles" were used to support automobiles much as the Evans loader did, but of course with having to make hurdles and work around the auto to get it loaded. I'm sure the Evans device was a great relief to auto shippers.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Tom Vanwormer
 

Bruce,
In the case of the Colorado Midland on the Western Slope of Colorado a couple of 2x6's were used for the ramp.  Photo if wanted.

Tom VanWormer
Monument CO

'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC] wrote:

 

Jeff,


Basically, the closest local team track or freight house was typically the place where automobiles were delivered to local dealers and then they were driven on their own wheels to the dealership.  A “full load” on a 40’ car would be 4 autos and a 50’ car might load as many as 6 autos. Dealers typically got full loads but the could also split loads, typically with the dealer in the next town ;)

Unloading required either a platform at the height of the car doors, or for end door cars, a ramp.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Jul 10, 2017, at 9:43 AM, Jeffrey White jrwhite@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

I have photos of docks with ramps and track charts that show the ramps at the IC freight houses in Decatur IL and Centralia IL.  How were the autos distributed to the dealer?  Did the dealers pick them up at the nearest freight house with facilities to unload the automobile cars or were there regional locations where they were unloaded and then shipped by truck to the local dealer in 1955?

Jeff White