5 Man Crew.


 

The time period we are talking about... steam era... a five man crew... yes/no? Where does the head end brakeman ride? Cab of the engine? Caboose with a long walk to the front end.. ?

Gordon Spalty


Tony Thompson
 

Gordon Spalty wrote:

 

The time period we are talking about... steam era... a five man crew... yes/no? Where does the head end brakeman ride? Cab of the engine? Caboose with a long walk to the front end.. ?


    Depended on the job if you had a head-end brakie or not. But he was called that because he rode the engine. Many steam cabs had a pull-down seat behind the fireman for his use. And that was the bottom of the crew totem pole, so to speak -- all the dirtier or less fun jobs would go to him.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Todd Sullivan
 

Hi Gordon,

For road jobs, the usual crew complement was engineer, fireman, conductor, head end brakeman, and rear end brakeman.  Some states required, and I think some railroads used, depending on the job the train did, a swing brakeman that would work wherever needed between both ends of the train.

For yard jobs, at least on the terminal switching outfit that I worked at, the crew complement was engineer, fireman, switch crew foreman and three switchmen. 

Some shortlines, industrial railroads and loggers would use only 2-3 crewmen, and were not subject to national and state full crew laws.

Todd Sullivan.


Bruce Smith
 

​Yes, and on the PRR, the head end brakeman rides in the brakeman's shanty or "doghouse" on the tender, or in the cab if the fireman needs a hand or wants company.


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of boomer1944@... [STMFC]
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 8:00 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] 5 Man Crew.
 


The time period we are talking about... steam era... a five man crew... yes/no? Where does the head end brakeman ride? Cab of the engine? Caboose with a long walk to the front end.. ?

Gordon Spalty


Jim Pickett
 

Don't forget, the N&W had doghouses too.
 
Jim Pickett


On Monday, August 7, 2017 9:23 PM, "'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
​Yes, and on the PRR, the head end brakeman rides in the brakeman's shanty or "doghouse" on the tender, or in the cab if the fireman needs a hand or wants company.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: STMFC@... on behalf of boomer1944@... [STMFC]
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 8:00 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] 5 Man Crew.
 


The time period we are talking about... steam era... a five man crew... yes/no? Where does the head end brakeman ride? Cab of the engine? Caboose with a long walk to the front end.. ?

Gordon Spalty




Tim O'Connor
 


The Wabash, after dieselization, felt that Ohio's "full crew" laws were both
onerous and stupidly written - they didn't specify WHERE the extra crew needed
to be.

So the Wabash rebuilt some old freight cars as crew cars and put the extra men
in the MIDDLE OF THE TRAIN where they had nothing to do but go for a ride! If I
recall correctly, the law required a 6 man crew. The cars were only occupied
within Ohio's borders.

Tim O'Connor



The time period we are talking about... steam era... a five man crew... yes/no? Where does the head end brakeman ride? Cab of the engine? Caboose with a long walk to the front end.. ?

Gordon Spalty


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Gordon Spalty wrote:

The time period we are talking about... steam era... a five man crew...
yes/no? Where does the head end brakeman ride? Cab of the engine? Caboose
with a long walk to the front end.. ?



Depended on the job if you had a head-end brakie or not. But he was
called that because he rode the engine. Many steam cabs had a pull-down seat
behind the fireman for his use. And that was the bottom of the crew totem
pole, so to speak -- all the dirtier or less fun jobs would go to him.



Tony Thompson



Didn't the HE brakie also use the doghouse on roads where the tender was so
equipped? What a horrible place to ride, as the water in the tank was a
heat sink for your body heat.



Schuyler


Dennis Storzek
 




---In STMFC@..., <boomer1944@...> wrote :

The time period we are talking about... steam era... a five man crew... yes/no? Where does the head end brakeman ride? Cab of the engine? Caboose with a long walk to the front end.. ?

Gordon Spalty
=====================================

Who did you think lined the switch to head the train into a siding?

As others have said, some roads were partial to "dog houses" on the tender deck. PRR. SL-SF, and D&RGW come readily to mind.

You really need to be more specific that, "steam era", because things changed with time. I suspect part of the move to brakeman's quarters on the tender was the ICC edict that all road locomotives over a certain weight be equipped with mechanical stokers by some date in 1940, IIRC.

While the Soo Line didn't use tender dog houses, what they needed to do to comply with the law is instructive. While Soo power typically had large cabs, they were well forward on the boiler, originally to enclose the injectors, and only had room for two seat boxes behind the boiler backhead. These were for the engineer and... brakeman. The fireman's work station was on the deck, where the firing took place. Withe the advent of mechanical stokers, they needed a place for him to sit. That caused the road to remodel the cabs to make them even bigger. Many engines received new steel cabs at this time, but some few engines had their original wood cabs extended. One still exists on the engine preserved in Ladysmith, WI. Close inspection shows where they added 16" to the rear of the cab, which allowed a second seat box on the left side, and a clothes locker behind the engineer. Passenger power was unaffected, as the brakeman in passenger service typically road the train to act as a ticket collector, when he wasn't setting out express cars.

As I recall, fearless leader has determined that express cars can be discussed here, so I'm safe, I think :-)

Dennis Storzek


Tony Thompson
 

Don't forget, the N&W had doghouses too.

    And the T&NO.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

Some states mandated a rider car or extra caboose for the head brakeman, which was carried behind the locomotive on at least some classes of freight trains (mandatory freight car content). IIRC, Indiana was one. NKP was one road that had rider cars. I would appreciate learning more about this practice.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


On 8/7/17 9:27 PM, Jim Pickett jimpick2001@... [STMFC] wrote:
 
Don't forget, the N&W had doghouses too.
 
Jim Pickett


On Monday, August 7, 2017 9:23 PM, "'Bruce F. Smith' smithbf@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
​Yes, and on the PRR, the head end brakeman rides in the brakeman's shanty or "doghouse" on the tender, or in the cab if the fireman needs a hand or wants company.

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Jerry Michels
 

The MoPac had doghouses for the fifth crewman.  I believe a 5-man crew was only required in Arkansas.  Jerry Michels


 

Who did you think lined the switch to head the train into a siding?

Ah... kind-a thought that was part of my question... where the HE brakeman rode?
Thanks everyone for your answers. I knew about the doghouses. I didn't know about a third seat in a steam cab. One of those little details that gets overlooked in a model.

Gordon Spalty


Michael Gross
 

This is “off-date” for this list, but in 1967 I fired for the C&NW on their Wisconsin Division north of Chicago.  The state of Wisconsin still had a “full-crew law” at that time, requiring a five-man crew on our freights.  C&NW was completely dieselized, with the engineer, fireman and head brakeman in the cab; conductor and rear brakeman in the caboose.  Head brakeman handled head-end drops and pick-ups and rear brakeman handled those at the rear of the train.

Michael Gross
Pasadena, CA


Edward
 

B&O provided a seat for the head brakeman on a number of its Q-4 class 2-8-2 freight locomotives by extending the fireman's side of the cab and back wall on that side, for adding a place behind the fireman's seat.

Ed Bommer


Bud Rindfleisch
 

Michael,
    I started railroading in December of 1966. In New York State they still had the "full crew" law requiring firemen. On westbounds the fireman got off once they reached Pennsylvania as Pa. did not have the full crew law. Made for some short runs out of Buffalo westbound, about 90 miles to the Pa border. The firemen caught the next eastbound back home on a short turn around. It was a gravy job until NY State also eliminated the fireman position. 
     Bud Rindfleisch


Jared Harper
 

The same on the Santa Fe.

Jared Harper


william darnaby
 

Indiana and Ohio were full crew law states requiring 6 men on the crew of local freights and trains exceeding 69 cars.  The roads in these states tended to run another caboose just behind the engine on locals or setout trains.  They sometimes used home made cabooses, generally from boxcars, without cupolas and with or without freight doors for handling parcel freight or company mail.  The conductor tended to ride here next to the engine leaving the flagman in the rear.  Why?  Imagine pulling into town with a 25 car local.  Who goes into see the agent about the day's work?  The conductor.  If the conductor is at the rear that caboose will be stopped by the depot.  He is not walking the length of the train.  Then when he wants to talk to the engineer the train will have to be backed up to get the engineer and conductor together at the depot.  Have the conductor up front next to the engine saves a lot of shuffling back and forth of the train.

Bill Darnaby



From: "Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 3:37 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] 5 Man Crew.



Friends,

Some states mandated a rider car or extra caboose for the head brakeman, which was carried behind the locomotive on at least some classes of freight trains (mandatory freight car content). IIRC, Indiana was one. NKP was one road that had rider cars. I would appreciate learning more about this practice.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


   


Virus-free. www.avast.com


jczzo126 CocuzzaT
 

5 man crews were still common on the Reading when I worked there in the 70's. They didn't go away until the mid 70's when union contracts were being renegotiated and the Brotherhoods started to merge. The Reading GP30's were ordered within a slightly extended cab to accommodate a 'brakie's seat. Best years of my life...........

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 9:53 PM, William Darnaby wdarnaby@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Indiana and Ohio were full crew law states requiring 6 men on the crew of local freights and trains exceeding 69 cars.  The roads in these states tended to run another caboose just behind the engine on locals or setout trains.  They sometimes used home made cabooses, generally from boxcars, without cupolas and with or without freight doors for handling parcel freight or company mail.  The conductor tended to ride here next to the engine leaving the flagman in the rear.  Why?  Imagine pulling into town with a 25 car local.  Who goes into see the agent about the day's work?  The conductor.  If the conductor is at the rear that caboose will be stopped by the depot.  He is not walking the length of the train.  Then when he wants to talk to the engineer the train will have to be backed up to get the engineer and conductor together at the depot.  Have the conductor up front next to the engine saves a lot of shuffling back and forth of the train.

Bill Darnaby



From: "Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 3:37 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] 5 Man Crew.



Friends,

Some states mandated a rider car or extra caboose for the head brakeman, which was carried behind the locomotive on at least some classes of freight trains (mandatory freight car content). IIRC, Indiana was one. NKP was one road that had rider cars. I would appreciate learning more about this practice.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


   


Virus-free. www.avast.com



Jim Gates
 

Actually the Arkansas law was a six man crew. I remember it being an election issue. Lasted until around 1970.

Jim Gates
--------------------------------------------

On Tue, 8/8/17, Gerald Michels gjmichels53@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] Re: 5 Man Crew.
To: STMFC@...
Date: Tuesday, August 8, 2017, 7:16 AM

The MoPac had doghouses for the
fifth crewman.  I believe a 5-man crew was only required in
Arkansas.  Jerry Michels













.











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I looked up the B&O Q series locos. Yes some did have an extension to the steam cab for the head end brakeman... kind of awkward looking though. There were several other series with HE brakeman windows integrated into the cab much better....IMHO.

Once you start looking for this you see... bigger windows on the fireman's side on other roads. The things you learn.

Thanks all,
Gordon spalty