Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits


Bill Welch
 

Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch


O Fenton Wells
 

Bill, there were a whole series of articles on those manufacturers in Railmodel Journal and Model Railroading in the '80's and early 90's. I have some of them.  I believe Thompson and Hendrickson did many of them.  I can help but I'm sure others can provide the ones I don't have.
Fenton

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 6:41 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:


The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


O Fenton Wells
 

Don't forget about McKeen and Front Range also

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 9:27 AM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:
Bill, there were a whole series of articles on those manufacturers in Railmodel Journal and Model Railroading in the '80's and early 90's. I have some of them.  I believe Thompson and Hendrickson did many of them.  I can help but I'm sure others can provide the ones I don't have.
Fenton

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 6:41 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:


The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch




--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...



--
Fenton Wells
5 Newberry Lane
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-1144
srrfan1401@...


Bill Welch
 

I am not covering those kits in my presentation.

Bill Welch


Dennis Storzek
 

All between 1986 and about 1992 or so. I was in Dick's shop when they were working on tooling for the AAR car, looking for a source of toolmaking services for what was to become the Accurail line.

The IMWX kit came out a couple years after Intermountain, tooled by Intermountain for one of the original partners.

Not sure about Intermountain's own car, likely shortly after Front Range failed. 

Sorry I can't ger any closer on the dates.

Dennis Storzek


---In STMFC@..., <fgexbill@...> wrote :

Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch


SUVCWORR@...
 

Bill,

Directly from the source C&BT announced 1988 NMRA convention

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: fgexbill@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 6:41 am
Subject: [STMFC] Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch



Tim O'Connor
 


  > Directly from the source C&BT announced 1988 NMRA convention
  > Rich Orr

I restarted in the hobby in the summer of 1988, and IIRC George Bishop got
the first stocks of C&BT kits in 1989. C&BT had been started in 1986 to
make East Broad Top models. The C&BT 100 through 3700 series all came out
at about the same time. The 4100 to 4700 series (with later style DN ends)
were introduced shortly before C&BT decided to go to cast on ladders and
grabs, so I only got a couple of those kits before there were no more.

In 1991 I went to the NMRA convention in Denver and saw Intermountain for
the first time - they made only O scale freight car models at that time.

In 1993 I went to the NMRA convention train show in Valley Forge and spoke
to Dick Schweiger and he was talking about one of the X29 rebuilds as the
next project and I think this was around the time he modified the box car
tooling to use cast on grabs and ladders. I think IMWX was new then, or they
appeared very shortly after that. I also met a young Ken Patterson at that
show, tending to his spectacular modular layout display.

IMWX was only around for a couple of years - Intermountain's blast in their
direction in the form of the PFE R-40-23 was rushed into production to torpedo
the IMWX R-40-23. That was the end for IMWX. Intermountain's next successful
U-boat attack was to go after C&BT with the Santa Fe reefers. Severely damaged
and taking on water, C&BT limped into drydock. You may be able to pin down the
introduction of the IMWX kit by going back a year or two from the IRC R-40-23.

In the MEANTIME, after IMWX but before Intermountain's version of the 1937
AAR box car, Red Caboose acquired the IMWX tooling. A year or two afer that
the Front Range 40 foot box cars tooling also went to Red Caboose. I think
they were first released by Red Caboose in either 1996 or 1997.

I think 1996 or 1997 is also when Intermountain released their first 10'6" AAR
box car, the "modified 1937" car.

Finally IIRC the first IRC 1937 kits came after 2000, but AFTER IRC had done the
postwar 10 foot inside height box cars for the GN and SP&S (about 1998?). The body
was the same for both cars, as only the ends, roofs and underframes were different.

Tim O'Connor








Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch


O Fenton Wells
 

Okie dokie 


On Sep 2, 2017, at 10:01 AM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

I am not covering those kits in my presentation.


Bill Welch


suvcworr <SUVCWORR@...>
 

To add to the C&BT Dick was talked into the cast on ladders and grabs by two well known often published model railroaders.  Prior to the recutting of the dies the cars came with grandt line ladders and iirc Tichy grabs.  The issue with theses cars were the in-house trucks with split axle.  

As for the SFRD reefers test shots were provided to ATSF experts who "okayed" the model and then tossed Dick under the bus when they were released.  

It was the X29B that was planned.  The problem was the die cutter who had done the original dies for the boxcar passed away.  His son took over the business and his skills to be kind were wanting.  Dick never found an acceptable die cutter who would cut steel dies at an acceptable price.  So the project was in limbo and eventually Dick's health became an issue.  

Rich Orr



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...>
Date: 9/2/17 14:09 (GMT-05:00)
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937  Modified Kits


  > Directly from the source C&BT announced 1988 NMRA convention
  > Rich Orr

I restarted in the hobby in the summer of 1988, and IIRC George Bishop got
the first stocks of C&BT kits in 1989. C&BT had been started in 1986 to
make East Broad Top models. The C&BT 100 through 3700 series all came out
at about the same time. The 4100 to 4700 series (with later style DN ends)
were introduced shortly before C&BT decided to go to cast on ladders and
grabs, so I only got a couple of those kits before there were no more.

In 1991 I went to the NMRA convention in Denver and saw Intermountain for
the first time - they made only O scale freight car models at that time.

In 1993 I went to the NMRA convention train show in Valley Forge and spoke
to Dick Schweiger and he was talking about one of the X29 rebuilds as the
next project and I think this was around the time he modified the box car
tooling to use cast on grabs and ladders. I think IMWX was new then, or they
appeared very shortly after that. I also met a young Ken Patterson at that
show, tending to his spectacular modular layout display.

IMWX was only around for a couple of years - Intermountain's blast in their
direction in the form of the PFE R-40-23 was rushed into production to torpedo
the IMWX R-40-23. That was the end for IMWX. Intermountain's next successful
U-boat attack was to go after C&BT with the Santa Fe reefers. Severely damaged
and taking on water, C&BT limped into drydock. You may be able to pin down the
introduction of the IMWX kit by going back a year or two from the IRC R-40-23.

In the MEANTIME, after IMWX but before Intermountain's version of the 1937
AAR box car, Red Caboose acquired the IMWX tooling. A year or two afer that
the Front Range 40 foot box cars tooling also went to Red Caboose. I think
they were first released by Red Caboose in either 1996 or 1997.

I think 1996 or 1997 is also when Intermountain released their first 10'6" AAR
box car, the "modified 1937" car.

Finally IIRC the first IRC 1937 kits came after 2000, but AFTER IRC had done the
postwar 10 foot inside height box cars for the GN and SP&S (about 1998?). The body
was the same for both cars, as only the ends, roofs and underframes were different.

Tim O'Connor








Can someone here recall please the precise years that the following styrene kits were introduced to the market for sale:

The C&BT 40-foot steel car with a range of doors, roof, and ends to model the AAR boxcars built beginning in 1944.

The Innovative Model Works kit to model the Standard 1937 AAR 40-foot steel boxcar.

The InterMountain Modified 1937 AAR kit.

I will use this information in the 2018 clinic I am planning. Thank you.

Bill Welch


Tony Thompson
 

Rich Orr wrote:

 
To add to the C&BT Dick was talked into the cast on ladders and grabs by two well known often published model railroaders.  Prior to the recutting of the dies the cars came with grandt line ladders and iirc Tichy grabs.  The issue with theses cars were the in-house trucks with split axle.  

     Not sure what the smoking materials may be at your house, Rich, but I helped Dick with lots of kits and built a bunch too. Never saw a single Grandt ladder or wire grab. Of course, the kit detail spruces were so bad, one quickly binned them and DID substitute decent ladders and grabs. But they weren't in any kit I ever saw.
      A number of the car bodies were really well done, especially the Dreadnaught ends of various vintages. The rivets were pretty darn big, bigger than Athearn, but not terribly evident on a layout.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history






Bill Welch
 

Tony is correct. The only things I used were the body, doors, and underframe/floor assembly. Most of mine got the really nice 7 and 8-rung ladders introduced by Detail Associated in brown styrene. I built several very satisfying models and then horded many when it was announced the details would be molded on.

Bill Welch


SUVCWORR@...
 

Tony,

I was thinking of pre-production kits which I obtained and forgot about the in=house sprue of parts which I agree was bad. Somewhere I have a stash of about 100 bodies without the cast on ladders and grabs.  They were misprinted letteriing free for the taking.  No floors or doors just bodies.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sat, Sep 2, 2017 4:16 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Rich Orr wrote:

 
To add to the C&BT Dick was talked into the cast on ladders and grabs by two well known often published model railroaders.  Prior to the recutting of the dies the cars came with grandt line ladders and iirc Tichy grabs.  The issue with theses cars were the in-house trucks with split axle.  

     Not sure what the smoking materials may be at your house, Rich, but I helped Dick with lots of kits and built a bunch too. Never saw a single Grandt ladder or wire grab. Of course, the kit detail spruces were so bad, one quickly binned them and DID substitute decent ladders and grabs. But they weren't in any kit I ever saw.
      A number of the car bodies were really well done, especially the Dreadnaught ends of various vintages. The rivets were pretty darn big, bigger than Athearn, but not terribly evident on a layout.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history








Bill Welch
 

I poured over the articles in RMJ by Ed Hawkins and Richard Hendrickson deciding which cars to model with these kits. I lowered one six-inches to do a Green & Orange EJ&E car with scratch built Superior doors using Walthers decals. Other cars I modeled that I can remember tonight are an ITC w/two level Dalmans; P&WV (black) and Southern w/8-foot doors, and a UP DD auto car.

One major frustration was that because of the modular tooling to achieve the mix of roofs, sides, and ends, there was often poor alignment between ends and sides or roof and ends. But despite this, the oversize rivets, and throwing away detail sprues, when the models were finished they had a very pleasing appearance.

It seems like I remember that they may have been so willing (or zealous) to combine the various components that they actually molded a car that prototypically was never built. I think it may have been John Nehrich who concluded this in one of his RPI publications.

Bill Welch


Vera Mills
 

Hello,

Referring to intro dates for C&BT, IMWX, and Intermountain 1937 Modified Kits, a survey of my C&BT Shops kits shows that my first box car arrived on 20 September 1990 with the first one having cast-on ladders arriving on 31 March 1999.  Overlapping did not occur.

My IMWX kits arrived on 21 June 2001 and the first Intermountain 1937 box cars arrived on 26 August 1998.  Both were late-comers, in the context of this discussion, to my railway.

With Santa Fe reefers, the first C&BT Shops one arrived on 22 February 1993 with the kits with grey ladders arriving 1 November 2001.  However, the latter were second hand which could indicate that the hinges were "lost".  Subsequently, the first reefer with grey ladders and door hinges arrived on 20 August 2008 and reefers with black ladders and door hinges arrived on 9 March 20123.  Once again, overlapping did not occur.  Not sure about wire grabs.

The first Intermountain Santa Fe reefers arrived via Long's on 5 March 1996.

I believe that the IMWX, and Intermountain 40' box cars were 1937 modified and C&BT Shops box cars were 1944.

Thank you for the opportunity to help establish Intro dates for C&BT, IMWX, and Intermountain kits as I needed to do a spread-sheet on the ladders and hinges for the C&BT Shops reefers..

Regards,

Glen Mills


Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Bill,

Absolutely. When C&BT introduced the 12-panel side cars, they offered them with 6, 7, and 8-foot doors, straight-panel roofs and 4/4 ends. I've never found prototypes for the 7 and 8-foot door cars, though I'm sure someone here will soon offer up some.

C&BT also offered their double-door car with a straight-panel roof and R-3/4 ends, a rare if not unprotypical combination.

There were other combinations of features that at best had one-off prototypes such as 6' door/straight-panel roof/R-3/4 end (NP only IIRC, unless you shave off the rivets).

I think C&BT got carried away with all the possibilities, or thought various combinations of features would still sell to "the vested interests" and others who didn't care about prototype accuracy.

Although I still have a few C&BT cars that were built stock, most were upgraded with Intermountain or other higher-quality parts, nearly all were repainted and decaled, and the trucks went into the garbage. The others will be reworked someday (maybe).

Beyond the poor detail parts, C&BT may have saturated their market niche. Higher-tier kits from IMWX, Intermountain and Branchline pretty much sealed C&BT's fate among serious modelers. I still grab them up when I find any for sale at train shows since the bodies are fodder for many projects I will probably never get to (longbows and O-scale British narrow gauge currently eating up much of my hobby time).

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff



On 9/2/17 10:06 PM, fgexbill@... [STMFC] wrote (in part):

 

. . . It seems like I remember that they may have been so willing (or zealous) to combine the various components that they actually molded a car that prototypically was never built. I think it may have been John Nehrich who concluded this in one of his RPI publications.

Bill Welch




hayden_tom@...
 

Does anyone know the status of Dick Schweiger and C&BT? 4 years ago, after seeing some new production product showing up on e-bay, especially from one seller in WA state, I corresponded with him and he was trying to sell the business. He even sent me several sets of new sprues (Tichy, I think) and some decals to use on the kits I owned.    I have not heard from him or about him since then. I still see some "new" product on e-bay, but could be from 4 years ago stock:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/C-BT-Shops-HO-7111-SanFran-Chief-Ship-Travel-Class-Rr33-Rd-4255-/230839839588?hash=item35bf206b64:m:mbViWxIQzYy4dJNKrmL9Z0w


Tom Hayden


Tim O'Connor
 


That is correct. There were 28 permutations in all, including a dozen 12-panel
box cars, most of which never existed. But I agree, when built and with better
details, they look a heck of a lot better than "Blue Box" kits. And I also cut
6" from the height of one car as you did, which was easier than I thought it
would be. Good cheap fodder, those kits. :-)

Tim O'




It seems like I remember that they may have been so willing (or zealous) to combine the various components that they actually molded a car that prototypically was never built. I think it may have been John Nehrich who concluded this in one of his RPI publications.

Bill Welch


Clark Propst
 

My feeble memory thinks I bought kits from the then defunct IMWX at the CNWHS meet in 92. Meaning they were already offered by Red Caboose?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


SUVCWORR@...
 

As of a few months ago the business was still for sale.  He has stock of some models and decals.  He has all the dies.  He was in discussion with a major car producer however their primary interest was in the X29B which was not finished and at that point, discussions ceased.

Dick has had some health issues.  He had a lung transplant several years ago.  Most of his time is now devoted to helping his wife manage her temp agency.

Rich Orr


-----Original Message-----
From: hayden_tom@... [STMFC]
To: STMFC
Sent: Sun, Sep 3, 2017 9:47 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Intro Dates for C&BT, IMWX, and InterMountain 1937 Modified Kits



Does anyone know the status of Dick Schweiger and C&BT? 4 years ago, after seeing some new production product showing up on e-bay, especially from one seller in WA state, I corresponded with him and he was trying to sell the business. He even sent me several sets of new sprues (Tichy, I think) and some decals to use on the kits I owned.    I have not heard from him or about him since then. I still see some "new" product on e-bay, but could be from 4 years ago stock:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/C-BT-Shops-HO-7111-SanFran-Chief-Ship-Travel-Class-Rr33-Rd-4255-/230839839588?hash=item35bf206b64:m:mbViWxIQzYy4dJNKrmL9Z0w


Tom Hayden




Tom Madden
 

The instruction sheet in the IMWX 1937 boxcar kit is copyright 1991. I first met Jerry Porter that year at the Denver National; NMRA convention ("Mountains of Fun in '91").IIRC he had just, or was about to, introduce the kit.


I don't think Dennis Lippert has chimed in yet on the C&BT Shops dates. When I discovered the rec.models.railroad newsgroup in 1992 Dennis was an active participant, and was doing assembly work for C&BT. I first became aware of C&BT's line of boxcar kits at a large train show at the fairgrounds in Pomona, CA, where Dick had test shots and lots of literature on display. My admittedly flawed memory says 1989 or 1990.


Tom Madden