MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model


devansprr
 

Gentlemen,

I found another photo on Shorpy I was not aware of:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/14279?size=_original

Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.

Even though this is a yard, I find it hard to believe that a yard crew would split up that string of ATSF box cars just to intersperse other RR box cars in it when it left (and it may have arrived as a consist.) I also suspect that the string must have been MTs - hard to believe a consist of loads would be 100% ATSF box cars. Loads no, MTs yes.

Taking Cover,
Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <devans1@...> wrote :

Dave,

I'll take responsibility for that quote, I don't think it was from Bruce.

I suspect the bias from MTY routing on mainlines was hidden in the data analyzed.

But it is very real.

It is very difficult to find a picture of a WB NYCentral boxcar on the PRR's Pittsburgh division. The NYCentral had the second largest boxcar fleet in the country, but on this stretch of what was one of the US's busiest mainlines (over 4,000 WB freight cars a day throughout WWII), the MTY's outnumbered loads by a significant margin, yet just about every western road (including NP) is captured in photos of WB trains. Bottom line is that an MTY NYCentral box car would never be routed west from Harrisburg to Altoona, and if one happened to be unloaded in Altoona, it would be sent EB up the Bald Eagle branch to Newberry Junction.

While loads were only about 25% of WB traffic on the division, I doubt east coast PRR freight agents faced with a flood of MTY Western road cars at the ports would use a NYCentral car for a WB load that wasn't terminating on the western part of the NYCentral. Why do that? Use a western car to get the mileage and stop the per diem, or a PRR car for that load. An MTY NYCentral car? Dump it on the Central at some obscure location in central PA so they have to work it back into their traffic patterns over a secondary line. Nasty...

If the wheel reports for that division could be analyzed in detail, I am confident the data would reveal that traffic pattern - unfortunately such data does not exist (not that any PRR fans have reported.)

I will readily confess that this is a second order effect, but the routing of MTY's can have implications similar to captive service and branch line traffic on freight car distribution, especially for the larger roads that had so many different interchange points such that MTY's did not need to be reverse routed for roads they interchanged with, and in some cases (rule 2-E) even with roads they did not interchange with (e.g. the Rule 2E GM&O/ B&O example I posted earlier.)

Since EB traffic on the PRR's Pittsburgh division was 98% loads, I expect G-N to work very well for EB non-mineral traffic (around 3,000 non-mineral loads per day).

The key, for me, is that modeling WB Pittsburgh Division freights should have consists very distinct for different freight trains, depending on their destination (towards Chicago or towards St. Louis), and a noticeable reduction in Eastern road cars because of MTY routing rather than the more random nature of where loads were destined. I suspect many others modeling Class I mainlines, and some branches of the majors, need to consider the same effect if their location and era had significant MTY traffic. Smaller roads with only a few interchanges and their branches - never mind...

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote :

That is not correct.  My theory applies to all foreign road boxcars w/o regard to lading, WWII years to somewhere in the mid 50’s, mainline routes. 

Dave Nelson

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 8:01 AM


The G-N model applies to loaded Box Cars….

Regards

Bruce


Tim O'Connor
 


Almost any large rail yard will have strings of home road cars. They
could be (1) awaiting repairs or (2) awaiting assignment. They park them
together to keep them away from cars in transit. They are NOT a consist.

Tim O'Connor




I found another photo on Shorpy I was not aware of:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/14279?size=_original

Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.

Even though this is a yard, I find it hard to believe that a yard crew would split up that string of ATSF box cars just to intersperse other RR box cars in it when it left (and it may have arrived as a consist.) I also suspect that the string must have been MTs - hard to believe a consist of loads would be 100% ATSF box cars. Loads no, MTs yes.

Taking Cover,
Dave Evans


devansprr
 

Tim,

Agree most yards collect empties for repair and assignment, but then they are usually not located in what appear, in the photo, to be either arrival or departure tracks. For the Major roads, most WWII era yard photos I have seen set the repairs apart from the rest of the yard.

I'll wait for an ATSF expert to weigh in, but using Google Earth and a 1952 historic aerial, Barstow yard was much smaller than it is today (less than 1/3rd the size) and does not look like a classification yard. Not big enough. The aerials make the case that Delano was standing on the southern span of the road bridge spanning the west end of the yard and photographing to the east. The passenger train area was further to the left (beyond the trees) - was there a major Harvey house in Barstow? The 1952 aerial shows what may be eight passenger tracks with platforms, and a significant building just north of those tracks - about as far away from the engine facilities and shops on the south side of the yard as they could get.

The aerial suggest Barstow was too small for any significant classification during WWII - it looks more like a division yard with relay tracks for through freights. 16 tracks at most for freight, and no evidence of any significant yard leads or drill tracks. Just looks like a division point where locomotives and cabooses could be changed out and brakes tested. Assuming ATSF was right hand running at Barstow, the trains in the right foreground are EB, and with the significant traffic (load vs MT) imbalance that happened on both coasts during WWII, a string of ATSF MT's heading east makes a lot of sense.

But full disclosure - in defense of your view that these home road cars have been set out for loads, is that Yermo was one of three major war department staging areas for west coast shipments of material into the Pacific theater during WWII (the depot remains today). Yermo consisted of two depots, one about 5 miles RR east of Barstow, and another 8 miles RR wast of Barstow.

So all of those ATSF box cars would be empties waiting to pick up a load for the ports into LA, or, they could be loads coming out of the depot about to head for the ports. Either way, they would represent a train movement with box car consist significantly diverging from the N-G theory, if you are inclined to apply the theory to each train (as opposed to characterizing the average for a major route over a period of time - which is how I intend to apply it.)

This does remind me of the Delano photo of one of the Chicago yards with a long string of at least eight wooden box cars with big white X's painted on the doors - which indicated ammo (making it clear not to hump, and to park them away from people and critical facilities) - that string was 100% CNW.

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., <timboconnor@...> wrote :

Almost any large rail yard will have strings of home road cars. They
could be (1) awaiting repairs or (2) awaiting assignment. They park them
together to keep them away from cars in transit. They are NOT a consist.

Tim O'Connor



John Barry
 

Dave,

Barstow was more than a Division Point Yard even during the Depression and WWII.  No, it wasn't the major classification yard that it became with the hump, but a lot of trains made up and broke down there.  At the time of Delano's 1943 photograph it belonged to the Arizona Division and was the Division Yard between the Mojave and Needles districts.  The Los Angeles Division's First District over Cajon began there and terminated in San Bernardino.  It was the point that traffic bound for LA points on Santa Fe trackage was interchanged from the UP (LA&SL) which had come on to Santa Fe tracks at Dagget, 8 miles east.  As I understand it, it was mostly block swapping, where traffic to/from the UP was cut into and out of trains.

The Santa Fe trains for the Valley Division ran in reverse block order on the LA First District and any blocks for the east were cut off and any blocks for NorCal dropped by West bounds before going over Cajon were added.  An Arizona Division engine took the place of the LA Div way car as an AZ Div way car went on the former head end where the LA Div engine had cut off.  Dwell times for LA to SF manifest freights like the NCX and EFX were on the order of two hours per System Circular 231, Freight Train Schedules, Nov 42 - May 44.  When the swap to/from connecting trains was complete, the NCX would pull westbound out of Barstow onto the Mojave District in proper block order for the Valley Division.  

Barstow was also the location for significant passenger train switching where the Scout, California Limited, and Grand Canyon would set out and pick up through cars, including express STMFC, for the northern sections of those trains.  The passenger depot was adjacent to CASA DEL DESIERTO which was active during the war.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736



From: "devans1@... [STMFC]"
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

 
Tim,

Agree most yards collect empties for repair and assignment, but then they are usually not located in what appear, in the photo, to be either arrival or departure tracks. For the Major roads, most WWII era yard photos I have seen set the repairs apart from the rest of the yard.

I'll wait for an ATSF expert to weigh in, but using Google Earth and a 1952 historic aerial, Barstow yard was much smaller than it is today (less than 1/3rd the size) and does not look like a classification yard. Not big enough. The aerials make the case that Delano was standing on the southern span of the road bridge spanning the west end of the yard and photographing to the east. The passenger train area was further to the left (beyond the trees) - was there a major Harvey house in Barstow? The 1952 aerial shows what may be eight passenger tracks with platforms, and a significant building just north of those tracks - about as far away from the engine facilities and shops on the south side of the yard as they could get.

The aerial suggest Barstow was too small for any significant classification during WWII - it looks more like a division yard with relay tracks for through freights. 16 tracks at most for freight, and no evidence of any significant yard leads or drill tracks. Just looks like a division point where locomotives and cabooses could be changed out and brakes tested. Assuming ATSF was right hand running at Barstow, the trains in the right foreground are EB, and with the significant traffic (load vs MT) imbalance that happened on both coasts during WWII, a string of ATSF MT's heading east makes a lot of sense.

But full disclosure - in defense of your view that these home road cars have been set out for loads, is that Yermo was one of three major war department staging areas for west coast shipments of material into the Pacific theater during WWII (the depot remains today). Yermo consisted of two depots, one about 5 miles RR east of Barstow, and another 8 miles RR wast of ! Barstow.

So all of those ATSF box cars would be empties waiting to pick up a load for the ports into LA, or, they could be loads coming out of the depot about to head for the ports. Either way, they would represent a train movement with box car consist significantly diverging from the N-G theory, if you are inclined to apply the theory to each train (as opposed to characterizing the average for a major route over a period of time - which is how I intend to apply it.)

This does remind me of the Delano photo of one of the Chicago yards with a long string of at least eight wooden box cars with big white X's painted on the doors - which indicated ammo (making it clear not to hump, and to park them away from people and critical facilities) - that string was 100% CNW.

Dave Evans

---In STMFC@..., wrote :

Almost any large rail yard will have strings of home road cars. They
could be (1) awaiting repairs or (2) awaiting assignment. They park them
together to keep them away from cars in transit. They are NOT a consist.

Tim O'Connor





devansprr
 

John,

Thank-you for the explanation. I am not familiar with California rail routes. I had forgotten that Barstow was really the junction of four lines, not just a simple division point. (SF and UP lines to the east, joint SF/UP west to SF, and SF and UP lines west to LA.)

Must have been a hopping place - and not very big to boot. (Compared to today's BNSF Barstow classification yard, and the UP yard in Yermo.) Talk about a yard master's challenge...

Dave Evans


Bruce Smith
 

Dave,


The N-G model does not apply to home road cars, or to individual trains.  No-one associated with it has ever claimed it did.


Regards

Bruce 

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... on behalf of devans1@... [STMFC] Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 1:04 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
 


Gentlemen,

I found another photo on Shorpy I was not aware of:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/14279?size=_original

Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.

Even though this is a yard, I find it hard to believe that a yard crew would split up that string of ATSF box cars just to intersperse other RR box cars in it when it left (and it may have arrived as a consist.) I also suspect that the string must have been MTs - hard to believe a consist of loads would be 100% ATSF box cars. Loads no, MTs yes.

Taking Cover,
Dave Evans 


Dave Nelson
 

From the initial question I specifically excluded home road cars from the distribution model.  Tim concurred.  Which is to say the photo of an ATSF yard showing gobs of ATSH boxcars is pretty irrelevant to the theory on the distribution of foreign road boxcars.

 

What I have said on more recent occasions about home road empties is that I thought a logical argument could be made for large numbers of home road boxcars to be set aside in protective service out of the way places where inbound loads were greatly exceeded by outbounds.  Small towns for lumber mills comes to mind.  OTOH, very large urban areas, such as Los Angeles, probably had many, many inbound boxcars taking loads to local manufacturing, warehouse, and consumption centers, potentially leaving enough empties each day that there would be less need for local railroads to hold all that many home road cars in protective service. 

 

AFAIK there are no large number of samples from small town America that could be used to tabulate a large enough sample to draw a firm conclusion as to whose cars carried outbound loads.  I think common sense rules here but this is clearly one of those matters where YMMV.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 11:04 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model



Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.


Dave Nelson
 

Ammo?  I thought that was shown to be cars reserved for LCL service.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 3:10 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

 



This does remind me of the Delano photo of one of the Chicago yards with a long string of at least eight wooden box cars with big white X's painted on the doors - which indicated ammo (making it clear not to hump, and to park them away from people and critical facilities) - that string was 100% CNW.

Dave Evans


Jack Mullen
 

Dave Nelson said:
Ammo?  I thought that was shown to be cars reserved for LCL service. "

Right you are, but this 'X for explosives'  idea is one of those railfan myths that just won't die.

The cars in question are CNW 15800-15998, even nos.  They're described in the ORER, 1940s vintage, as "Box, Trap". They were used in essentially captive service between C&NW freight houses.  There's a photo of some being switched at the C&NW freight house under the Merchandise Mart,  not the sort of place you'd want carloads of high explosive.

Jack Mullen
 


John Barry
 

Dave,

UP only had trackage rights into the LA basin. The UP's LA&SL came on to ATSF track at Dagget and left RR west of San Bernardino, I think at Riverside. The Mojave District was Santa Fe only Barstow to Mojave where it used trackage rights on the SP Mojave to Kern Junction, thence Santa Fe into Bakersfield. I've always thought of Barstow as a three way crossroads account the Santa Fe lines and the physical connection to the UP not involved. But you raise a good point that it was the operational interchange point for LA-Salt Lake traffic.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


707-490-9696 


PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 9/2/17, devans1@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
To: STMFC@...
Date: Saturday, September 2, 2017, 10:49 PM


 









John,

Thank-you
for the explanation. I am not familiar with California rail
routes. I had forgotten that Barstow was really the junction
of four lines, not just a simple division point. (SF and UP
lines to the east, joint SF/UP west to SF, and SF and UP
lines west to LA.)

Must
have been a hopping place - and not very big to boot.
(Compared to today's BNSF Barstow classification yard,
and the UP yard in Yermo.) Talk about a yard master's
challenge...

Dave Evans









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John Barry
 

Jack and Dave Nelson are correct about the CNW trap cars, which appear in another Delano photo of home road cars in a home road yard. Besides, how do you explain all the photos of munitions loading or unloading from cars without said X's. The explosive laden cars did get the appropriate explosives placards, but they were clean, tight cars from the general box pool. Records in the National Archives show a mix of today's cars involved in most shipments.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


707-490-9696 


PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736

--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 9/3/17, jack.f.mullen@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: RE: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
To: STMFC@...
Date: Sunday, September 3, 2017, 2:44 AM


 









Dave Nelson said:" Ammo? 
I thought that was shown to be cars reserved for LCL
service. "
Right
you are, but this 'X for explosives'  idea is one
of those railfan myths that just won't
die.
The
cars in question are CNW 15800-15998, even nos.
 They're described in the ORER, 1940s vintage, as
"Box, Trap". They were used in essentially captive
service between C&NW freight houses.  There's a
photo of some being switched at the C&NW freight house
under the Merchandise Mart,  not the sort of place
you'd want carloads of high
explosive.
Jack
Mullen 









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devansprr
 

Bruce,

I messed up - I have always agreed N-G does not apply to home road cars. I thought there was some debate about how far individual trains could diverge from it. My bad.

But the ATSF string being so close to the Yermo transportation storage depot does raise an interesting question about how the RR's would satisfy sudden demands for large quantities of MT's to move cargo to the ports as Convoys were loaded. Would a RR stockpile foreign road MT's for such calls, or would they effectively create a captive service fleet of home road cars? Interesting WWII consist question.

There really isn't any way to know if that string is MT or loaded... Based on John Barry's description of the traffic flowing through Barstow, I find it hard to believe they would have dedicated one of their main yard tracks to storing MT's for local distribution.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <smithbf@...> wrote :

Dave,


The N-G model does not apply to home road cars, or to individual trains.  No-one associated with it has ever claimed it did.


Regards

Bruce 

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: STMFC@... <STMFC@...> on behalf of devans1@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 1:04 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
 


Gentlemen,

I found another photo on Shorpy I was not aware of:

http://www.shorpy.com/node/14279?size=_original

Barstow, CA, 1943, ATSF yard.

Notice the string of ATSF XM's to the left of the hoppers - every box car is ATSF. In addition to that specific string, there is a real shortage of foreign road cars in this picture. Did Barstow have an MT yard?

I think we have all reached general agreement that the N-G distribution model for box cars is well supported by the data, at least for WWII.

I previously postulated that while the N-G model is good for the car distribution averages on trunk lines, I think this photo helps support the concept that it may not be accurate for individual trains with significant MT consists.

Even though this is a yard, I find it hard to believe that a yard crew would split up that string of ATSF box cars just to intersperse other RR box cars in it when it left (and it may have arrived as a consist.) I also suspect that the string must have been MTs - hard to believe a consist of loads would be 100% ATSF box cars. Loads no, MTs yes.

Taking Cover,
Dave Evans 


devansprr
 

Dave,

My bad - you are correct, and the close proximity of the Yermo distribution center (less than 10 miles east of Barstow), could be a perfect example of your post. My personal interest is WWII consists, of which data is very limited. The PRR had a similar installation just south of Harrisburg, and a smaller one just east of Altoona. I have wondered, in the midst of such a car shortage, how the RR's would fill the demand for cars as convoys were assembled.

The whole point of those distribution centers was to avoid RR congestion at the ports. I don't think a RR would hold foreign MT's for such service, but at the same time with a shortage of freight cars, I find it hard to believe they would hold their own cars out of revenue service waiting for the call.

The ATSF string at Barstow might be an example of such captive service for the transfer of cargo from the distribution centers to the ports, which fits in with what you describe - the distinguishing feature may be that we are seeing is a complete train of home road box cars, if these are loads (no way to know).

Dave Evans


devansprr
 

Jack,

Appreciate the clarification. I had not heard the X for explosives being debunked before. Good to know.

Dave Evans


Tim O'Connor
 

Dave

Yes, I thought so too. Downtown Chicago had an underground rail system
for moving freight around.


Ammo?  I thought that was shown to be cars reserved for LCL service.
 
Dave Nelson
 

From: STMFC@... [ mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2017 3:10 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
 


This does remind me of the Delano photo of one of the Chicago yards with a long string of at least eight wooden box cars with big white X's painted on the doors - which indicated ammo (making it clear not to hump, and to park them away from people and critical facilities) - that string was 100% CNW.

Dave Evans


devansprr
 

John,

I have mixed eras (SP <> UP) - I thought the SP had rights from Barstow to get to the Central Valley - obviously incorrect.

But the routing explains why the war department picked Yermo for the distribution center - it was the logical point to accumulate WB war materials for the pacific theater. From their the loads could be shipped to either Oakland or southern CA.

Now I am wondering if Marietta, PA was selected for a similar reason - shipments could quickly be sent to New York, Philly, Baltimore or Newport News/Norfolk.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <northbaylines@...> wrote :

Dave,

UP only had trackage rights into the LA basin. The UP's LA&SL came on to ATSF track at Dagget and left RR west of San Bernardino, I think at Riverside. The Mojave District was Santa Fe only Barstow to Mojave where it used trackage rights on the SP Mojave to Kern Junction, thence Santa Fe into Bakersfield. I've always thought of Barstow as a three way crossroads account the Santa Fe lines and the physical connection to the UP not involved. But you raise a good point that it was the operational interchange point for LA-Salt Lake traffic.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


707-490-9696 


PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736

--------------------------------------------

On Sat, 9/2/17, devans1@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
To: STMFC@...
Date: Saturday, September 2, 2017, 10:49 PM

John,

Thank-you
for the explanation. I am not familiar with California rail
routes. I had forgotten that Barstow was really the junction
of four lines, not just a simple division point. (SF and UP
lines to the east, joint SF/UP west to SF, and SF and UP
lines west to LA.)

Must
have been a hopping place - and not very big to boot.
(Compared to today's BNSF Barstow classification yard,
and the UP yard in Yermo.) Talk about a yard master's
challenge...

Dave Evans





Robert kirkham
 

Hi there,

 

Just an observation on the “no way to know” observation about whether cars are empty or loads.  In this case, I basically agree with that  conclusion because of the angle and imperfect focus of the image.  But when working on the railway, it was pretty easy to tell just by looking at the springs on the trucks.  When they are compressed – each coil ring is touching the one above/below – you know the car is full.  When there is space in between – (add a million caveats here)  there is a good basis to say it isn’t loaded.

 

Rob     

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 3, 2017 9:19 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: RE: [STMFC] MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model

 



Dave,

My bad - you are correct, and the close proximity of the Yermo distribution center (less than 10 miles east of Barstow), could be a perfect example of your post. My personal interest is WWII consists, of which data is very limited. The PRR had a similar installation just south of Harrisburg, and a smaller one just east of Altoona. I have wondered, in the midst of such a car shortage, how the RR's would fill the demand for cars as convoys were assembled.

The whole point of those distribution centers was to avoid RR congestion at the ports. I don't think a RR would hold foreign MT's for such service, but at the same time with a shortage of freight cars, I find it hard to believe they would hold their own cars out of revenue service waiting for the call.

The ATSF string at Barstow might be an example of such captive service for the transfer of cargo from the distribution centers to the ports, which fits in with what you describe - the distinguishing feature may be that we are seeing is a complete train of home road box cars, if these are loads (no way to know).

Dave Evans



Brian Termunde
 

I'm not at home with my reference material, so please feel free to correct any of my mistakes or omissions!

The Espee regarded California (and Oregon) as it's private turf, and tried very hard to prevent any other railroads from 'trespassing'. As the Santa Fe built west, the Espee built south and then east from Bakersfield, Mojave and Waterman (IIRC), which later became Barstow (which was named that after Santa Fe's one time president, William Barstow Strong) and met the onrushing Santa Fe at Needles (or thereabouts).

Santa Fe was able to get trackage rights from Espee, to Barstow, where their own line to Southern California was built. Santa Fe later purchased / traded their lines in Mexico for the SP's Needles - Mojave line (much simplified here), and obtained trackage rights from Mojave to Kern Junction where once again, the Santa Fe had it's own line to the Bay Area.

Still later, a predecessor line of the UP built south from Salt Lake to a junction with the Santa Fe at Daggett (RR west of Yermo and RR east of Barstow). The UP obtained trackage rights over the Santa Fe from Daggett to Riverside Junction, south (RR west) of San Berdoo.

UP NEVER had rights into the San Joaquin Valley, at least in the timeframe of this list.

Again, I've probably mess this up somewhat, but all of what I say is true, except the parts that aren't! And I only mean to add to John Barry's excellent summary, not to correct it in ANY way.

Take Care,
 
Brian R. Termunde
Midvale, Utah


-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC
To: STMFC
Sent: Sun, Sep 3, 2017 3:15 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Digest Number 11117

Re: MTY's breaking the N-G distribution model
Posted by: devans1@... devansprr
Date: Sun Sep 3, 2017 9:32 am ((PDT))

John, 

I have mixed eras (SP <> UP) - I thought the SP had rights from Barstow to get to the Central Valley - obviously incorrect. 

But the routing explains why the war department picked Yermo for the distribution center - it was the logical point to accumulate WB war materials for the pacific theater. From their the loads could be shipped to either Oakland or southern CA. 

Now I am wondering if Marietta, PA was selected for a similar reason - shipments could quickly be sent to New York, Philly, Baltimore or Newport News/Norfolk. 

Dave Evans 


---In STMFC@...,

Dave, 

UP only had trackage rights into the LA basin. The UP's LA&SL came on to ATSF track at Dagget and left RR west of San Bernardino, I think at Riverside. The Mojave District was Santa Fe only Barstow to Mojave where it used trackage rights on the SP Mojave to Kern Junction, thence Santa Fe into Bakersfield. I've always thought of Barstow as a three way crossroads account the Santa Fe lines and the physical connection to the UP not involved. But you raise a good point that it was the operational interchange point for LA-Salt Lake traffic. 

John Barry 

ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA