PRR X23, X25 and B&O M-26 photo


Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

Looking through the Emil Albrecht Collection on Don Strack’s Smugmug site, I found an excellent November 1945 shot of a relatively freshly repainted PRR X23 (517406), a distinctly more weathered PRR X25 and, in the middle, a nearly nuked B&O M-26 (267787? subclass?).

Two of the three cars shown have left opening doors.  The X25 has a patch panel to the right of the door, but not to the left.

The location appears to be Columbus, Ohio, as they are from a series of photos entitled “R.R. Scenes on Troop Train Home from Newport News, Virg. from Overseas”.  The preceding photos are clearly on the C&O, and this photo implies C&O tracks, or tracks nearby with the foreground sign “Chesapeake and Ohio North Shop”.  The sign over the B&O car reads “BELMONT CASKETS” and under that “LEAD COATED STEEL”. The Belmont Casket Co. was located in Columbus and was famous for their coffins.  The tower behind that appears to be the Leveque Tower in Columbus.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




rwitt_2000
 

Bruce,

The B&O box car is a M-26b a clone of the X29 as noted by the rivet patterns on the sides.

Regards,

Bob Witt


devansprr
 

Bruce,

What a goldmine. Curious what the tank car experts can tell us about:

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1946-Aug-Echo-to-Green-River/i-j8gGk2V/A

Seems pretty unique - looks to be insulated, and the flanges (?) at the tops of the expansion domes are different.

Dave Evans


Bruce Smith
 

Dave,

General American multi (probably 6) dome insulated wine tank car. GATX 434?  

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 8, 2017, at 4:37 PM, devans1@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Bruce,

What a goldmine. Curious what the tank car experts can tell us about:

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1946-Aug-Echo-to-Green-River/i-j8gGk2V/A

Seems pretty unique - looks to be insulated, and the flanges (?) at the tops of the expansion domes are different.

Dave Evans 



devansprr
 

Maybe not that unique? Two more:

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1946-Aug-Echo-to-Green-River/i-J269twF/A

GATX 991 (and that is not the car in the other picture, so he captured three of these...) Wonder what industry or customer was nearby/on-line?

Dave Evans


Bruce Smith
 

Dave,

That is left coast wine headed east.  Not local traffic.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."



On Sep 8, 2017, at 4:43 PM, devans1@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Maybe not that unique? Two more:

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1946-Aug-Echo-to-Green-River/i-J269twF/A

GATX 991 (and that is not the car in the other picture, so he captured three of these...) Wonder what industry or customer was nearby/on-line?

Dave Evans 



devansprr
 

Thanks Bruce.

Capturing 3 of those cars, mid-consist, might make the case of the danger of using photographs for consist data.

The vast majority of these photos are head end shots - for a UP steam locomotive modeler - what a treasure trove.

Having just browsed probably over 200 of these photos, the vast majority of freight cars captured in his photos are either at the head end, against the locomotive, or at the rear (small fraction of the total.) In a day when film wasn't that cheap, it is possible that the wine cars warranted a photo because they were so unique. Otherwise the film was saved primarily for locomotives and cabooses....

But the variety of XM's behind the engines probably does have some statistical significance.

The "weathering" of the cars is also educational - pretty dirty at a minimum, pretty faded reporting marks are not that uncommon.

Dave Evans


Aley, Jeff A
 

Here’s some more data for the Union Pacific’s mainline (same as the photos being referenced):

 

On Dec 6, 1947, freight conductor Frailey worked Extra 3940 East which included 4 cars of wine: GATX 991 [the car in the photo!], NATX 3350, NATX 3449, NATX 3807.

 

Conductor Traud, on unknown dates in October – December 1951, had a train with 2 cars of wine: CDLX 792, CDLX 869; another train with 2 cars of wine: GATX 415, GATX 1281; and a train with 1 car of wine: CDLX 894.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2017 2:50 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR X23, X25 and B&O M-26 photo

 

 

Dave,

 

That is left coast wine headed east.  Not local traffic.

 

Regards

Bruce

 

Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

https://www5.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."

 

 

On Sep 8, 2017, at 4:43 PM, devans1@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 



Maybe not that unique? Two more:

https://donstrack.smugmug.com/UtahRails/Emil-Albrecht-Photos/1946-Aug-Echo-to-Green-River/i-J269twF/A

GATX 991 (and that is not the car in the other picture, so he captured three of these...) Wonder what industry or customer was nearby/on-line?

Dave Evans 

 


Aley, Jeff A
 

Dave,

 

               I’m sorry I didn’t see your comment, or I would have included the data with my response from the freight conductor’s books.

 

For conductor Traud (1951), for his second train, the wine cars were cars 14 and 32 out of 66 cars.  On his 30th train, the wine cars were cars 7 and 8 out of 70.  On his 32nd train, the wine car was 68 out of 78.  I believe all the cars were counted from the caboose forwards, so the latter car was 10th from the head-end; 68th from the caboose.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2017 3:17 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR X23, X25 and B&O M-26 photo

 

 

Thanks Bruce.

Capturing 3 of those cars, mid-consist, might make the case of the danger of using photographs for consist data.

The vast majority of these photos are head end shots - for a UP steam locomotive modeler - what a treasure trove.

Having just browsed probably over 200 of these photos, the vast majority of freight cars captured in his photos are either at the head end, against the locomotive, or at the rear (small fraction of the total.) In a day when film wasn't that cheap, it is possible that the wine cars warranted a photo because they were so unique. Otherwise the film was saved primarily for locomotives and cabooses....

But the variety of XM's behind the engines probably does have some statistical significance.

The "weathering" of the cars is also educational - pretty dirty at a minimum, pretty faded reporting marks are not that uncommon.

Dave Evans


devansprr
 

Jeff,

Out of how many trains? Surely there wasn't a wine car in every EB freight? Or was wine that major of a product?

Dave


devansprr
 

Thank-you Jeff - our posts were almost simultaneous.

So it looks like his books logged 5 wine cars out of at least 32 trains, about 70 cars each - so five out of over 2,240 cars - less than 0.3% (1 in 400.)

If we assume that Conductor Traud's trains were similar in consist to the trains photographed by Emil Albrecht, then that makes a pretty convincing case that he photographed those cars because they were unusual. No way to prove this, but it is highly likely considering that I would estimate that over 90% of his photographs had locomotives in them, and many of them are solely of locomotives.

Dave Evans


---In STMFC@..., <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote :

Dave,

 

               I’m sorry I didn’t see your comment, or I would have included the data with my response from the freight conductor’s books.

 

For conductor Traud (1951), for his second train, the wine cars were cars 14 and 32 out of 66 cars.  On his 30th train, the wine cars were cars 7 and 8 out of 70.  On his 32nd train, the wine car was 68 out of 78.  I believe all the cars were counted from the caboose forwards, so the latter car was 10th from the head-end; 68th from the caboose.

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2017 3:17 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR X23, X25 and B&O M-26 photo

 

 

Thanks Bruce.

Capturing 3 of those cars, mid-consist, might make the case of the danger of using photographs for consist data.

The vast majority of these photos are head end shots - for a UP steam locomotive modeler - what a treasure trove.

Having just browsed probably over 200 of these photos, the vast majority of freight cars captured in his photos are either at the head end, against the locomotive, or at the rear (small fraction of the total.) In a day when film wasn't that cheap, it is possible that the wine cars warranted a photo because they were so unique. Otherwise the film was saved primarily for locomotives and cabooses....

But the variety of XM's behind the engines probably does have some statistical significance.

The "weathering" of the cars is also educational - pretty dirty at a minimum, pretty faded reporting marks are not that uncommon.

Dave Evans


devansprr
 

PS,

For the experts - was wine shipped this way during WWII? And was production and/or civilian consumption reduced due to wartime restrictions?

At 1 in 400 cars, a good case could be made for having at least one wine car on a WWII era PRR trunk line layout. I had kind of written off the idea - haven't seen any photos of wine cars in the east coast during WWII, but then WWII photos of east RR's are really scarce. I don't think Delano spent any significant time east of Indiana, if any (I think his east coast photos were pre-war farm service photos with only a few that were rail related.)

Dave Evans


Bruce Smith
 

Dave,


I've been arguing for some time and others have agreed that cars got pretty dirty in the steam era and especially during WWII.


Regards

Bruce 

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


​The "weathering" of the cars is also educational - pretty dirty at a minimum, pretty faded reporting marks are not that uncommon. 

Dave Evans


devansprr
 

Bruce,

I agree, and perhaps a obvious observation to this group - but when you look at some of Delano's Proviso yard photos there are at least some freshly painted cars, or at least they appear to be recently painted (or perhaps washed by a heavy rain?) I have been wondering just how many (or few) cars to leave un-weathered, or lightly weathered for a WWII layout. Delano's photos had convinced me that at least 5, and maybe 10 percent should have minimal weathering.

But in this collection - I am not sure I have spotted a single clean car, and a bunch where the reporting marks are pretty hard to make out - even when they are big enough to be legible. I have wondered how much of the "Weathering" was actually just soot from the last few days run, easily washed off in a strong rain... Soft coal ash is often sticky (constituents not fully burned), so the airflow may not knock it off the sides.

I think in some of Delano's Proviso yard pictures there was evidence of snow on the roofs of some cars (recent arrivals from? - likely moving through a damp or wet environment) and I do not recall so many reporting marks being so hard to read - so I am wondering if recent, but temporary, soot accumulation was a significant component of WWII "weathering."

Dave Evans


Aley, Jeff A
 

Dave,

 

               In one of Tony Thompson’s recent blog postings, I was struck by the appearance of a flat car load of lumber.  There was a significant coating of soot on the top of the load.

               If I assume that this car was a “roller” and roamed the rails for a three or four weeks, that would indicate that any car over a month old should have a pretty grimy roof.

 

The photo may be seen here:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oXGAZ80oqjg/VW46BFgipSI/AAAAAAAAJHQ/8040YOtxqPI/s1600/Celanese%2Bcolor.jpg

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2017 7:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR X23, X25 and B&O M-26 photo

 

 

Bruce,

I agree, and perhaps a obvious observation to this group - but when you look at some of Delano's Proviso yard photos there are at least some freshly painted cars, or at least they appear to be recently painted (or perhaps washed by a heavy rain?) I have been wondering just how many (or few) cars to leave un-weathered, or lightly weathered for a WWII layout. Delano's photos had convinced me that at least 5, and maybe 10 percent should have minimal weathering.

But in this collection - I am not sure I have spotted a single clean car, and a bunch where the reporting marks are pretty hard to make out - even when they are big enough to be legible. I have wondered how much of the "Weathering" was actually just soot from the last few days run, easily washed off in a strong rain... Soft coal ash is often sticky (constituents not fully burned), so the airflow may not knock it off the sides.

I think in some of Delano's Proviso yard pictures there was evidence of snow on the roofs of some cars (recent arrivals from? - likely moving through a damp or wet environment) and I do not recall so many reporting marks being so hard to read - so I am wondering if recent, but temporary, soot accumulation was a significant component of WWII "weathering."

Dave Evans


Tony Thompson
 

It would only take a few miles near a steam engine being badly fired to do that. I don't think it typical.
Tony Thompson 


On Sep 9, 2017, at 10:04 PM, 'Aley, Jeff A' Jeff.A.Aley@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Dave,

 

               In one of Tony Thompson’s recent blog postings, I was struck by the appearance of a flat car load of lumber.  There was a significant coating of soot on the top of the load.

               If I assume that this car was a “roller” and roamed the rails for a three or four weeks, that would indicate that any car over a month old should have a pretty grimy roof.

 

The photo may be seen here:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oXGAZ80oqjg/VW46BFgipSI/AAAAAAAAJHQ/8040YOtxqPI/s1600/Celanese%2Bcolor.jpg

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2017 7:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR X23, X25 and B&O M-26 photo

 

 

Bruce,

I agree, and perhaps a obvious observation to this group - but when you look at some of Delano's Proviso yard photos there are at least some freshly painted cars, or at least they appear to be recently painted (or perhaps washed by a heavy rain?) I have been wondering just how many (or few) cars to leave un-weathered, or lightly weathered for a WWII layout. Delano's photos had convinced me that at least 5, and maybe 10 percent should have minimal weathering.

But in this collection - I am not sure I have spotted a single clean car, and a bunch where the reporting marks are pretty hard to make out - even when they are big enough to be legible. I have wondered how much of the "Weathering" was actually just soot from the last few days run, easily washed off in a strong rain... Soft coal ash is often sticky (constituents not fully burned), so the airflow may not knock it off the sides.

I think in some of Delano's Proviso yard pictures there was evidence of snow on the roofs of some cars (recent arrivals from? - likely moving through a damp or wet environment) and I do not recall so many reporting marks being so hard to read - so I am wondering if recent, but temporary, soot accumulation was a significant component of WWII "weathering."

Dave Evans


Charles Morrill
 

Judging from the diesel age lettering on the cabooses in the background there would have not been many steam engines around to provide the “soot”.
Charlie

From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 12:57 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR X23, X25 and B&O M-26 photo
 


It would only take a few miles near a steam engine being badly fired to do that. I don't think it typical.
Tony Thompson


On Sep 9, 2017, at 10:04 PM, 'Aley, Jeff A' Jeff.A.Aley@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Dave,

               In one of Tony Thompson’s recent blog postings, I was struck by the appearance of a flat car load of lumber.  There was a significant coating of soot on the top of the load.

               If I assume that this car was a “roller” and roamed the rails for a three or four weeks, that would indicate that any car over a month old should have a pretty grimy roof.

The photo may be seen here:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oXGAZ80oqjg/VW46BFgipSI/AAAAAAAAJHQ/8040YOtxqPI/s1600/Celanese%2Bcolor.jpg

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2017 7:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR X23, X25 and B&O M-26 photo

 

Bruce,

I agree, and perhaps a obvious observation to this group - but when you look at some of Delano's Proviso yard photos there are at least some freshly painted cars, or at least they appear to be recently painted (or perhaps washed by a heavy rain?) I have been wondering just how many (or few) cars to leave un-weathered, or lightly weathered for a WWII layout. Delano's photos had convinced me that at least 5, and maybe 10 percent should have minimal weathering.

But in this collection - I am not sure I have spotted a single clean car, and a bunch where the reporting marks are pretty hard to make out - even when they are big enough to be legible. I have wondered how much of the "Weathering" was actually just soot from the last few days run, easily washed off in a strong rain... Soft coal ash is often sticky (constituents not fully burned), so the airflow may not knock it off the sides.

I think in some of Delano's Proviso yard pictures there was evidence of snow on the roofs of some cars (recent arrivals from? - likely moving through a damp or wet environment) and I do not recall so many reporting marks being so hard to read - so I am wondering if recent, but temporary, soot accumulation was a significant component of WWII "weathering."

Dave Evans


Armand Premo
 

Again it's pretty much of individual taste . Overly weathered cars tend to stand out  much like brightly colored cars. Moderately weathered cars  are  my preference Too each it's own. Armand Premo

On Sun, Sep 10, 2017 at 9:17 AM, 'Charles Morrill' badlands@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
 

Judging from the diesel age lettering on the cabooses in the background there would have not been many steam engines around to provide the “soot”.
Charlie
From: Tony Thompson tony@... [STMFC]
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 12:57 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR X23, X25 and B&O M-26 photo
 


It would only take a few miles near a steam engine being badly fired to do that. I don't think it typical.
Tony Thompson


On Sep 9, 2017, at 10:04 PM, 'Aley, Jeff A' Jeff.A.Aley@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Dave,

               In one of Tony Thompson’s recent blog postings, I was struck by the appearance of a flat car load of lumber.  There was a significant coating of soot on the top of the load.

               If I assume that this car was a “roller” and roamed the rails for a three or four weeks, that would indicate that any car over a month old should have a pretty grimy roof.

The photo may be seen here:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oXGAZ80oqjg/VW46BFgipSI/AAAAAAAAJHQ/8040YOtxqPI/s1600/Celanese%2Bcolor.jpg

Regards,

-Jeff

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2017 7:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR X23, X25 and B&O M-26 photo

 

Bruce,

I agree, and perhaps a obvious observation to this group - but when you look at some of Delano's Proviso yard photos there are at least some freshly painted cars, or at least they appear to be recently painted (or perhaps washed by a heavy rain?) I have been wondering just how many (or few) cars to leave un-weathered, or lightly weathered for a WWII layout. Delano's photos had convinced me that at least 5, and maybe 10 percent should have minimal weathering.

But in this collection - I am not sure I have spotted a single clean car, and a bunch where the reporting marks are pretty hard to make out - even when they are big enough to be legible. I have wondered how much of the "Weathering" was actually just soot from the last few days run, easily washed off in a strong rain... Soft coal ash is often sticky (constituents not fully burned), so the airflow may not knock it off the sides.

I think in some of Delano's Proviso yard pictures there was evidence of snow on the roofs of some cars (recent arrivals from? - likely moving through a damp or wet environment) and I do not recall so many reporting marks being so hard to read - so I am wondering if recent, but temporary, soot accumulation was a significant component of WWII "weathering."

Dave Evans



Tim O'Connor
 

Jeff

A single trip through all of the tunnels on the SP's mountain grades in Oregon
and California could definitely deposit a good load of soot onto a freight car.
It doesn't require weeks. :-) Cool photo, and definitely a good modeling idea!

Tim O'


In one of Tony Thompson’s recent blog postings, I was struck by the appearance of a flat car load of lumber. There was a significant coating of soot on the top of the load. If I assume that this car was a “roller� and roamed the rails for a three or four weeks, that would indicate that any car over a month old should have a pretty grimy roof.
 
The photo may be seen here:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oXGAZ80oqjg/VW46BFgipSI/AAAAAAAAJHQ/8040YOtxqPI/s1600/Celanese%2Bcolor.jpg
 
Regards,
 
-Jeff


Greg Martin
 

Hey Yuze Gize,
 
In my opinion it doesn't have to take a badly fired steam engine to have the amount of crud, be it steam soot or spent diesel smoke to accumulate on the top of a load of lumber like this. The scene posted ~appears~ to be Eugene and the origin of the load might likely be one of SP's coastal lines like Tillamook, and with the amount of precipitation and tunnels that the train would have to traverse this could be a two day occurrence. The precipitation embeds the crud into the top layers of lumber on it way to Brooklyn then Eugene and then points eat over the tunnels on the Willamette past or over Mount Ashland... Next Roseville and choose your poison boys the Sierra Nevada's, the Great Salt Lake or the Tehachapi's.  It get cruddy, it stays cruddy and if you are a young man of  twenty something and you have to strip these cars and prep for the lumber lines in the yard flipping the top boards and re-banding the units make you a pretty grungy guy when you head home. SO believe it this is weathering 101.
 
I will agree with Armand, weathering is a matter of choice but realism is realism and as they say model from photos...
 
Greg Martin  
 
Eventually all things merge into one and a river runs through it.
Norman Maclean
 
Tony Thompson writes:

"It would only take a few miles near a steam engine being badly fired to do that. I don't think it typical.
Tony Thompson"