Open Hopper Turned Covered Hopper?


James McDonald
 

HI Garth,

That’s a very good suggestion, but in 1930 there were apparently still 100 of the RFP 3401 cars rostered, while there were simultaneously 80 of the RFP 3506-3590 series so it doesn’t look like the 3401 series were the donor cars.

Take care,

James

On Sep 27, 2017, at 5:02 PM, STMFC@yahoogroups.com wrote:
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: Open Hopper Turned Covered Hopper?
Posted by: "Garth Groff" sarahsan@embarqmail.com ggg9y
Date: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:02 pm ((PDT))

James,

Very interesting data. Thank you.

You say that the 1922 and 1923 cars were rebodied. Despite the change in king pin distance (either of which could have been in error, or fudged just like the capacities), could the later cars have been rebuilds of the original second-hand cars? Consider there were 105 of the 3401 series. Remove 85 cars for rebuilding, and you have just 20 left. There were 18 of the 3401 series in 1954 and 16 in 1958. That’s pretty close, and a bit suspicious.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff


Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

James,

Very interesting data. Thank you.

You say that the 1922 and 1923 cars were rebodied. Despite the change in king pin distance (either of which could have been in error, or fudged just like the capacities), could the later cars have been rebuilds of the original second-hand cars? Consider there were 105 of the 3401 series. Remove 85 cars for rebuilding, and you have just 20 left. There were 18 of the 3401 series in 1954 and 16 in 1958. That’s pretty close, and a bit suspicious.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On Sep 27, 2017, at 8:11 AM, James McDonald james@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

Hello all,

Now that the provenance of the RF&P covered hoppers is the discussion rather than their post-list disposition, I can be more forthcoming. 

The RF&P’s first open hoppers were purchased second-hand in 1916. Previously it had employed gondolas, some with hopper bottoms, for its aggregate loads. The hoppers were in the series RF&P 3401-3505, 105 cars in number, with a 1667 cuft capacity. These cars were originally built in 1905 by Standard Steel Car Co. for the Quemahoning Coal Company. Their interior length was 30’ 3”. The distance between truck kingpins was 21’ 9”. Later editions of RF&P documents refer to them having 1700 cuft capacity, but without any change in car dimensions. The ORER cites them as having 30’ 0” interior length.

The next arrivals were the 50 cars RF&P 3506-3555. RF&P data indicates that the cars were rebodied in 1922 by Pressed Steel Car Co. Some data, such as the photo to which Eric posted a link, indicate that the rebodying work may have begun in 1921 so perhaps it merely finished in 1922. These cars were reportedly also placed on cast trucks taken from the RF&P 3200 series gondolas, which were being removed from the roster. The interior length of the 3506 series was 30’ 6”. The kingpins were 21’ 11” apart. They are listed in the ORER and at least one RF&P document as 1880 cubic feet (consistent with USRA hoppers), but actual cars appear to be stenciled 1900 cuft.

In 1923 the RF&P apparently had a further 35 cars, RF&P 3556-3590, rebodied by Richmond Car Works. They, too, were put on cast trucks from the 3200 series gondolas. Their interior length was 29’ 11.25”. The kingpin distance was 21’ 9”. The ORER lists them as 1880 cuft, but RFP 3572, at least, was stenciled 1773 cuft. 

Based on the lower cubic footage of RFP 7006, and the fact that 7001-7004 all came from the 357x range, I suspect it came from the 3556-3590 series. 

Photos of RF&P two bay hoppers in the above series are very rare, so it’s hard to generalize, but I suspect the ladder was added to 7006 during its rebuild to a covered hopper. I’ve not encountered a photo of another RF&P 2-bay hopper in the likely donor pool with ladders instead of grabs. 

The note that the RFP 3506 and RFP 3556 series were both rebuilt, not built, in 1922-23 points to the possibility that these cars used frames from older hoppers but I’ve been unable to uncover any information in company records to support this. If anyone has further insight here, I would appreciate hearing from you. 

Note that in the 1930 ORER, the RFP 3506 and RFP 3556 series appear under a single listing, which uses the measurements of the longer RFP 3506 series cars. They are split out into separate listings in subsequent editions. The measurements given in the ORER are often not consistent with data stenciled on the cars nor in documentation from the railroad’s mechanical department. This was common with RF&P hoppers for some reason. 

All the best,

James

=-=-=
James McDonald
Greenbelt, MD


James McDonald
 

Hello all,

Now that the provenance of the RF&P covered hoppers is the discussion rather than their post-list disposition, I can be more forthcoming.

The RF&P’s first open hoppers were purchased second-hand in 1916. Previously it had employed gondolas, some with hopper bottoms, for its aggregate loads. The hoppers were in the series RF&P 3401-3505, 105 cars in number, with a 1667 cuft capacity. These cars were originally built in 1905 by Standard Steel Car Co. for the Quemahoning Coal Company. Their interior length was 30’ 3”. The distance between truck kingpins was 21’ 9”. Later editions of RF&P documents refer to them having 1700 cuft capacity, but without any change in car dimensions. The ORER cites them as having 30’ 0” interior length.

The next arrivals were the 50 cars RF&P 3506-3555. RF&P data indicates that the cars were rebodied in 1922 by Pressed Steel Car Co. Some data, such as the photo to which Eric posted a link, indicate that the rebodying work may have begun in 1921 so perhaps it merely finished in 1922. These cars were reportedly also placed on cast trucks taken from the RF&P 3200 series gondolas, which were being removed from the roster. The interior length of the 3506 series was 30’ 6”. The kingpins were 21’ 11” apart. They are listed in the ORER and at least one RF&P document as 1880 cubic feet (consistent with USRA hoppers), but actual cars appear to be stenciled 1900 cuft.

In 1923 the RF&P apparently had a further 35 cars, RF&P 3556-3590, rebodied by Richmond Car Works. They, too, were put on cast trucks from the 3200 series gondolas. Their interior length was 29’ 11.25”. The kingpin distance was 21’ 9”. The ORER lists them as 1880 cuft, but RFP 3572, at least, was stenciled 1773 cuft.

Based on the lower cubic footage of RFP 7006, and the fact that 7001-7004 all came from the 357x range, I suspect it came from the 3556-3590 series.

Photos of RF&P two bay hoppers in the above series are very rare, so it’s hard to generalize, but I suspect the ladder was added to 7006 during its rebuild to a covered hopper. I’ve not encountered a photo of another RF&P 2-bay hopper in the likely donor pool with ladders instead of grabs.

The note that the RFP 3506 and RFP 3556 series were both rebuilt, not built, in 1922-23 points to the possibility that these cars used frames from older hoppers but I’ve been unable to uncover any information in company records to support this. If anyone has further insight here, I would appreciate hearing from you.

Note that in the 1930 ORER, the RFP 3506 and RFP 3556 series appear under a single listing, which uses the measurements of the longer RFP 3506 series cars. They are split out into separate listings in subsequent editions. The measurements given in the ORER are often not consistent with data stenciled on the cars nor in documentation from the railroad’s mechanical department. This was common with RF&P hoppers for some reason.

All the best,

James

=-=-=
James McDonald
Greenbelt, MD

On Sep 26, 2017, at 2:55 PM, STMFC@yahoogroups.com wrote:


Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Open Hopper Turned Covered Hopper?
Posted by: "Eric Hansmann" eric@hansmanns.org wvrail
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:43 am ((PDT))

The RF&P October 1926 ORER listing includes two hopper series.



3401-3505 :: 100 cars with 1667 cubic capacity, 30-foot interior length, and
10-foot height to eave

3506-3590 :: 80 cars with 1880 cubic capacity, 30-foot, 6-inch interior
length, and 10-foot, 10-inch height to eave



I suspect RF&P sand car 7006 from the photo on eBay was converted from a
hopper in the 3401-3505 series. Note the angle of the center slope sheets is
similar to that used on earlier hopper designs. Here's the link to RF&P 7006
again.




<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Richmond-Fredericksburg-Potomac-RF-P-7006-converted
-covered-hopper-8x10-photo/372085206789?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.
MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D47507%26meid%3D5c25fea7069d4044ac18d9e72e9dc5fe%26pid%3
D100623%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D122722159904&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1>
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Richmond-Fredericksburg-Potomac-RF-P-7006-converted-
covered-hopper-8x10-photo/372085206789?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.M
BE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D47507%26meid%3D5c25fea7069d4044ac18d9e72e9dc5fe%26pid%3D
100623%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D122722159904&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1



Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN


rwitt_2000
 

I agree with Eric that the car with number 7008 looks a lot like a B&O class N-12 with end sills and a built date of 1922 supports that assumption. The use of ladders rather than hand holds and the use of a style and hand holds on the left side of the hopper is another B&O characteristic for stake side twin hoppers.

Regards,

Bob


Eric Hansmann
 

The RF&P October 1926 ORER listing includes two hopper series.

 

3401-3505 :: 100 cars with 1667 cubic capacity, 30-foot interior length, and 10-foot height to eave

3506-3590 :: 80 cars with 1880 cubic capacity, 30-foot, 6-inch interior length, and 10-foot, 10-inch height to eave

 

I suspect RF&P sand car 7006 from the photo on eBay was converted from a hopper in the 3401-3505 series. Note the angle of the center slope sheets is similar to that used on earlier hopper designs. Here's the link to RF&P 7006 again.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Richmond-Fredericksburg-Potomac-RF-P-7006-converted-covered-hopper-8x10-photo/372085206789?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D47507%26meid%3D5c25fea7069d4044ac18d9e72e9dc5fe%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D122722159904&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 


From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 6:28 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Open Hopper Turned Covered Hopper?

 




Upon magnification, the built date looks like 3-22. The heavy end sills are similar to pre-USRA hopper designs. The ladders remind me of a B&O hopper class.

 

Here's an RF&P hopper with more of a USRA look. You might need to copy the link into a WORD doc to make it complete.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Richmond-Fredericksburg-Potomac-RF-P-3549-USRA-design-hopper-8x10-photo/122722159904?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D47507%26meid%3Db90139c3858b4a7e92240bf05811cb8a%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D372085206789&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1

 

 

Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

On September 26, 2017 at 3:00 AM "Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

Bob,

 

Not apparently from our era. The reweigh date is 6-68. My 1958 ORER does not list this group of cars. At that time the RF&P owned 16 1700 cubic foot hoppers in series 3402-3501; 48 of 1880 cubic feet in series 3506-3555; and 30 of the same dimensions in series 3561-3590. The latter two series were USRA clones from the 1920s according to Richard Hendrickson.

 

The car in question seems to be one of the USRA clones. Though I can’t read all the small lettering, it does say the car is restricted to sand loading service (note the spillage under the car) with a return location of Dillwyn, Virginia. Dillwyn was at the end (literally) of the C&O Dillwyn subdivision (now the Buckingham Branch Railroad) where there was a sand loader owned by the Willis Sand Co., a division of the Kyanite Mining Corporation. The sand was a by-prodict from their kyanite mine on nearby Willis Mountain. The loader track at Dillwyn was often crowded with covered hoppers up into the 1980s, among them similar rebuilt RF&P covered hoppers of a different class. The loader and track are still there, though no longer in use.

 

Though I can’t say for certain, I believe RF&P 7006 was in company service (though going off-line) for carrying locomotive sand.

 

Yours Aye,

 

 

Garth Groff

 

On Sep 26, 2017, at 2:00 AM, thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

This covered hopper appears to be a conversion from an open top hopper, especially considering the bays:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does anyone know about the history of this or other (assumed) cars in the series?

 

 

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

Bob Chaparro

 

Hemet, CA

 

 

 

 

 

 



James McDonald
 

Hi Bob and Garth,

I can confirm that the car in question, and its seven brethren also converted from open hoppers, was in use for locomotive sand exactly as Garth describes. Their conversion happened after the time of this list.

All the best,

James
=-=-=
James McDonald
Greenbelt, MD.

On Sep 26, 2017, at 7:05 AM, STMFC@yahoogroups.com wrote:

________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: Open Hopper Turned Covered Hopper?
Posted by: "Garth Groff" sarahsan@embarqmail.com ggg9y
Date: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:00 am ((PDT))

Bob,

Not apparently from our era. The reweigh date is 6-68. My 1958 ORER does not list this group of cars. At that time the RF&P owned 16 1700 cubic foot hoppers in series 3402-3501; 48 of 1880 cubic feet in series 3506-3555; and 30 of the same dimensions in series 3561-3590. The latter two series were USRA clones from the 1920s according to Richard Hendrickson.

The car in question seems to be one of the USRA clones. Though I can’t read all the small lettering, it does say the car is restricted to sand loading service (note the spillage under the car) with a return location of Dillwyn, Virginia. Dillwyn was at the end (literally) of the C&O Dillwyn subdivision (now the Buckingham Branch Railroad) where there was a sand loader owned by the Willis Sand Co., a division of the Kyanite Mining Corporation. The sand was a by-prodict from their kyanite mine on nearby Willis Mountain. The loader track at Dillwyn was often crowded with covered hoppers up into the 1980s, among them similar rebuilt RF&P covered hoppers of a different class. The loader and track are still there, though no longer in use.

Though I can’t say for certain, I believe RF&P 7006 was in company service (though going off-line) for carrying locomotive sand.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On Sep 26, 2017, at 2:00 AM, thecitrusbelt@yahoo.com [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:





This covered hopper appears to be a conversion from an open top hopper, especially considering the bays:




http://www.ebay.com/itm/Richmond-Fredericksburg-Potomac-RF-P-7006-converted-covered-hopper-8x10-photo-/372085206789?hash=item56a201af05:g:fZ0AAOSwLdNZxvP2 <http://www.ebay.com/itm/Richmond-Fredericksburg-Potomac-RF-P-7006-converted-covered-hopper-8x10-photo-/372085206789?hash=item56a201af05:g:fZ0AAOSwLdNZxvP2>



Does anyone know about the history of this or other (assumed) cars in the series?



Thanks.



Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Eric Hansmann
 

Upon magnification, the built date looks like 3-22. The heavy end sills are similar to pre-USRA hopper designs. The ladders remind me of a B&O hopper class.


Here's an RF&P hopper with more of a USRA look. You might need to copy the link into a WORD doc to make it complete.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Richmond-Fredericksburg-Potomac-RF-P-3549-USRA-design-hopper-8x10-photo/122722159904?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D47507%26meid%3Db90139c3858b4a7e92240bf05811cb8a%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D372085206789&_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1



Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN



On September 26, 2017 at 3:00 AM "Garth Groff sarahsan@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

Bob,

Not apparently from our era. The reweigh date is 6-68. My 1958 ORER does not list this group of cars. At that time the RF&P owned 16 1700 cubic foot hoppers in series 3402-3501; 48 of 1880 cubic feet in series 3506-3555; and 30 of the same dimensions in series 3561-3590. The latter two series were USRA clones from the 1920s according to Richard Hendrickson.

The car in question seems to be one of the USRA clones. Though I can’t read all the small lettering, it does say the car is restricted to sand loading service (note the spillage under the car) with a return location of Dillwyn, Virginia. Dillwyn was at the end (literally) of the C&O Dillwyn subdivision (now the Buckingham Branch Railroad) where there was a sand loader owned by the Willis Sand Co., a division of the Kyanite Mining Corporation. The sand was a by-prodict from their kyanite mine on nearby Willis Mountain. The loader track at Dillwyn was often crowded with covered hoppers up into the 1980s, among them similar rebuilt RF&P covered hoppers of a different class. The loader and track are still there, though no longer in use.

Though I can’t say for certain, I believe RF&P 7006 was in company service (though going off-line) for carrying locomotive sand.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On Sep 26, 2017, at 2:00 AM, thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:




 


This covered hopper appears to be a conversion from an open top hopper, especially considering the bays:


 



 


Does anyone know about the history of this or other (assumed) cars in the series?

 


Thanks.

 


Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


 




Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Bob,

Not apparently from our era. The reweigh date is 6-68. My 1958 ORER does not list this group of cars. At that time the RF&P owned 16 1700 cubic foot hoppers in series 3402-3501; 48 of 1880 cubic feet in series 3506-3555; and 30 of the same dimensions in series 3561-3590. The latter two series were USRA clones from the 1920s according to Richard Hendrickson.

The car in question seems to be one of the USRA clones. Though I can’t read all the small lettering, it does say the car is restricted to sand loading service (note the spillage under the car) with a return location of Dillwyn, Virginia. Dillwyn was at the end (literally) of the C&O Dillwyn subdivision (now the Buckingham Branch Railroad) where there was a sand loader owned by the Willis Sand Co., a division of the Kyanite Mining Corporation. The sand was a by-prodict from their kyanite mine on nearby Willis Mountain. The loader track at Dillwyn was often crowded with covered hoppers up into the 1980s, among them similar rebuilt RF&P covered hoppers of a different class. The loader and track are still there, though no longer in use.

Though I can’t say for certain, I believe RF&P 7006 was in company service (though going off-line) for carrying locomotive sand.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On Sep 26, 2017, at 2:00 AM, thecitrusbelt@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:





This covered hopper appears to be a conversion from an open top hopper, especially considering the bays:


 



 


Does anyone know about the history of this or other (assumed) cars in the series?

 


Thanks.

 


Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA




thecitrusbelt@...
 

This covered hopper appears to be a conversion from an open top hopper, especially considering the bays:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Richmond-Fredericksburg-Potomac-RF-P-7006-converted-covered-hopper-8x10-photo-/372085206789?hash=item56a201af05:g:fZ0AAOSwLdNZxvP2

 

Does anyone know about the history of this or other (assumed) cars in the series?

 

Thanks.

 

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA