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USRA rebuild with a Hutchins end?
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Does anyone know who may have applied Hutchins ends to their USRA
rebuilds? I'm guessing this TP&W car is second-hand... https://www.flickr.com/photos/11690865@N06/35324886915/ Tim O'Connor
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Bill Welch
Likely an ex-NKP rebuild as offered in resin by Sunshine. I do not remember it origins so I cannot speak to whether it rebuilt from a USRA car or not.
Bill Welch
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Thanks Bill that's probably correct. NKP did have reverse Hutchins ends on some double sheath cars and I found a photo of an NKP 27000-27914 series rebuild that is identical to the TP&W box car. I have no idea what they were rebuilt from but I'll guess auto cars, because of the height of the original Hutchins ends. Tim O'Connor Likely an ex-NKP rebuild as offered in resin by Sunshine. I do not remember it origins so I cannot speak to whether it rebuilt from a USRA car or not. Bill Welch
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Tim and Bill, The best sift out of my data is the TP&W cars with 5 reverse, square-end, Hutchins panels are apparently out of the NKP 27000 series. This is based on the ends that are unique as far as I know. The NKP cars were rebuilt at Frankfort, IN, out of NKP 19000-19999 (Illinois Car & Manufacturing, 1923, XA, 10-0 door, IH 10-0) and some derivatives of that series by increasing the IH to 10-6 with steel sheathing and door at 7-0. The unique end arrangement resulted from rebuilding the original five panel end, the upper-most a flat blank the lower four reverse Hutchins, to a five panel end in which all were reverse Hutchins.
On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 3:42 AM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Schuyler Larrabee
What year is that Ford?
Schuyler From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2017 4:43 AM To: stmfc@... Subject: [STMFC] USRA rebuild with a Hutchins end? Does anyone know who may have applied Hutchins ends to their USRA rebuilds? I'm guessing this TP&W car is second-hand... https://www.flickr.com/photos/11690865@N06/3532488 6915/ Tim O'Connor
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Gary Roe
It is a 1959. gary roe quincy, illinois From: "'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC]" To: STMFC@... Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2017 2:12 PM Subject: RE: [STMFC] USRA rebuild with a Hutchins end? What year is that Ford?
Schuyler From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2017 4:43 AM To: stmfc@... Subject: [STMFC] USRA rebuild with a Hutchins end? Does anyone know who may have applied Hutchins ends to their USRA rebuilds? I'm guessing this TP&W car is second-hand... https://www.flickr.com/photos/11690865@N06/3532488 6915/ Tim O'Connor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Schuyler Larrabee
Thanks Gary.
Schuyler From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2017 3:31 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] USRA rebuild with a Hutchins end? It is a 1959. gary roe quincy, illinois _____ From: "'Schuyler Larrabee' schuyler.larrabee@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2017 2:12 PM Subject: RE: [STMFC] USRA rebuild with a Hutchins end? What year is that Ford? Schuyler From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2017 4:43 AM To: stmfc@... Subject: [STMFC] USRA rebuild with a Hutchins end? Does anyone know who may have applied Hutchins ends to their USRA rebuilds? I'm guessing this TP&W car is second-hand... https://www.flickr.com/photos/11690865@N06/3532488 6915/ Tim O'Connor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Schuyler Larrabee
So now that Gary Roe’s identified the Ford as a ’59, do you know, Eric, what year the TP&W got these cars from the NKP?
Schuyler From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2017 2:50 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] USRA rebuild with a Hutchins end? Tim and Bill, The best sift out of my data is the TP&W cars with 5 reverse, square-end, Hutchins panels are apparently out of the NKP 27000 series. This is based on the ends that are unique as far as I know. The NKP cars were rebuilt at Frankfort, IN, out of NKP 19000-19999 (Illinois Car & Manufacturing, 1923, XA, 10-0 door, IH 10-0) and some derivatives of that series by increasing the IH to 10-6 with steel sheathing and door at 7-0. The unique end arrangement resulted from rebuilding the original five panel end, the upper-most a flat blank the lower four reverse Hutchins, to a five panel end in which all were reverse Hutchins. Eric Lombard Homewood, IL elombard@... <mailto:elombard@...> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 3:42 AM, Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... <mailto:timboconnor@...> [STMFC] <STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC@...> > wrote: Does anyone know who may have applied Hutchins ends to their USRA rebuilds? I'm guessing this TP&W car is second-hand... https://www.flickr.com/photos/11690865@N06/35324886915/ Tim O'Connor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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1963 TP&W series 1301-1312 (12 cars) expanded to 1301-1349 by 1965 (16 cars). The TP&W series did not exist in 1959. NKP series 27000-27914 still had 879 cars in 1959. By 1965 the NKP had been folded into the N&W and the entire series was gone. > So ... Eric, what year the TP&W got these cars from the NKP? > Schuyler The best sift out of my data is the TP&W cars with 5 reverse, square-end, Hutchins panels are apparently out of the NKP 27000 series. This is based on the ends that are unique as far as I know. The NKP cars were rebuilt at Frankfort, IN, out of NKP 19000-19999 (Illinois Car & Manufacturing, 1923, XA, 10-0 door, IH 10-0) and some derivatives of that series by increasing the IH to 10-6 with steel sheathing and door at 7-0. The unique end arrangement resulted from rebuilding the original five panel end, the upper-most a flat blank the lower four reverse Hutchins, to a five panel end in which all were reverse Hutchins. Eric Lombard
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Brent Greer
Did these cars have the flat panel roofs or the diagonal panel roofs?
Brent ________________________________ Dr. J. Brent Greer From: STMFC@... on behalf of Tim O'Connor timboconnor@... [STMFC]
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2017 5:12:34 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: RE: [STMFC] USRA rebuild with a Hutchins end?
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Mornin' All...
Sorry to be coming back late... a garden wall fell on my leg on Saturday necessitating x-rays and stitches, etc. "So ... Eric, what year the TP&W got these cars from the NKP?" Schuyler "Did these cars have the flat panel roofs or the diagonal panel roofs?" Brent The cars were renumbered to TP&W in 1962. They had raised rectangular panel roofs from the NKP rebuild that began in 1946. TP&W 1301-1349 appears to have been an aspiration fulfilled only by a third of the promise the series bounds would indicate. And all the action is after our 1960 cut off. I'll risk reproof these because these are interesting geriatric cars. The service abstract (sorry the formatting doesn't transfer, as usual): TP&W 1301-1349 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1962(1) ... Not listed in ORER. 1962+ RENO out of NKP 27000-27914. 1962(7) 12 As 1301-1312. Indicated as addition in ORER. 1963(1) 12 1963 Underframes are 40 years old. 1963(10) 12 1964(7) 16 In 1301-1349. 1966(1) 13 1968(1) 4 1969(1) 4 1970(1) 3 As 1301-1308. 1970(7) 2 #1301, 1303. 1971(1) 1 #1301. 1971(7) 1 #1301. 1972(1) ... Not listed in ORER.
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As happens, happily, when we play "what's my line" on this site.... it was just pointed out to me that a photo of TP&W 1349 in Richard Hendrickson's ATSF "Furniture and Automobile Box Cars", p79, is an Fe-20! Fe-20 are 50 ft, double-door cars with mix and match ends. The "battleship" underframes are 50 years old by 1963. My take on this is that the 12 cars in TP&W 1301-1312 are ex NKP cars and that the 4 added in 1963 are ex ATSF 9000-9199 or its renumbers to ATSF 61300-61493. The reweigh date on TP&W 1349 appears to be 6-1963. So here is a revised service abstract to accommodate this new information. A handful of Fe-20 in ATSF 61300-61493, by the way, make it past 1969 when the underframes become 60 years old.
TP&W 1301-1349 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1962(1) ... Not listed in ORER. 1962 12 RENO out of NKP 27000-27914. 1962(7) 12 As 1301-1312. Indicated as addition in ORER. 1963(1) 12 1963 Underframes are 40 years old. 1963[6] 4? RENO to TP&W 1301-1349 out of either or both: ATSF 9000-9199, original Fe-20 ATSF 61300-61493, renumbered Fe-20. Underframes of these cars are over 50 years old at this date. 1963(10) 12 1964(7) 16 In combined 1301-1349. The ex ATSF cars are not distinguished and the dimensions of 1301-1312 are retained in the listing (as the most restrictive?) 1966(1) 13 1967(1) 71968(1) 4 1969(1) 4 1970(1) 3 As 1301-1308 (All ex ATSF Fe-20 gone by this date). 1970(7) 2 #1301, 1303. 1971(1) 1 #1301. 1971(7) 1 #1301. 1972(1) ... Not listed in ORER.
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Ian Cranstone
To complete the ORER service history of the TP&W 1301 series provided by Eric Lombard:
not listed Jan. 1962 Apr. 1962 — series 1301-1308, 8 cars Jul. 1962 to Oct. 1963 — series 1301-1312, 12 cars Jan. 1964 to Apr. 1965 — series 1301-1349, 16 cars Jul. 1965 — series 1301-1349, 15 cars Oct. 1965 to Apr. 1966 — series 1301-1349, 13 cars Jul. 1966 — series 1301-1349, 11 cars Oct. 1966 — series 1301, 1349, 9 cars Jan. 1967 — series 1301-1349, 7 cars Apr. 1967 — series 1301-1349, 6 cars Jul. 1967 — series 1301-1349, 4 cars Oct. 1967 — series 1301-1349, 5 cars Jan. 1968 to Oct. 1969 — series 1301-1349, 4 cars Jan. 1970 -- series 1301-1308, 3 cars Apr. 1970 — series 1301-1303, 2 cars Jul. 1970 to Oct. 1970 — series 1301 & 1303, 2 cars Jan. 1971 to Jul. 1971 — series 1301, 1 car No longer listed Oct. 1971
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Schuyler Larrabee
‘zakly what I wanted to know. Well past 1952 for me . . .
Schuyler From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 10:42 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Re: USRA rebuild with a Hutchins end? Mornin' All... Sorry to be coming back late... a garden wall fell on my leg on Saturday necessitating x-rays and stitches, etc. "So ... Eric, what year the TP&W got these cars from the NKP?" Schuyler "Did these cars have the flat panel roofs or the diagonal panel roofs?" Brent The cars were renumbered to TP&W in 1962. They had raised rectangular panel roofs from the NKP rebuild that began in 1946. TP&W 1301-1349 appears to have been an aspiration fulfilled only by a third of the promise the series bounds would indicate. And all the action is after our 1960 cut off. I'll risk reproof these because these are interesting geriatric cars. The service abstract (sorry the formatting doesn't transfer, as usual): TP&W 1301-1349 ---------------------------------------------------------- 1962(1) ... Not listed in ORER. 1962+ RENO out of NKP 27000-27914. 1962(7) 12 As 1301-1312. Indicated as addition in ORER. 1963(1) 12 1963 Underframes are 40 years old. 1963(10) 12 1964(7) 16 In 1301-1349. 1966(1) 13 1968(1) 4 1969(1) 4 1970(1) 3 As 1301-1308. 1970(7) 2 #1301, 1303. 1971(1) 1 #1301. 1971(7) 1 #1301. 1972(1) ... Not listed in ORER.
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