Tichy decals (was RE: Decal Adhesive)


Fred Jansz
 

Group, I've used a J. Glow decal set and there was nothing wrong with it. It's the Tichy decals that hurt me. The film is OK, it disappears after few shots of Methoxy-Propanol (Solvaset, Microsol) however, the ink on it is way too thick. In my situation (a DLW car and two PFE reefers) it was so thick it resembled plastic 3D letters in HO. And after the decal film dissolves, the thick white or black ink etches itself into the freshly painted surface. Try to remove the decal from a plastic model and the coat of paint on the car will go, but the decal's paint is very stubborn, it won't let go (or my brake fluid is non aggressive...).
I have never experienced any problems with (in some cases decades old) Champ, Sunshine, Microscale, F&C and Speedwitch decals to name a few. The only decals giving the same problems due to thickness of ink used were some Walthers decal from the 1960's.
Fred Jansz


Ken Roth
 

I would agree with Fred.  As I said in my first message, I have two sets of  the SP Tank Car decals (same lettering on both): one from Jerry Glow, the other from Tichy.  THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.  The ink on the Tichy decals is very thick.  The ones from Jerry are totally different and have worked fine for me, even over rivets.

Ken Roth


destorzek@...
 

I think the key to the problem was mentioned several pages of messages back... The big problem with short run printing of decals is finding a system that can print white, since most computer printers rely on the white paper showing through. ALPS printers used a ribbon that was thermally set to the decal paper, and included white for use as a backer to overprint transparent colors like red over other colors. The ALPS technology is almost history now.

The other industry that uses white printing is custom T shirts. But fabrics are printed with a thick rubberized ink that adheres to the threads in the weave. Someone stated a while back that Tichy is using a "modified fabric print head." I suspect the ink in the process is not optimist for printing decals.

Hope he gets the kinks worked out.

Dennis Storzek


Ray Breyer
 

Home printed, white decals are a real thing. Ignore Alps, ignore Rail Graphics (which is closing in a month anyway). Go directly here:
I had a couple of sets on display at Lisle (the MDT reefer decals if anyone saw them), and full sets were handed out two weeks ago at the Carolinas RPM meet along with their "build N' Bash" Southern ventilated boxcar. The printers and ink are giving several of us good results down to 2" HO scale lettering.

If you need Duluxe, or anything complex like multi-colored heralds, contact Microscale directly. They're cost-competitive with any of the other custom decal producers. The NKPHTS just ran full-sized sheets of two-color decals for far less than $5 a sheet. (if you want good Duluxe color saturation, ask for color "DCX3").

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Thursday, November 2, 2017, 10:02:37 AM CDT, destorzek@... [STMFC]




I think the key to the problem was mentioned several pages of messages back... The big problem with short run printing of decals is finding a system that can print white, since most computer printers rely on the white paper showing through. ALPS printers used a ribbon that was thermally set to the decal paper, and included white for use as a backer to overprint transparent colors like red over other colors. The ALPS technology is almost history now.

The other industry that uses white printing is custom T shirts. But fabrics are printed with a thick rubberized ink that adheres to the threads in the weave. Someone stated a while back that Tichy is using a "modified fabric print head." I suspect the ink in the process is not optimist for printing decals.

Hope he gets the kinks worked out.

Dennis Storzek



John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
 

Dennis, Ray Breyer and group.

The problem is not being able to print white. There are several ways to do that nowadays. No, not with your off-the-shelf $100.00 - $250.00 Inkjet or laser printers but there reasonable priced units that can print white.

The problem comes in if you need to print anything else except white or black. The colors are not opaque at all. If you were to place a red image on, say a medium to dark blue background, the red image would basically disappear.

What is necessary is to have a printer that will print a layer or two, depending on the darkness of the background, of white and then be able to print the color layer on top of the white while retaining registration. That is what is needed to get opaque colors, no matter what printer you are using.

There are printers that can do it all in one pass but they run in the $20,000.00 - $30,000.00 range. You would have to have really healthy decal business if you’re going to turn a profit, respectable or meager, when HO sets go for $6.00.

This is why has problems with thick ink. Apparently that is the amount of white ink needed to be opaque. Plus the white has to go under any part of the image that is not black.

Yes, anyone who has the necessary equipment to do so can make custom runs for anyone who wants them. However, the set up costs for offset and even screen printers is not inexpensive. So if you want HO Coal Porter decals you had better want enough sets to do a full, scale length unit train if you don’t want to spend $40.00/set.  What is needed are printers that can print directly from artwork. Like inkjets, lasers and. Oh yes, Alps. The printer Tichy (and others) uses can do it also. That really, really lowers and set up costs. With an Alps there are no setup costs other than artwork which is just the labor on the part of the artist. In my case, that is me. So the cost of an Alps decal sheet is the same for the last one as it is for the first one. There is no economy of scale. But, if you have big sets costs, the price per set come down the more sets you print. If you were to want maybe more than 25 sets of the average HO set, an Alps gets to be more expensive. But for 1, 2, 3 or 10 sets, Alps is the best deal around.

I can print you a 5.5 X 8.5 sheet of waterslide decals (5.0 X 7.0 print area) of any color you want for $20.00. Less if you only need black print. They will be printed on an Alps. They will be of very high quality albeit the maximum resolution will be 600 d.p.i. The numbers of color hues are limited unless I dither the colors (there will be an obvious dot matrix on close inspection). If at all possible I used layered colors to achieve different hues so the color is solid.

For reasonable cost, short run decals it is still not possible to beat an Alps. With well drawn, scalable vector graphics artwork (used by anyone worth his salt) and a real working knowledge of what an Alps is capable of and what it is not capable of, excellent decals can be had. But the printers have not been made for over twelve years and are getting real scarce ---- and expensive. They are finicky as all get out and repairs are only done by one company located in Japan. Their prices really are not bad but you’re looking at $500.00 shipping each way. Inks are also expensive and some of the process (tinting) colors are not available at any price.  And the white ink that is so very important for our use is sky rocketing.

To this end I am looking for others who can do my printing for me using my artwork. But so far I have not come up with anything that is what everybody wants. I will continue and I will continue printing Alps, provided I can keep at least one decent operating one.

I just may attempt that reverse printing. Getting the reverse printed images on the decal paper can be done with any printer that prints a properly registered white layer, like an Alps. Developing a method to reliably remove the film without messing up the images is the problem.

John Hagen

 

>Re: Tichy decals (was RE: Decal Adhesive)

>.Thu Nov 2, 2017 7:59 am (PDT) . Posted by:

>soolinehistory

>I think the key to the problem was mentioned several pages of messages back... The big problem with short run printing of decals is finding a system that can print white, since most computer printers rely on the white paper showing through. ALPS printers used a ribbon that was thermally >set to the decal paper, and included white for use as a backer to overprint transparent colors like red over other colors. The ALPS technology is almost history now.
>
>The other industry that uses white printing is custom T shirts. But fabrics are printed with a thick rubberized ink that adheres to the threads in the weave. Someone stated a while back that Tichy is using a "modified fabric print head." I suspect the ink in the process is not optimist for printing >decals.
>
>
>Hope he gets the kinks worked out.
>
>
>Dennis Storzek

 


hubert mask
 

We can print most of the work from your art work. At least we can look at it and make a determination. 

Hubert Mask
Mask Island Decals Inc 
Maskisland@...


On Nov 2, 2017, at 7:56 PM, 'John Hagen' sprinthag@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Dennis, Ray Breyer and group.

The problem is not being able to print white. There are several ways to do that nowadays. No, not with your off-the-shelf $100.00 - $250.00 Inkjet or laser printers but there reasonable priced units that can print white.

The problem comes in if you need to print anything else except white or black. The colors are not opaque at all. If you were to place a red image on, say a medium to dark blue background, the red image would basically disappear.

What is necessary is to have a printer that will print a layer or two, depending on the darkness of the background, of white and then be able to print the color layer on top of the white while retaining registration. That is what is needed to get opaque colors, no matter what printer you are using.

There are printers that can do it all in one pass but they run in the $20,000.00 - $30,000.00 range. You would have to have really healthy decal business if you’re going to turn a profit, respectable or meager, when HO sets go for $6.00.

This is why has problems with thick ink. Apparently that is the amount of white ink needed to be opaque. Plus the white has to go under any part of the image that is not black.

Yes, anyone who has the necessary equipment to do so can make custom runs for anyone who wants them. However, the set up costs for offset and even screen printers is not inexpensive. So if you want HO Coal Porter decals you had better want enough sets to do a full, scale length unit train if you don’t want to spend $40.00/set.  What is needed are printers that can print directly from artwork. Like inkjets, lasers and. Oh yes, Alps. The printer Tichy (and others) uses can do it also. That really, really lowers and set up costs. With an Alps there are no setup costs other than artwork which is just the labor on the part of the artist. In my case, that is me. So the cost of an Alps decal sheet is the same for the last one as it is for the first one. There is no economy of scale. But, if you have big sets costs, the price per set come down the more sets you print. If you were to want maybe more than 25 sets of the average HO set, an Alps gets to be more expensive. But for 1, 2, 3 or 10 sets, Alps is the best deal around.

I can print you a 5.5 X 8.5 sheet of waterslide decals (5.0 X 7.0 print area) of any color you want for $20.00. Less if you only need black print. They will be printed on an Alps. They will be of very high quality albeit the maximum resolution will be 600 d.p.i. The numbers of color hues are limited unless I dither the colors (there will be an obvious dot matrix on close inspection). If at all possible I used layered colors to achieve different hues so the color is solid.

For reasonable cost, short run decals it is still not possible to beat an Alps. With well drawn, scalable vector graphics artwork (used by anyone worth his salt) and a real working knowledge of what an Alps is capable of and what it is not capable of, excellent decals can be had. But the printers have not been made for over twelve years and are getting real scarce ---- and expensive. They are finicky as all get out and repairs are only done by one company located in Japan. Their prices really are not bad but you’re looking at $500.00 shipping each way. Inks are also expensive and some of the process (tinting) colors are not available at any price.  And the white ink that is so very important for our use is sky rocketing.

To this end I am looking for others who can do my printing for me using my artwork. But so far I have not come up with anything that is what everybody wants. I will continue and I will continue printing Alps, provided I can keep at least one decent operating one.

I just may attempt that reverse printing. Getting the reverse printed images on the decal paper can be done with any printer that prints a properly registered white layer, like an Alps. Developing a method to reliably remove the film without messing up the images is the problem.

John Hagen

 

>Re: Tichy decals (was RE: Decal Adhesive)

>.Thu Nov 2, 2017 7:59 am (PDT) . Posted by:

>soolinehistory

>I think the key to the problem was mentioned several pages of messages back... The big problem with short run printing of decals is finding a system that can print white, since most computer printers rely on the white paper showing through. ALPS printers used a ribbon that was thermally >set to the decal paper, and included white for use as a backer to overprint transparent colors like red over other colors. The ALPS technology is almost history now.
>
>The other industry that uses white printing is custom T shirts. But fabrics are printed with a thick rubberized ink that adheres to the threads in the weave. Someone stated a while back that Tichy is using a "modified fabric print head." I suspect the ink in the process is not optimist for printing >decals.
>
>
>Hope he gets the kinks worked out.
>
>
>Dennis Storzek

 


 

So a color laser is required? Count me out. I’ll stick to my ALPS.





Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@...> on behalf of STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:00 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tichy decals (was RE: Decal Adhesive)





Home printed, white decals are a real thing. Ignore Alps, ignore Rail Graphics (which is closing in a month anyway). Go directly here:

https://www.ghost-white-toner.com/?lang=en

I had a couple of sets on display at Lisle (the MDT reefer decals if anyone saw them), and full sets were handed out two weeks ago at the Carolinas RPM meet along with their "build N' Bash" Southern ventilated boxcar. The printers and ink are giving several of us good results down to 2" HO scale lettering.



If you need Duluxe, or anything complex like multi-colored heralds, contact Microscale directly. They're cost-competitive with any of the other custom decal producers. The NKPHTS just ran full-sized sheets of two-color decals for far less than $5 a sheet. (if you want good Duluxe color saturation, ask for color "DCX3").



Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

On Thursday, November 2, 2017, 10:02:37 AM CDT, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:







I think the key to the problem was mentioned several pages of messages back... The big problem with short run printing of decals is finding a system that can print white, since most computer printers rely on the white paper showing through. ALPS printers used a ribbon that was thermally set to the decal paper, and included white for use as a backer to overprint transparent colors like red over other colors. The ALPS technology is almost history now.



The other industry that uses white printing is custom T shirts. But fabrics are printed with a thick rubberized ink that adheres to the threads in the weave. Someone stated a while back that Tichy is using a "modified fabric print head." I suspect the ink in the process is not optimist for printing decals.



Hope he gets the kinks worked out.



Dennis Storzek


Dave Parker
 

I think Ray's comments, and I know mine, were aimed at people who don't own a functional ALPS printer and/or don't want to go down that rather uncertain road.  If you've got one, and you think the game is worth candle, then you can ignore any information posted about laser-printing of decals (and respond accordingly).

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA




On Saturday, November 4, 2017 2:39 PM, "BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
So a color laser is required? Count me out. I’ll stick to my ALPS.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List on behalf of STMFC List
Reply-To: STMFC List
Date: Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:00 PM
To: STMFC List
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tichy decals (was RE: Decal Adhesive)

Home printed, white decals are a real thing. Ignore Alps, ignore Rail Graphics (which is closing in a month anyway). Go directly here:

https://www.ghost-white-toner.com/?lang=en

I had a couple of sets on display at Lisle (the MDT reefer decals if anyone saw them), and full sets were handed out two weeks ago at the Carolinas RPM meet along with their "build N' Bash" Southern ventilated boxcar. The printers and ink are giving several of us good results down to 2" HO scale lettering.

If you need Duluxe, or anything complex like multi-colored heralds, contact Microscale directly. They're cost-competitive with any of the other custom decal producers. The NKPHTS just ran full-sized sheets of two-color decals for far less than $5 a sheet. (if you want good Duluxe color saturation, ask for color "DCX3").

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

On Thursday, November 2, 2017, 10:02:37 AM CDT, destorzek@... [STMFC] wrote:

I think the key to the problem was mentioned several pages of messages back... The big problem with short run printing of decals is finding a system that can print white, since most computer printers rely on the white paper showing through. ALPS printers used a ribbon that was thermally set to the decal paper, and included white for use as a backer to overprint transparent colors like red over other colors. The ALPS technology is almost history now.

The other industry that uses white printing is custom T shirts. But fabrics are printed with a thick rubberized ink that adheres to the threads in the weave. Someone stated a while back that Tichy is using a "modified fabric print head." I suspect the ink in the process is not optimist for printing decals.

Hope he gets the kinks worked out.

Dennis Storzek

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




 

Actually, I was rather hoping they offered white cartridges for B&W lasers, like my HP P2035n. I can do black decals all day long on it, but it seems suppliers only make white carts for color lasers





Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni





From: STMFC List <STMFC@...> on behalf of STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 5:02 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tichy decals (was RE: Decal Adhesive)





I think Ray's comments, and I know mine, were aimed at people who don't own a functional ALPS printer and/or don't want to go down that rather uncertain road. If you've got one, and you think the game is worth candle, then you can ignore any information posted about laser-printing of decals (and respond accordingly).



Dave Parker

Riverside, CA

On Saturday, November 4, 2017 2:39 PM, "BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:





So a color laser is required? Count me out. I’ll stick to my ALPS.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List <STMFC@...> on behalf of STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Date: Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:00 PM
To: STMFC List <STMFC@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tichy decals (was RE: Decal Adhesive)

Home printed, white decals are a real thing. Ignore Alps, ignore Rail Graphics (which is closing in a month anyway). Go directly here:

https://www.ghost-white-toner.com/?lang=en

I had a couple of sets on display at Lisle (the MDT reefer decals if anyone saw them), and full sets were handed out two weeks ago at the Carolinas RPM meet along with their "build N' Bash" Southern ventilated boxcar. The printers and ink are giving several of us good results down to 2" HO scale lettering.

If you need Duluxe, or anything complex like multi-colored heralds, contact Microscale directly. They're cost-competitive with any of the other custom decal producers. The NKPHTS just ran full-sized sheets of two-color decals for far less than $5 a sheet. (if you want good Duluxe color saturation, ask for color "DCX3").

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

On Thursday, November 2, 2017, 10:02:37 AM CDT, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

I think the key to the problem was mentioned several pages of messages back... The big problem with short run printing of decals is finding a system that can print white, since most computer printers rely on the white paper showing through. ALPS printers used a ribbon that was thermally set to the decal paper, and included white for use as a backer to overprint transparent colors like red over other colors. The ALPS technology is almost history now.

The other industry that uses white printing is custom T shirts. But fabrics are printed with a thick rubberized ink that adheres to the threads in the weave. Someone stated a while back that Tichy is using a "modified fabric print head." I suspect the ink in the process is not optimist for printing decals.

Hope he gets the kinks worked out.

Dennis Storzek

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Dave Parker
 

Brian:

It might be worth shooting the Ghost people (I don't know of other suppliers; are there any?) an email and asking.  Maybe if you ship them an empty black cartridge, they can fill it with white.  My sense is that is the extent of the technology.

The white cartridge is supposed to be good for hundreds of pages, more than I can imagine ever needing.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA



On Saturday, November 4, 2017 3:18 PM, "BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Actually, I was rather hoping they offered white cartridges for B&W lasers, like my HP P2035n. I can do black decals all day long on it, but it seems suppliers only make white carts for color lasers

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List on behalf of STMFC List
Reply-To: STMFC List
Date: Saturday, November 4, 2017 at 5:02 PM
To: STMFC List
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tichy decals (was RE: Decal Adhesive)

I think Ray's comments, and I know mine, were aimed at people who don't own a functional ALPS printer and/or don't want to go down that rather uncertain road. If you've got one, and you think the game is worth candle, then you can ignore any information posted about laser-printing of decals (and respond accordingly).

Dave Parker

Riverside, CA

On Saturday, November 4, 2017 2:39 PM, "BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@... [STMFC]" wrote:

So a color laser is required? Count me out. I’ll stick to my ALPS.

Thanks!
--

Brian Ehni

From: STMFC List
Reply-To: STMFC List
Date: Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 12:00 PM
To: STMFC List
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tichy decals (was RE: Decal Adhesive)

Home printed, white decals are a real thing. Ignore Alps, ignore Rail Graphics (which is closing in a month anyway). Go directly here:

https://www.ghost-white-toner.com/?lang=en

I had a couple of sets on display at Lisle (the MDT reefer decals if anyone saw them), and full sets were handed out two weeks ago at the Carolinas RPM meet along with their "build N' Bash" Southern ventilated boxcar. The printers and ink are giving several of us good results down to 2" HO scale lettering.

If you need Duluxe, or anything complex like multi-colored heralds, contact Microscale directly. They're cost-competitive with any of the other custom decal producers. The NKPHTS just ran full-sized sheets of two-color decals for far less than $5 a sheet. (if you want good Duluxe color saturation, ask for color "DCX3").

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL

On Thursday, November 2, 2017, 10:02:37 AM CDT, destorzek@... [STMFC] wrote:

I think the key to the problem was mentioned several pages of messages back... The big problem with short run printing of decals is finding a system that can print white, since most computer printers rely on the white paper showing through. ALPS printers used a ribbon that was thermally set to the decal paper, and included white for use as a backer to overprint transparent colors like red over other colors. The ALPS technology is almost history now.

The other industry that uses white printing is custom T shirts. But fabrics are printed with a thick rubberized ink that adheres to the threads in the weave. Someone stated a while back that Tichy is using a "modified fabric print head." I suspect the ink in the process is not optimist for printing decals.

Hope he gets the kinks worked out.

Dennis Storzek

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 11/4/2017 3:18 PM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@... [STMFC] wrote:
Actually, I was rather hoping they offered white cartridges for B&W lasers, like my HP P2035n. 

    They make cartridges for a bunch of printers.  See their site.

https://www.ghost-white-toner.com/ghost-white-toner-for-your-printer/?lang=en

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, 
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


 

Most appear to be color printers only, and I don’t see my B&W listed at all. I have emailed them and will let the list know. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Nov 4, 2017, at 6:41 PM, Jon Miller atsfus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

On 11/4/2017 3:18 PM, BRIAN PAUL EHNI bpehni@... [STMFC] wrote:
Actually, I was rather hoping they offered white cartridges for B&W lasers, like my HP P2035n. 

    They make cartridges for a bunch of printers.  See their site.

https://www.ghost-white-toner.com/ghost-white-toner-for-your-printer/?lang=en

--
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems,
SPROG, JMRI User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS