Tankcar Steam Connections
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Richard Townsend
Interesting. Thanks for the explanation.
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Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
-----Original Message----- From: Charles Peck lnnrr152@... [STMFC] To: STMFC Sent: Thu, Nov 16, 2017 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tankcar Steam Connections The outlet does not need to be venting steam. Nor does there need to be a return line to the steam generator;
A condensate trap at a low point will drain water and allow fresh hot steam into the system.
Same as for the steam heat system on many passenger cars.
Chuck Peck
On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Richard Townsend richtownsend@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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LOUIS WHITELEY <octoraro1@...>
I have seen ACF drawings of heater coils. One has connections through the tank head - two each inlets and outlets, i.e. an inlet and an outlet for the left set of coils and a pair for the right set.
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The other drawing had one inlet and one outlet through the bottom of the tank and through openings in the center sill cover plates. Lou Whiteley Lawrenceville NJ On Nov 16, 2017, at 10:39 PM, destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Steve SANDIFER
I have photos of the inside of an ATSF storage tank at Emporia with the large heating lines inside that tank. Santa Fe tended to drain the oil out of the cars into wood lined troughs between the rails and then pump it into the large tanks for storage.
J. Stephen Sandifer
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 9:39 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: RE: [STMFC] Tankcar Steam Connections
Chuck…
Jack, If you are commenting on my road oil tankcar, they are not introducing steam into the oil, but rather into the heating coils, which are a closed system. What Chuck is saying is you don't need to vent steam out the other end of the coil; as the steam gives up its heat, it condenses to water, which trickles down to the steam trap, where it is expelled from the system, same as a passenger car heating system, or, for that matter, my building heating system. If I recall the function of the steam traps correctly, they have a bi-metallic diaphragm that when covered by water, cools enough to pop open. With the water gone and steam flowing by, the diaphragm heats up enough to pop closed again.
Dennis Storzek |
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Jack Burgess <jack@...>
Makes more sense now Dennis…
Jack From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 7:39 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: RE: [STMFC] Tankcar Steam Connections ---In STMFC@..., <jack@...> wrote : Chuck… So, it is hard to understand why they would introduce steam/water into a tank car full of Bunker C rather than circulate through a series of pipes and then let it vent to the outside. In addition, my understanding from what he told me is that water flowed to the surface of a steam locomotive tender not to a low point… Jack Burgess ========================= Jack, If you are commenting on my road oil tankcar, they are not introducing steam into the oil, but rather into the heating coils, which are a closed system. What Chuck is saying is you don't need to vent steam out the other end of the coil; as the steam gives up its heat, it condenses to water, which trickles down to the steam trap, where it is expelled from the system, same as a passenger car heating system, or, for that matter, my building heating system. If I recall the function of the steam traps correctly, they have a bi-metallic diaphragm that when covered by water, cools enough to pop open. With the water gone and steam flowing by, the diaphragm heats up enough to pop closed again. Dennis Storzek [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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Jack Burgess <jack@...>
Chuck…
That helps…I was thinking that you were describing a system where steam was simply injected into the tank car. Jack From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 7:25 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tankcar Steam Connections Jack, the condensate trap is attached to the low point of the steam coils and drains to the ground. No water need be introduced to the oil being heated. Not speaking from theory or hearsay, I spent 22 years as an engineer in the engine room of ships, many of which burned bunker fuel. I have no idea how the the Yosemite Valley oil got contaminated so badly as I was told this summer, in the cab, that they were burning used and re-purified motor oil. I did not inquire as to their storage. Chuck Peck On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:04 PM, 'Jack Burgess' jack@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote: Chuck… I asked a current day, experienced steam locomotive fireman a question about Bunker C in a similar situation on the Yosemite Valley Railroad. Based on his knowledge, I wrote an article which read: “Adjacent to the oil tank was a covered 16’x36’ by 6’ deep settling tank. One purpose of the settling tank was to easily transfer fuel oil from a tank car to the oil tank via the settling tank. Fuel oil in a loaded tank car could drain by gravity from the tank car to the settling tank. But the settling tank had a much more important function which was to permit the separation of water and other impurities from the oil before it was pumped to the YV oil tank. If not removed, thus impurities could obstruct firing of the locomotive. Steam coils in the settling tank kept the oil fluid so that it could be pumped into the above-ground oil tank via an electric pump.” So, it is hard to understand why they would introduce steam/water into a tank car full of Bunker C rather than circulate through a series of pipes and then let it vent to the outside. In addition, my understanding from what he told me is that water flowed to the surface of a steam locomotive tender not to a low point… Jack Burgess From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:42 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tankcar Steam Connections The outlet does not need to be venting steam. Nor does there need to be a return line to the steam generator; A condensate trap at a low point will drain water and allow fresh hot steam into the system. Same as for the steam heat system on many passenger cars. Chuck Peck On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Richard Townsend richtownsend@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote: More engineering ignorance on my part here: doesn't the steam need to flow through the heating pipes? In other words, doesn't there need to be two connections for steam, one inlet and one outlet? It seems to me that static steam would cool pretty fast and be useless for heating the tank car contents. Surely they didn't introduce steam directly into the contents. Richard Townsend Lincoln City, OR -----Original Message----- From: destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> To: STMFC <STMFC@...> Sent: Thu, Nov 16, 2017 3:56 pm Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tankcar Steam Connections Thanks to all who answered. The project was trying to figure out what exactly was happening in a forties era photo captioned "unloading road oil." There is a tankcar, an oil spreader truck with the booms folded across the back, and a trailer full of unidentifiable machinery between them. There is a hose from the top of the dome to the trailer, and a second from the trailer to the hatch on top of the tank truck. Then there is another hose from the trailer to the bottom of the tankcar. I am of the opinion that there are both an engine powered pump and a steam generator on the trailer, and the last hose is running steam to heat the car. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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destorzek@...
---In STMFC@..., <jack@...> wrote : Chuck… So, it is hard to understand why they would introduce steam/water into a tank car full of Bunker C rather than circulate through a series of pipes and then let it vent to the outside. In addition, my understanding from what he told me is that water flowed to the surface of a steam locomotive tender not to a low point… Jack Burgess ========================= Jack, If you are commenting on my road oil tankcar, they are not introducing steam into the oil, but rather into the heating coils, which are a closed system. What Chuck is saying is you don't need to vent steam out the other end of the coil; as the steam gives up its heat, it condenses to water, which trickles down to the steam trap, where it is expelled from the system, same as a passenger car heating system, or, for that matter, my building heating system. If I recall the function of the steam traps correctly, they have a bi-metallic diaphragm that when covered by water, cools enough to pop open. With the water gone and steam flowing by, the diaphragm heats up enough to pop closed again. Dennis Storzek |
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Jack, the condensate trap is attached to the low point of the steam coils and drains to the ground. No water need be introduced to the oil being heated. Not speaking from theory or hearsay, I spent 22 years as an engineer in the engine room of ships, many of which burned bunker fuel. I have no idea how the the Yosemite Valley oil got contaminated so badly as I was told this summer, in the cab, that they were burning used and re-purified motor oil. I did not inquire as to their storage. Chuck Peck On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:04 PM, 'Jack Burgess' jack@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Jack Burgess <jack@...>
Chuck…
I asked a current day, experienced steam locomotive fireman a question about Bunker C in a similar situation on the Yosemite Valley Railroad. Based on his knowledge, I wrote an article which read: “Adjacent to the oil tank was a covered 16’x36’ by 6’ deep settling tank. One purpose of the settling tank was to easily transfer fuel oil from a tank car to the oil tank via the settling tank. Fuel oil in a loaded tank car could drain by gravity from the tank car to the settling tank. But the settling tank had a much more important function which was to permit the separation of water and other impurities from the oil before it was pumped to the YV oil tank. If not removed, thus impurities could obstruct firing of the locomotive. Steam coils in the settling tank kept the oil fluid so that it could be pumped into the above-ground oil tank via an electric pump.” So, it is hard to understand why they would introduce steam/water into a tank car full of Bunker C rather than circulate through a series of pipes and then let it vent to the outside. In addition, my understanding from what he told me is that water flowed to the surface of a steam locomotive tender not to a low point… Jack Burgess From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 6:42 PM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tankcar Steam Connections The outlet does not need to be venting steam. Nor does there need to be a return line to the steam generator; A condensate trap at a low point will drain water and allow fresh hot steam into the system. Same as for the steam heat system on many passenger cars. Chuck Peck On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Richard Townsend richtownsend@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote: More engineering ignorance on my part here: doesn't the steam need to flow through the heating pipes? In other words, doesn't there need to be two connections for steam, one inlet and one outlet? It seems to me that static steam would cool pretty fast and be useless for heating the tank car contents. Surely they didn't introduce steam directly into the contents. Richard Townsend Lincoln City, OR -----Original Message----- From: destorzek@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> To: STMFC <STMFC@...> Sent: Thu, Nov 16, 2017 3:56 pm Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tankcar Steam Connections Thanks to all who answered. The project was trying to figure out what exactly was happening in a forties era photo captioned "unloading road oil." There is a tankcar, an oil spreader truck with the booms folded across the back, and a trailer full of unidentifiable machinery between them. There is a hose from the top of the dome to the trailer, and a second from the trailer to the hatch on top of the tank truck. Then there is another hose from the trailer to the bottom of the tankcar. I am of the opinion that there are both an engine powered pump and a steam generator on the trailer, and the last hose is running steam to heat the car. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
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The outlet does not need to be venting steam. Nor does there need to be a return line to the steam generator; A condensate trap at a low point will drain water and allow fresh hot steam into the system. Same as for the steam heat system on many passenger cars. Chuck Peck On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 8:21 PM, Richard Townsend richtownsend@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:
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Richard Townsend
More engineering ignorance on my part here: doesn't the steam need to flow through the heating pipes? In other words, doesn't there need to be two connections for steam, one inlet and one outlet? It seems to me that static steam would cool pretty fast and be useless for heating the tank car contents. Surely they didn't introduce steam directly into the contents.
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Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
-----Original Message----- From: destorzek@... [STMFC] To: STMFC Sent: Thu, Nov 16, 2017 3:56 pm Subject: Re: [STMFC] Tankcar Steam Connections Thanks to all who answered. The project was trying to figure out what exactly was happening in a forties era photo captioned "unloading road oil." There is a tankcar, an oil spreader truck with the booms folded across the back, and a trailer full of unidentifiable machinery between them. There is a hose from the top of the dome to the trailer, and a second from the trailer to the hatch on top of the tank truck. Then there is another hose from the trailer to the bottom of the tankcar. I am of the opinion that there are both an engine powered pump and a steam generator on the trailer, and the last hose is running steam to heat the car.
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destorzek@...
Thanks to all who answered. The project was trying to figure out what exactly was happening in a forties era photo captioned "unloading road oil." There is a tankcar, an oil spreader truck with the booms folded across the back, and a trailer full of unidentifiable machinery between them. There is a hose from the top of the dome to the trailer, and a second from the trailer to the hatch on top of the tank truck. Then there is another hose from the trailer to the bottom of the tankcar. I am of the opinion that there are both an engine powered pump and a steam generator on the trailer, and the last hose is running steam to heat the car.
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Richard Wilkens
Still would need a drain at the bottom of the car for the water to drain out.
Rich Wilkens |
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Jack Burgess <jack@...>
Jim...
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About 12 years ago, I was writing an article for RMC about Bunker C and asked that question of a friend who was owned a company that repaired steam boilers. He had to ask one of the old-timers since Bunker C was long gone but the answer was about 90 degrees to get it to flow easily. Jack Burgess -----Original Message-----
All, So what temp did the contents have to get to "flow easily"? - Jim B. |
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Jon,
Perhaps those rivets support the heating coils inside the car? All, So what temp did the contents have to get to "flow easily"? And how long did the car have to be hooked up to the steam for it to come up to temperature? I've unloaded Bunker C (from a ship) and it wasn't hot so much as "just warm" ... but it may have been considerably warmer nearer the ship/in the hold of the ship (I was on the shore). It did flow into the tank on the hill - rather than "plop". We used the Bunker C in the cannery boiler - which powered the entire cannery (12" overhead leather belts). I do not remember there being any heater in the tank on the hill but there must have been because the run to the boiler was about a football field in distance ... or maybe it was gravity fed? (I kind of doubt that.) I was in the cannery once when they started up the overhead belt system ... there is an amazing amount of noise just from those belts all running! I'm pretty sure that there was only one 'engine' in the cannery that powered the entire belt system. Don't remember hearing noise from that engine (the belts were too loud). I'm certain that the ship pre-heated the oil before arriving at the destination because there wasn't any waiting - just hook up and start pumping. Probably the ship (a "coastal oiler") kept the contents heated continuously as it went from local port to local port. - Jim B. |
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Tony Thompson
Jim Ferenc wrote:
One of the tank cars I inherited from Richard Hendrickson was modified to have this tank-top steam connection. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history |
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Richard Townsend
I have a copy of an Alcoa ad in the November 6, 1943 Railway Age showing the interior of an aluminum tank car equipped with heating coils, and the connections go through the tank head. It seems like that would be a much easier place to make the hook-ups than under the car.
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Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR
-----Original Message----- From: destorzek@... [STMFC] To: STMFC Sent: Thu, Nov 16, 2017 7:48 am Subject: [STMFC] Tankcar Steam Connections I should know this, but don't. Where was the common place for the steam line connections to the heating coils in heated tankcars? I have seen a few photos of car with connections protruding through the tank head at the end of the car, but not many. Were the connections typically on the bottom of the tank, protected by the center sill>
Dennis Storzek
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Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
On 11/16/2017 9:26 AM, 'BCOJim'
bcojim@... [STMFC] wrote:
Here’s a photo from this group’s *excellent* gallery: That's a neat car, wondering what the many
rows of rivets on the bottom of the ends was for? -- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User SPROG User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS |
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BCOJim
Some tanks had steam connections on the top of the tank, forward of the dome. Here’s a photo from this group’s *excellent* gallery: http://steamerafreightcars.com/gallery/tank/tcx2479main.html -- and there are more.
I’ve scratched this connection on some of my insulated tank cars as appropriate.
Thanks.
Jim Ferenc Boulder, CO www.bouldercreekengineering.com
From:
STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Very old cars may have end and bottom center connections( usually 2 inch pipe). Later cars had center connections. In my experience all had chains to keep the unloaded a from losing the caps. Tom Birkett, Bartlesville, OK
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
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From: "destorzek@... [STMFC]" Date: 11/16/17 9:48 AM (GMT-06:00) To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Tankcar Steam Connections
I should know this, but don't. Where was the common place for the steam line connections to the heating coils in heated tankcars? I have seen a few photos of car with connections protruding through the tank head at the end of the car, but not many. Were the connections typically on the bottom of the tank, protected by the center sill>
Dennis Storzek |
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tnbirke <tnbirke@...>
Very old cars may have end and bottom center connections( usually 2 inch pipe). Later cars had center connections. In my experience all had chains to keep the unloaded a from losing the caps. Tom Birkett, Bartlesville, OK Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S® 6, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: "destorzek@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> Date: 11/16/17 9:48 AM (GMT-06:00) To: STMFC@... Subject: [STMFC] Tankcar Steam Connections I should know this, but don't. Where was the common place for the steam line connections to the heating coils in heated tankcars? I have seen a few photos of car with connections protruding through the tank head at the end of the car, but not many. Were the connections typically on the bottom of the tank, protected by the center sill> Dennis Storzek |
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Todd Sullivan
Hi Dennis,
I believe that most steam connections were near the bottom outlet. Sometimes, the outlet itself was jacketed and heated by steam for unloading. On some cars, IIRC, that was all that was heated; on other cars, internal steam pipes heated the load at the bottom of the tank and were connected to a pipe and fixture adjacent to the outlet valve. Todd Sullivan |
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