P&WV hopper lettering - was Gondola Load: What Is It?


Eric Hansmann
 

Thanks for pointing out these images, Charlie. A few Pre-Depression Era modelers find images like these and share with each other but we forget where we found the originals. The Reading gon is interesting as it still wears mid-1920s style lettering with the hardware inventory on the right side of the car. A 1937 date means these have not been repainted in about a decade.

Another image in that string reveals P&WV hoppers with original early-to-mid 1920s lettering. These are on the RIP track with many other hoppers that may be in the rebuilding process. Here's the image.

http://www.thepwvhiline.com/WreckDerailmentsandDamage/Metal_Coils_At_Rook_004_Web.html


A few hoppers on the right have the full road name lettering across the top of the car side. I knew the long road name was applied in the early 1920s but did not know how long the lettering style was used.  


Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN



On November 23, 2017 at 10:23 PM "Charles Tapper charlestapper@... [STMFC]" <STMFC@...> wrote:

This is an insurance photo for a shifted load at Avella Pa, on the P&WV , on March 27th 1937, per the P&WV Hiline website. There are two gons involved and I would say the shifted loads are most likely steel, not aluminum. Here are some links:


http://www.thepwvhiline.com/WreckDerailmentsandDamage/Metal_Coils_At_Avella_001_Web.html



Dave Parker
 

I have to disagree slightly with Eric about the lettering on the RDG 27935 gon.  The right-hand side does contain the hardware inventory found in pre-1927 lettering schemes.  Just above the repack stencil and obscured by chalk marks is the length data, including (presumably) the inside length.  To the left of that, you can make out the CAPY 863 CU FT stencil.  So, this end of the car contains the minimal right-side data required  by the 1927 ARA standard for a gon (CU FT and IL), just in an outdated format.

If you look closely at the far end of the car, you can make out the three lines of weight data (CAPY, LD LMT, LT WT) and the reweigh stencil (maybe 1935?), all in accord with the 1927 standard.  These appear to be in fresher paint than the stencils on the right, while the 1937 repack stencil is clearly the freshest of all.

As an early-1930s modeler, I avidly collect images such as this one that show the transition from the pre- to post-1927 standards.  I am finding an increasing number of cars much like this one, with a mix of the "old" and the "new" that reflect only partial repainting and restenciling to bring cars into compliance with the 1927 lettering standards.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA




On Friday, November 24, 2017 6:28 AM, "Eric Hansmann eric@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Thanks for pointing out these images, Charlie. A few Pre-Depression Era modelers find images like these and share with each other but we forget where we found the originals. The Reading gon is interesting as it still wears mid-1920s style lettering with the hardware inventory on the right side of the car. A 1937 date means these have not been repainted in about a decade.
Another image in that string reveals P&WV hoppers with original early-to-mid 1920s lettering. These are on the RIP track with many other hoppers that may be in the rebuilding process. Here's the image.

A few hoppers on the right have the full road name lettering across the top of the car side. I knew the long road name was applied in the early 1920s but did not know how long the lettering style was used.  

Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On November 23, 2017 at 10:23 PM "Charles Tapper charlestapper@... [STMFC]" wrote:

This is an insurance photo for a shifted load at Avella Pa, on the P&WV , on March 27th 1937, per the P&WV Hiline website. There are two gons involved and I would say the shifted loads are most likely steel, not aluminum. Here are some links:


http://www.thepwvhiline.com/WreckDerailmentsandDamage/Metal_Coils_At_Avella_001_Web.html





John Barry
 

Dave,

You make an interesting point about partial re-stencilling. This 1937 example seems rather rare though an likely to be even rarer or non-existent in my time period at the end of 1944. I know you should never say never, but do you have a sense when the last examples of this transitional lettering disappeared? That might allow me to use a few more of those nice 36'Accurail box cars with partial patch paint.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA


707-490-9696 


PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736

--------------------------------------------

On Fri, 11/24/17, Dave Parker spottab@yahoo.com [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] P&WV hopper lettering - was Gondola Load: What Is It?
To: "STMFC@yahoogroups.com" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, November 24, 2017, 11:04 AM


 









I
have to disagree slightly with Eric about the lettering on
the RDG 27935 gon.  The right-hand side does contain the
hardware inventory found in pre-1927 lettering schemes. 
Just above the repack stencil and obscured by chalk marks is
the length data, including (presumably) the inside length. 
To the left of that, you can make out the CAPY 863 CU FT
stencil.  So, this end of the car contains the minimal
right-side data required  by the 1927 ARA standard for a
gon (CU FT and IL), just in an outdated format.
If
you look closely at the far end of the car, you can make out
the three lines of weight data (CAPY, LD LMT, LT WT) and the
reweigh stencil (maybe 1935?), all in accord with the 1927
standard.  These appear to be in fresher paint than the
stencils on the right, while the 1937 repack stencil is
clearly the freshest of all.

As an
early-1930s modeler, I avidly collect images such as this
one that show the transition from the pre- to post-1927
standards.  I am finding an increasing number of cars much
like this one, with a mix of the "old" and the
"new" that reflect only partial repainting and
restenciling to bring cars into compliance with the 1927
lettering standards.

Dave
ParkerRiverside,
CA





On Friday, November
24, 2017 6:28 AM, "Eric Hansmann eric@hansmanns.org
[STMFC]" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



 










Thanks for pointing out these images, Charlie. A
few Pre-Depression Era modelers find images like these and
share with each other but we forget where we found the
originals. The Reading gon is interesting as it still wears
mid-1920s style lettering with the hardware inventory on the
right side of the car. A 1937 date means these have not been
repainted in about a decade.Another image in that
string reveals P&WV hoppers with original early-to-mid
1920s lettering. These are on the RIP track with many other
hoppers that may be in the rebuilding process. Here's
the image.http://www.thepwvhiline.com/WreckDerailmentsandDamage/Metal_Coils_At_Rook_004_Web.html
A few hoppers on the right have the
full road name lettering across the top of the car side. I
knew the long road name was applied in the early 1920s but
did not know how long the lettering style was
used.  
Eric
HansmannMurfreesboro, TN

On
November 23, 2017 at 10:23 PM "Charles Tapper
charlestapper@yahoo.com [STMFC]"
<STMFC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

This
is an insurance photo for a shifted load at Avella Pa, on
the P&WV , on March 27th 1937, per the P&WV Hiline
website. There are two gons involved and I would say the
shifted loads are most likely steel, not aluminum. Here are
some links:
http://www.thepwvhiline.com/WreckDerailmentsandDamage/Metal_Coils_At_Avella_002_Web.html

http://www.thepwvhiline.com/WreckDerailmentsandDamage/Metal_Coils_At_Avella_001_Web.html



And
a similar case:
http://www.thepwvhiline.com/WreckDerailmentsandDamage/Metal_Coils_At_Rook_005_Rook

Charlie
TapperBroken
Arrow, OKk






















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Dave Parker
 

John:

Excellent question.  First, as you might guess, in-service photos from the Depression are rare.  For the 36' shorties modeled by the recent Accurail releases, it's often easier to find builder's photos from the teens and early twenties.  So the sample size is really small.

For the NYC lines and the DL&W, where I have really been focusing lately, I'd say the photos from ~1929 to 1932 frequently show this mixed lettering scheme.  Maybe 50-50ish with the full-on 1927 schemes.  Also, in the period 1925-30, you can find some sort of one-off schemes where the left-side tare data is in the spirit of the 1927 standard, but not exactly compliant.

I think this RDG car in 1937 is the latest example of the mixed scheme that I have seen.  In my existing collection, 1935 is probably about it.  I don't pay too much attention to photos from the forties, but my off-the-cuff guess would be that it would be quite rare in 1944.  But, if it did occur, I would think it would be on older wood cars that are on the soon-to-be-scrapped list, like those 36' shorties.

Best,

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA



On Friday, November 24, 2017 8:26 AM, "John Barry northbaylines@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
Dave,

You make an interesting point about partial re-stencilling. This 1937 example seems rather rare though an likely to be even rarer or non-existent in my time period at the end of 1944. I know you should never say never, but do you have a sense when the last examples of this transitional lettering disappeared? That might allow me to use a few more of those nice 36'Accurail box cars with partial patch paint.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 11/24/17, Dave Parker spottab@... [STMFC] wrote:

Subject: Re: [STMFC] P&WV hopper lettering - was Gondola Load: What Is It?
To: "STMFC@..."
Date: Friday, November 24, 2017, 11:04 AM


 









I
have to disagree slightly with Eric about the lettering on
the RDG 27935 gon.  The right-hand side does contain the
hardware inventory found in pre-1927 lettering schemes. 
Just above the repack stencil and obscured by chalk marks is
the length data, including (presumably) the inside length. 
To the left of that, you can make out the CAPY 863 CU FT
stencil.  So, this end of the car contains the minimal
right-side data required  by the 1927 ARA standard for a
gon (CU FT and IL), just in an outdated format.
If
you look closely at the far end of the car, you can make out
the three lines of weight data (CAPY, LD LMT, LT WT) and the
reweigh stencil (maybe 1935?), all in accord with the 1927
standard.  These appear to be in fresher paint than the
stencils on the right, while the 1937 repack stencil is
clearly the freshest of all.

As an
early-1930s modeler, I avidly collect images such as this
one that show the transition from the pre- to post-1927
standards.  I am finding an increasing number of cars much
like this one, with a mix of the "old" and the
"new" that reflect only partial repainting and
restenciling to bring cars into compliance with the 1927
lettering standards.

Dave
ParkerRiverside,
CA





On Friday, November
24, 2017 6:28 AM, "Eric Hansmann eric@...
[STMFC]" wrote:



 










Thanks for pointing out these images, Charlie. A
few Pre-Depression Era modelers find images like these and
share with each other but we forget where we found the
originals. The Reading gon is interesting as it still wears
mid-1920s style lettering with the hardware inventory on the
right side of the car. A 1937 date means these have not been
repainted in about a decade.Another image in that
string reveals P&WV hoppers with original early-to-mid
1920s lettering. These are on the RIP track with many other
hoppers that may be in the rebuilding process. Here's
the image.http://www.thepwvhiline.com/WreckDerailmentsandDamage/Metal_Coils_At_Rook_004_Web.html
A few hoppers on the right have the
full road name lettering across the top of the car side. I
knew the long road name was applied in the early 1920s but
did not know how long the lettering style was
used.  
Eric
HansmannMurfreesboro, TN

On
November 23, 2017 at 10:23 PM "Charles Tapper
charlestapper@... [STMFC]"
wrote:

This
is an insurance photo for a shifted load at Avella Pa, on
the P&WV , on March 27th 1937, per the P&WV Hiline
website. There are two gons involved and I would say the
shifted loads are most likely steel, not aluminum. Here are
some links:
http://www.thepwvhiline.com/WreckDerailmentsandDamage/Metal_Coils_At_Avella_002_Web.html

http://www.thepwvhiline.com/WreckDerailmentsandDamage/Metal_Coils_At_Avella_001_Web.html



And
a similar case:
http://www.thepwvhiline.com/WreckDerailmentsandDamage/Metal_Coils_At_Rook_005_Rook

Charlie
TapperBroken
Arrow, OKk






















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Ray Breyer
 

>>I think this RDG car in 1937 is the latest example of the mixed scheme that I have seen.
>>Dave Parker

Hi Dave,

Except that it's not; that's just how the Reading lettered their cars in the 1930s. I just reviewed my P&R/Reading file, and the pre-1927 lettering was significantly different. It seems as though the Reading liked to keep appliance data on their cars, and had multiple lines of it on their cars far longer than most roads, which opted to simplify their lettering through the 1930s and 1940s.

I'll send you a few photos offlist in a minute.

To the rest of the group: Dave and I have been talking about mixed lettering schemes off and on for a few weeks, and can't come to a consensus. Honestly, I'm not seeing it at all after the early 1920s. When the first standards came out in the first decade of the 20th Century they were common, and sometimes through the early 1920s as railroads upgraded or changed their lettering standards. This is shown through the earlier photos in the DL&W company photo collection, among other places. But I'm not finding evidence for it through the late 1920s and into the Depression years. And given that wood cars would need to be rebuilt, fixed and repainted every ten years or so, there's not a large window of opportunity to see the phenomena if it did happen; they'd all certainly be long gone by 1937.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL



Dave Parker
 

Ray:

Please note that I didn't say it was the latest example in existence, only that I have seen.

Also, I thought it was implicit but of course railroads could continue to put appliance data on the cars sides, or on the ends.  The 1927 standard only mandated the minimum that needed to applied to the right side of the car.  For a gondola, this was IL, CU FT, BLT date, repack stencil and, if used by the road, car class.

Last, I'm not sure you and I are completely on the same page about these "mixed" lettering schemes.  I am only concerned with combinations of the 1920 and 1927 ARA standards, having little interest in what came before 1920.  But, if you want to see some really nice examples of what I'm talking about, review the two 6-27-1930 yards shots in Newark.  After all, you sent them to me. 

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA


On Friday, November 24, 2017 10:20 AM, "Ray Breyer rtbsvrr69@... [STMFC]" wrote:


 
>>I think this RDG car in 1937 is the latest example of the mixed scheme that I have seen.
>>Dave Parker

Hi Dave,

Except that it's not; that's just how the Reading lettered their cars in the 1930s. I just reviewed my P&R/Reading file, and the pre-1927 lettering was significantly different. It seems as though the Reading liked to keep appliance data on their cars, and had multiple lines of it on their cars far longer than most roads, which opted to simplify their lettering through the 1930s and 1940s.

I'll send you a few photos offlist in a minute.

To the rest of the group: Dave and I have been talking about mixed lettering schemes off and on for a few weeks, and can't come to a consensus. Honestly, I'm not seeing it at all after the early 1920s. When the first standards came out in the first decade of the 20th Century they were common, and sometimes through the early 1920s as railroads upgraded or changed their lettering standards. This is shown through the earlier photos in the DL&W company photo collection, among other places. But I'm not finding evidence for it through the late 1920s and into the Depression years. And given that wood cars would need to be rebuilt, fixed and repainted every ten years or so, there's not a large window of opportunity to see the phenomena if it did happen; they'd all certainly be long gone by 1937.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL