GN front facing goat likelihood


rwilson1056
 

modeling 1950-1951 what would the likelihood of seeing a front facing on any of GN's fleet at that time
just like the front facing goat herald and really think I'm pushing it in 50-51...



Clark Cooper
 

Low, but greater than zero. I have a picture of GN 31248 at Colton CA in 1955 (reweigh date 6-52), sporting a front-facing goat.

Looks like somebody sold a copy of this photo on eBay recently.

-Clark Cooper


On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:15 PM, rwilson1056@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

modeling 1950-1951 what would the likelihood of seeing a front facing on any of GN's fleet at that time 
just like the front facing goat herald and really think I'm pushing it in 50-51...




gary laakso
 

You can go to YouTube and look for “Why Risk Your Life?”, a film made by GN that hales the new streamlined Empire Builder and there are many freight cars with full facing goats. 

 

Gary Laakso

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 7:40 PM
To: destorzek@... [STMFC]
Subject: Re: [STMFC] GN front facing goat likelihood

 

 

Low, but greater than zero. I have a picture of GN 31248 at Colton CA in 1955 (reweigh date 6-52), sporting a front-facing goat.

 

Looks like somebody sold a copy of this photo on eBay recently.

 

-Clark Cooper

 



On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:15 PM, rwilson1056@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

modeling 1950-1951 what would the likelihood of seeing a front facing on any of GN's fleet at that time 
just like the front facing goat herald and really think I'm pushing it in 50-51...

 

 


Jim Betz
 

rwilson (please sign your posts),

  The GN stopped using the front facing goat herald in 1936.  So any car that hasn't
been painted since that time would be the only ones.  That number would be
'relatively small'.
  There were many changes over the years between 1936 and 1950 for this to be
true:

       1) All new cars after 1936.
       2) All rebuilt cars after 1936.
       3) All cars retired (for a variety of reasons) after 1936.
       4) Any car that needs to be repainted after 1936.

  My best guess is that there would be some - but very few.  (The same is true
for power and cabeese ... but the percentage of surviving front facing
heralds would be even less.)
- Jim B.

P.S. You may want/need to refer to the following

http://www.greatnorthernempire.net/index2.htm?GNEGNTimeline.htm

________________________________________________________________________
3. GN front facing goat likelihood
Posted by: rwilson1056@... rwilson1056
Date: Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:15 pm ((PST))

modeling 1950-1951 what would the likelihood of seeing a front facing on any of GN's fleet at that time

just like the front facing goat herald and really think I'm pushing it in 50-51...


Robert Heninger
 

Jim,

Maybe Staffan Ehnbom will chime in here, but I'm certain that the first use of the side facing goat herald (on freight cars, at least) is 1940. The interesting thing is that the GN started using a side facing goat herald on brochures and other literature around 1936, but that was years before they used it on freight cars. The first three orders of 45000-52999 series boxcars all received front facing goats, and were built in 1937 and 1939.

FWIW, I have pictures of very weathered front facing goats on GN boxcars into the early 1950s.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND


Tim O'Connor
 

Bob

I have an image of GN 3880, a freshly painted truss rod box car, with the
front facing goat herald, with an 11-1940 date stencil.

I also have an image of GN 52075, one of the modern double sheathed box cars,
and it also has a front facing goat herald with a 1940 built date (can't make
out the month). Also, a 9-1940 photo of freshly built GN 49163.

The latest image I have of a front facing goat is GN 31248, a single sheathed
box car, from 1955.

Were the plywood side box cars the first new cars to be built with the side
facing goat?

Tim O'Connor



Jim,

Maybe Staffan Ehnbom will chime in here, but I'm certain that the first use of the side facing goat herald (on freight cars, at least) is 1940. The interesting thing is that the GN started using a side facing goat herald on brochures and other literature around 1936, but that was years before they used it on freight cars. The first three orders of 45000-52999 series boxcars all received front facing goats, and were built in 1937 and 1939.

FWIW, I have pictures of very weathered front facing goats on GN boxcars into the early 1950s.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND


Jim Betz
 

Clark/Gary/all,

  My reference for the date for the front facing goat is non other than
Scott Thompson's "Great Northern Equipment Color Pictorial" (book 1, page 73).
Were there some cars painted in the front facing goat after 1936?
Probably.  Were there very many of them surviving in 1950-51 (the
O.P.'s date of interest)?  I submit "not many" as my answer.
  Can he use some of them on his layout?  Of course he can.  The
questions are "how many?" ... and also "what service was the car in?"
and "what type of car?".  And, of course, the proverbial "it's my RR
and this is what I want to be seeing".  I did not answer "none".

  There is no way, at least that I know of, to "know for sure" what
percentage of cars would still have the front facing goat.  At the
same time - as the percentage goes up the "feel" of the early 50's
is compromised ... more weathering on those cars would
certainly help.
                    - Jim B.


Robert Heninger
 

My responses are bolded.


---In STMFC@..., <jimbetz@...> wrote :

Clark/Gary/all,

  My reference for the date for the front facing goat is non other than
Scott Thompson's "Great Northern Equipment Color Pictorial" (book 1,
page 73).

Jim, that is just a date range under the side facing "Great Northern Railway" side facing goat herald, which was not applied to a Great Northern FREIGHT CAR until 1948. Clearly, as has been documented elsewhere, that logo was first used on GN literature in about 1936. In fact, it is on the back cover of my 1940 GN Annual Report. It was also used on diesel locomotives starting about 1940/1941. The FTs might have been the first to use it, but I'm not sure. That's a whole other can of worms. 

Can you provide photographic evidence of a GN freight car with a side facing goat herald painted between 1936 and 1940? If you can, I will gladly stand corrected.

By the way, as useful as it is, Mr. Thompson's book is not a particularly reference for documenting steam era GN paint schemes, inasmuch as the vast majority of the photos in the three volume set are color photographs. I think the earliest photo in Volume 1 is dated 1957.

Were there some cars painted in the front facing goat after 1936? Probably.  

No, certainly. I have photographs of newly painted GN boxcars with 1936, 1937, 1938, 1939, and 1940 dates (over a dozen photos) in my collection. Every single one, across multiple car series, painted both by the GN, or one of three different commercial car builders, has a front facing goat herald. The latest has a November 1940 date. Furthermore, in my last post on this subject, I suggested the possibility of the 52000-52999 cars as the first series to use this herald. However, on page 39 of my copy of the 1940 GN Annual Report, is a photo of a string of cars from this series, the highest numbered being 52783. All of them have the front facing goat herald. It seems unlikely that Pullman would paint the last 200 cars differently from the first 800. Therefore, the first documented evidence I have of the use of the side facing goat herald, on a GN freight car, is GN boxcar 48743, dated February 1941. If others have photographic evidence otherwise, I'd love to see it.

Were there very many of them surviving in 1950-51 (the
O.P.'s date of interest)?  I submit "not many" as my answer.

I'll agree with you there. 

  Can he use some of them on his layout?  Of course he can.  The
questions are "how many?" ... and also "what service was the car in?"
and "what type of car?".  And, of course, the proverbial "it's my RR
and this is what I want to be seeing".  I did not answer "none".

  There is no way, at least that I know of, to "know for sure" what
percentage of cars would still have the front facing goat.  At the
same time - as the percentage goes up the "feel" of the early 50's
is compromised ... more weathering on those cars would
certainly help.
                    - Jim B.

Again, complete agreement. I have a couple photos showing boxcars with front facing goats taken in 1949, and 1952. The white part of the herald has almost completely worn off the side of the car. Only the black background is visible.

Well, I've sufficiently flagellated this dead horse. I've annoyed the list enough for one day.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND


Tim O'Connor
 


  >> that is just a date range under the side facing "Great Northern Railway"
  >> side facing goat herald, which was not applied to a Great Northern FREIGHT CAR
  >> until 1948.

Huh, wot? Ok have we moved on from "front vs side" to variations of side facing goats?
Because obviously the plywood cars in 1944 had side facing goats w/ "See America First"
emblems.

Tim O'


Robert Heninger
 

Tim, 

GN heralds can sure get your goat, can't they?

In 1948, the lettering surrounding the goat was changed to "GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY". It's first application to a freight car, as far as I know, was a series of GN steel boxcars with a NEW date of 2-48. Other cars in the series have a NEW date of 3-48.

This photo of GN 11022 shows the 1948 change:


The confusion arises in part because GN historical pamphlets show this "GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY" herald, and state that the first use was in 1936. And they are correct: the GN first used this herald on paper items (timetables, forms, annual reports, etc.) in 1936. It was also used on the FTs which arrived beginning in May/June 1941. It might have been used on diesel switchers a bit earlier, but I'm not sure. I'm also not sure when it was first applied to a steam locomotive tender. It was not used on a freight car until 1948.

As best I can tell, the "See America First - Glacier National Park" herald with the side facing goat was applied (to GN freight cars) from February 1941 to February 1948. Before February 1941, the goat faced forward, and had much more detail on the goat's face, and the mountain he's standing on. 

A book could be (and probably should be) written about the subject, much like the excellent SP/PFE lettering book Dick Harley and Tony Thompson wrote. Maybe when I retire.

Regards,
Bob Heninger
Minot, ND