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the brake wheel staff on this CCC&StL gon is too long

Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 

Hi List Members,
 
Note how the brake wheel staff on this CCC&StL gon is too long – it extends maybe a foot or more above the brake wheel.
 
Had anyone ever modeled that? I wonder how long it would take before anyone in your operating crew noticed!?!
 
 
Claus Schlund
 
Charlie Vlk
 

Klaus
The wheel can slide up and down the staff which in turn can be folded to rest on the end beam.  You can see the articulated joint at the base.
I guess that the gondola is convertible for use as a flat which is the normal application for this device
Charlie Vlk


On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:35 AM, 'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Hi List Members,
 
Note how the brake wheel staff on this CCC&StL gon is too long – it extends maybe a foot or more above the brake 
 
Had anyone ever modeled that? I wonder how long it would take before anyone in your operating crew noticed!?!
 
 
Claus Schlund
 
Charlie Vlk
 

Klaus
I couldn’t look at the photo while typing my previous reply.
Since it is a steel gon it wouldn’t have removable sides to make it into a flat but it must have removable or drop end, accounting for the folding brake staff
Charlie Vlk


On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:35 AM, 'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Hi List Members,
 
Note how the brake wheel staff on this CCC&StL gon is too long – it extends maybe a foot or more above the brake wheel.
 
Had anyone ever modeled that? I wonder how long it would take before anyone in your operating crew noticed!?!
 
 
Claus Schlund
 
Benjamin Hom
 

Charlie Vlk wrote:
"I couldn’t look at the photo while typing my previous reply.
Since it is a steel gon it wouldn’t have removable sides to make it into a flat but it must have removable or drop end, accounting for the folding brake staff."

You might want to look at the photo again - that is definitely a fixed end.
Dering Coal Company :: Martin Photo Shop


Dering Coal Company :: Martin Photo Shop




Ben Hom
Bruce Smith
 

Charlie,

That end looks pretty fixed to me ;)  Note that the retaining valve is attached to the end next to the brake staff as well as the riveted end caps and end to side seams. In addition, the photo also has a weird escher-like quality with the brake gears seemingly higher than the end sill.  And then I realized that there is a brake platform on the end of this car! And that means that I think that it is highly unlikely that the brakes shaft folds down

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith            
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Mar 9, 2018, at 9:34 AM, Charlie cvlk@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:



Klaus
I couldn’t look at the photo while typing my previous reply.
Since it is a steel gon it wouldn’t have removable sides to make it into a flat but it must have removable or drop end, accounting for the folding brake staff
Charlie Vlk


On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:35 AM, 'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:


Hi List Members,
 
Note how the brake wheel staff on this CCC&StL gon is too long – it extends maybe a foot or more above the brake wheel.
 
Had anyone ever modeled that? I wonder how long it would take before anyone in your operating crew noticed!?!
 
 
Claus Schlund
 
Charlie Vlk
 

Ben
So another possible explanation is since it is a low side car they thought it might be loaded with overhanging lading that would foul a fixed brake wheel staff???
Charlie Vlk


On Mar 9, 2018, at 9:37 AM, Benjamin Hom b.hom@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Charlie Vlk wrote:
"I couldn’t look at the photo while typing my previous reply.
Since it is a steel gon it wouldn’t have removable sides to make it into a flat but it must have removable or drop end, accounting for the folding brake staff."

You might want to look at the photo again - that is definitely a fixed end.
Dering Coal Company :: Martin Photo Shop


Dering Coal Company :: Martin Photo Shop




Ben Hom
Dennis Storzek
 

And the wheel doesn't slide, either. Brake wheels have a tapered square socket that fits on a tapered square forged on the end of the shaft, with a short round threaded projection beyond to hold the nut. The drop wheels used on flatcars are the same, except the whole brake staff is square, and slides through the chain drum casting at the bottom.

This rig? looks dangerous as all get-out; how would you like to be using that hand brake and fall into it? My best guess is it's a cobble job repair where a bolt was welded to the top of a broken staff... too bad the guy couldn't find his hacksaw. Definitely a one-of.

Dennis Storzek
Jack Mullen
 

OK, it's my turn to be the skeptic. I don't believe this is what it looks like.

The Safety Appliance act specifically requires:
     (v) Brake shaft shall be arranged with a square fit at its upper end to secure
  the hand-brake wheel; said square fit shall be not less than seven-eighths
  of an inch square. Square-fit taper, nominally 2 in 12 inches. (See plate A.)
So the hypothesized sliding brake wheel would be a safety appliance defect.

How do you secure a sliding brake wheel to a ROUND shaft anyway? 

What's the use of dropping the wheel, if the shaft still projects to it's original height.?  

Drop  wheels as commonly used on flats have the wheel secured to the drop shaft, in compliance with the Act, and a square shaft that slides through the lower mechanisim .

If you zoom in very closely, I think you can see that the nut securing the wheel is in front of the supposed staff extension, which seems to be offset very slightly to the right.

Occam's Razor sez this is a broom handle or some such, perhaps used as a brake club, which was left sticking up from the coal, next to the brakewheel, and the photo happened to catch it at the right angle to create a nice illusion.  

Jack Mullen
Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
 

On 3/9/2018 9:04 AM, jack.f.mullen@... [STMFC] wrote:
Occam's Razor sez this is a broom handle or some such, perhaps used as a brake club, which was left sticking up from the coal, next to the brakewheel, and the photo happened to catch it at the right angle to create a nice illusion.  

I like this.  It also appears that the height of the coal is equal to that handle but I doubt this was ever done.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS
hayden_tom@...
 

One other possibility is that what appears to be the upper portion of the rod is actually a rod embedded in the pile of coal against and inside the gondola end and the angle of the photo made it appear as an extension of the brake shaft. It seemed strange to me that this extension is above the nut and a different diameter than the shaft. .


Tom Hayden
Richard Townsend
 

That was my thought, too.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: jack.f.mullen@... [STMFC] To: STMFC
Sent: Fri, Mar 9, 2018 9:05 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: the brake wheel staff on this CCC&StL gon is too long

 
OK, it's my turn to be the skeptic. I don't believe this is what it looks like.

The Safety Appliance act specifically requires:
     (v) Brake shaft shall be arranged with a square fit at its upper end to secure
  the hand-brake wheel; said square fit shall be not less than seven-eighths
  of an inch square. Square-fit taper, nominally 2 in 12 inches. (See plate A.)
So the hypothesized sliding brake wheel would be a safety appliance defect.

How do you secure a sliding brake wheel to a ROUND shaft anyway? 

What's the use of dropping the wheel, if the shaft still projects to it's original height.?  

Drop  wheels as commonly used on flats have the wheel secured to the drop shaft, in compliance with the Act, and a square shaft that slides through the lower mechanisim .

If you zoom in very closely, I think you can see that the nut securing the wheel is in front of the supposed staff extension, which seems to be offset very slightly to the right.

Occam's Razor sez this is a broom handle or some such, perhaps used as a brake club, which was left sticking up from the coal, next to the brakewheel, and the photo happened to catch it at the right angle to create a nice illusion.  

Jack Mullen
Benjamin Hom
 


As for car identification, the car number is illegible but the details mostly match CCC&StL 66900-67999, Lot 258-G built 1910 by AC&F.  The major difference is the car in the photo had heap shields, which the clearance diagram and builder's photo of cars in the same lot built for Michigan Central lack.


Ben Hom
Charlie Vlk
 

Tom-

I agree with you….the shadow of the brake wheel is almost parallel to the axis of the car and the shadow of the “too tall brake staff” should be visible aft of the brake wheel on the coal.  It is not, suggesting that the rod is actually stuck in the coal load above the CC&StL stencil.

Charlie Vlk

 

One other possibility is that what appears to be the upper portion of the rod is actually a rod embedded in the pile of coal against and inside the gondola end and the angle of the photo made it appear as an extension of the brake shaft. It seemed strange to me that this extension is above the nut and a different diameter than the shaft. .

 

Tom Hayden
Douglas Harding
 

Charlie your answer would be plausible, except for two reasons:

1)            The car has a fixed end.

2)            The brake gear is mounted on the first corrugation of the end, not on the end beam.

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...]
Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 9:30 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] the brake wheel staff on this CCC&StL gon is too long

 

 

Klaus

The wheel can slide up and down the staff which in turn can be folded to rest on the end beam.  You can see the articulated joint at the base.

I guess that the gondola is convertible for use as a flat which is the normal application for this device

Charlie Vlk


On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:35 AM, 'Claus Schlund' claus@... [STMFC] <STMFC@...> wrote:

 

Hi List Members,

 

Note how the brake wheel staff on this CCC&StL gon is too long – it extends maybe a foot or more above the brake 

 

Had anyone ever modeled that? I wonder how long it would take before anyone in your operating crew noticed!?!

 

 

Claus Schlund

 
John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
 

I enlarged the brake wheel area, fiddled with brightness/contrast and ended up with this.

I am also of the opinion the long object above the brake shaft is some sort of tool, possibly a broom handle?

Anyway it is not part of the brake shaft.

Find photo at

https://tinyurl.com/ya5mz6h9



John Hagen



















From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2018 11:15 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: the brake wheel staff on this CCC&StL gon is too long





That was my thought, too.

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR



-----Original Message-----
From: jack.f.mullen@gmail.com [STMFC] <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
To: STMFC <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 9, 2018 9:05 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: the brake wheel staff on this CCC&StL gon is too long



OK, it's my turn to be the skeptic. I don't believe this is what it looks like.



The Safety Appliance act specifically requires:

(v) Brake shaft shall be arranged with a square fit at its upper end to secure

the hand-brake wheel; said square fit shall be not less than seven-eighths

of an inch square. Square-fit taper, nominally 2 in 12 inches. (See plate A.)

So the hypothesized sliding brake wheel would be a safety appliance defect.





How do you secure a sliding brake wheel to a ROUND shaft anyway?



What's the use of dropping the wheel, if the shaft still projects to it's original height.?





Drop wheels as commonly used on flats have the wheel secured to the drop shaft, in compliance with the Act, and a square shaft that slides through the lower mechanisim .





If you zoom in very closely, I think you can see that the nut securing the wheel is in front of the supposed staff extension, which seems to be offset very slightly to the right.





Occam's Razor sez this is a broom handle or some such, perhaps used as a brake club, which was left sticking up from the coal, next to the brakewheel, and the photo happened to catch it at the right angle to create a nice illusion.





Jack Mullen
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