class of this ATSF box car?


Tim O'Connor
 


Anyone know the class of this automobile box car (clearly a rebuild)?
My guess is Fe-19 but I'd like to be sure.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/362246531472

Tim O'Connor


Eric Lombard
 

Tim, this car agrees in detail with the four photos of Fe-19 cars in my collection. The ends vary since recycled material was used.. There is one restored at the Arizona Ry Museum.  http://www.azrymuseum.org  There are three photos:
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_1.JPG
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_2.JPG
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_3.JPG

Fe-19, ATSF 5200-5599, 400 cars, RBLT 1939-1940 out of  Fe-L, -N, -O, Bx-18, -19, -20. 

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL


Eric Lombard
 

On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Eric Lombard <elombard@...> wrote:
Tim, this car agrees in detail with the four photos of Fe-19 cars in my collection. The ends vary since recycled material was used.. There is one restored at the Arizona Ry Museum.  http://www.azrymuseum.org  There are three photos:
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_1.JPG
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_2.JPG
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_3.JPG

Fe-19, ATSF 5200-5599, 400 cars, RBLT 1939-1940 out of  Fe-L, -N, -O, Bx-18, -19, -20. 

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL



charles slater
 

Eric it could be one of 4 classes of cars all rebuilt from Fe-L, N and O class cars. Have you looked on the underframe for the brake badge plate it will have the class listed on it. The 4 classes of rebuilds all used a lot of different ends recycled from older or junked cars. It is probably an Fe-19 They lasted the longest in service until 1977.

Charlie Slater

Bakersfield, Ca.


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From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Eric Lombard <elombard@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 1:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] class of this ATSF box car?
 
Tim, this car agrees in detail with the four photos of Fe-19 cars in my collection. The ends vary since recycled material was used.. There is one restored at the Arizona Ry Museum.  http://www.azrymuseum.org  There are three photos:
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_1.JPG
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_2.JPG
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_3.JPG

Fe-19, ATSF 5200-5599, 400 cars, RBLT 1939-1940 out of  Fe-L, -N, -O, Bx-18, -19, -20. 

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL


charles slater
 

I forgot to list the 4 classes, senior moment I guess. They are FE-5, 12, 15 and 19.

Charlie Slater

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From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of charles slater <atsfcondr42@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 4:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] class of this ATSF box car?
 

Eric it could be one of 4 classes of cars all rebuilt from Fe-L, N and O class cars. Have you looked on the underframe for the brake badge plate it will have the class listed on it. The 4 classes of rebuilds all used a lot of different ends recycled from older or junked cars. It is probably an Fe-19 They lasted the longest in service until 1977.

Charlie Slater

Bakersfield, Ca.


Sent from Outlook




From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Eric Lombard <elombard@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 1:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] class of this ATSF box car?
 
Tim, this car agrees in detail with the four photos of Fe-19 cars in my collection. The ends vary since recycled material was used.. There is one restored at the Arizona Ry Museum.  http://www.azrymuseum.org  There are three photos:
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_1.JPG
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_2.JPG
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_3.JPG

Fe-19, ATSF 5200-5599, 400 cars, RBLT 1939-1940 out of  Fe-L, -N, -O, Bx-18, -19, -20. 

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL


Tim O'Connor
 


Hmmm... if Charlie Slater is correct about the ends, then your photos appear
to show an Fe-15, which had the same ends as your photos.



The corrected Fe-19 image urls are
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/slvrbox.jpg
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/ATSF%205257.jpg
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_3.JPG:



On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Eric Lombard <elombard@...> wrote:
Tim, this car agrees in detail with the four photos of Fe-19 cars in my collection. The ends vary since recycled material was used.. There is one restored at the Arizona Ry Museum.  http://www.azrymuseum.org  There are three photos:
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_1.JPG
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_2.JPG
http://www.azrymuseum.org/roster/SF232493_3.JPG

Fe-19, ATSF 5200-5599, 400 cars, RBLT 1939-1940 out of  Fe-L, -N, -O, Bx-18, -19, -20.Â

Eric Lombard
Homewood, IL


Eric Lombard
 

Tim and Charlie... and everyone else who might have an interest:

Observations and thoughts...
In my original response(s) I did not consider the the other classes because the physical features of the car indicated Fe-19 to me.
1. The cars get bigger with time:
  1. Fe-5 inside width 9-2, inside height 10-4
  2. Fe-12 inside width 9-3, inside height 10-5
  3. Fe-15 inside width 9-5, inside height 10-5
  4. Fe-19 inside width 9-5, inside height 10-6
2. Some physical details change with time:
  1. Fe-5: at the corners the end plates wrap around and are riveted to the side plates as is seen in early steel cars, the ends of the body bolsters (or bolster extensions?) appear as an I-beam, the side sill reinforcement is confined to little more than the width of the door opening
  2. Fe-12: Photo needed!! 
  3. Fe-15: at the corners the end and side plates are covered by an angle riveted to both, the ends of the body bolsters appear as an I-beam, the side sill reinforcement is confined to little more than the width of the door opening.
  4. Fe-19: at the corners the end and side plates are covered by an angle riveted to both, the ends of the body bolsters are covered by a large channel "tab", the side sill reinforcement extends a side panel width beyond the outer edge of the main door (though I have seen one photo of an early member of the series with the short reinforcement).
The features of the car in question is identical to #4, a Fe-19 as is the car nee #5792 in the Arizona Ry Museum. 

The end features of the cars are apparently NOT class specific - at least that anyone has been able to determine. Rather mixes of "reverse" Dreadnaught and reverse Murphy panels and blank sheets are used in all classes (and in 50-6 cars being rebuilt at the same time). In both cases the two ends of the car may be different.

Some of the cars were renumbered:
Fe-05  63000-63254 RENO 4400-4648  begin 1956
Fe-12  63651-63750 RENO 5100-5199  begin 1953
Fe-15  63255-63504 19 RENO 6360-6378 1943, IH 12-4, end doors, airplane, RENO back 1945-6 to original height
20 RENO 6670-6689  1944, XAP airplane parts, RENO back 1945-6
All remaining cars with end doors  RENO to 6700-6723  1949
Fe-19  5200-5599  5 RENO to 6550-6554? 1957 but off roster 1-1958

Photos of Fe-12s in original or renumbered series are probably rare. There were only 100. None of the usual on-line sites have one, nor any publication I have examined. If someone out there has one I would love to have a peak at it!

Thanks entertaining my thoughts on this!

Eric


Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Eric,

I then suppose the car below is a former Fe-19. The class We-19 almost seems too easy. Photo taken in South Los Angeles, March 1975, complete with an insouciant pigeon on the roof (at extreme left).

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿



On 5/9/18 8:24 PM, Eric Lombard wrote:
Tim and Charlie... and everyone else who might have an interest:

Observations and thoughts...
In my original response(s) I did not consider the the other classes because the physical features of the car indicated Fe-19 to me.
1. The cars get bigger with time:
  1. Fe-5 inside width 9-2, inside height 10-4
  2. Fe-12 inside width 9-3, inside height 10-5
  3. Fe-15 inside width 9-5, inside height 10-5
  4. Fe-19 inside width 9-5, inside height 10-6
2. Some physical details change with time:
  1. Fe-5: at the corners the end plates wrap around and are riveted to the side plates as is seen in early steel cars, the ends of the body bolsters (or bolster extensions?) appear as an I-beam, the side sill reinforcement is confined to little more than the width of the door opening
  2. Fe-12: Photo needed!! 
  3. Fe-15: at the corners the end and side plates are covered by an angle riveted to both, the ends of the body bolsters appear as an I-beam, the side sill reinforcement is confined to little more than the width of the door opening.
  4. Fe-19: at the corners the end and side plates are covered by an angle riveted to both, the ends of the body bolsters are covered by a large channel "tab", the side sill reinforcement extends a side panel width beyond the outer edge of the main door (though I have seen one photo of an early member of the series with the short reinforcement).
The features of the car in question is identical to #4, a Fe-19 as is the car nee #5792 in the Arizona Ry Museum. 

The end features of the cars are apparently NOT class specific - at least that anyone has been able to determine. Rather mixes of "reverse" Dreadnaught and reverse Murphy panels and blank sheets are used in all classes (and in 50-6 cars being rebuilt at the same time). In both cases the two ends of the car may be different.

Some of the cars were renumbered:
Fe-05  63000-63254 RENO 4400-4648  begin 1956
Fe-12  63651-63750 RENO 5100-5199  begin 1953
Fe-15  63255-63504 19 RENO 6360-6378 1943, IH 12-4, end doors, airplane, RENO back 1945-6 to original height
20 RENO 6670-6689  1944, XAP airplane parts, RENO back 1945-6
All remaining cars with end doors  RENO to 6700-6723  1949
Fe-19  5200-5599  5 RENO to 6550-6554? 1957 but off roster 1-1958

Photos of Fe-12s in original or renumbered series are probably rare. There were only 100. None of the usual on-line sites have one, nor any publication I have examined. If someone out there has one I would love to have a peak at it!

Thanks entertaining my thoughts on this!

Eric



charles slater
 

The Fe-5 and 15 also received those large channel side sill tabs in later years, as did the Fe-19.

Charlie


Sent from Outlook




From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Eric Lombard <elombard@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 5:24 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] class of this ATSF box car?
 
Tim and Charlie... and everyone else who might have an interest:

Observations and thoughts...
In my original response(s) I did not consider the the other classes because the physical features of the car indicated Fe-19 to me.
1. The cars get bigger with time:
  1. Fe-5 inside width 9-2, inside height 10-4
  2. Fe-12 inside width 9-3, inside height 10-5
  3. Fe-15 inside width 9-5, inside height 10-5
  4. Fe-19 inside width 9-5, inside height 10-6
2. Some physical details change with time:
  1. Fe-5: at the corners the end plates wrap around and are riveted to the side plates as is seen in early steel cars, the ends of the body bolsters (or bolster extensions?) appear as an I-beam, the side sill reinforcement is confined to little more than the width of the door opening
  2. Fe-12: Photo needed!! 
  3. Fe-15: at the corners the end and side plates are covered by an angle riveted to both, the ends of the body bolsters appear as an I-beam, the side sill reinforcement is confined to little more than the width of the door opening.
  4. Fe-19: at the corners the end and side plates are covered by an angle riveted to both, the ends of the body bolsters are covered by a large channel "tab", the side sill reinforcement extends a side panel width beyond the outer edge of the main door (though I have seen one photo of an early member of the series with the short reinforcement).
The features of the car in question is identical to #4, a Fe-19 as is the car nee #5792 in the Arizona Ry Museum. 

The end features of the cars are apparently NOT class specific - at least that anyone has been able to determine. Rather mixes of "reverse" Dreadnaught and reverse Murphy panels and blank sheets are used in all classes (and in 50-6 cars being rebuilt at the same time). In both cases the two ends of the car may be different.

Some of the cars were renumbered:
Fe-05  63000-63254 RENO 4400-4648  begin 1956
Fe-12  63651-63750 RENO 5100-5199  begin 1953
Fe-15  63255-63504 19 RENO 6360-6378 1943, IH 12-4, end doors, airplane, RENO back 1945-6 to original height
20 RENO 6670-6689  1944, XAP airplane parts, RENO back 1945-6
All remaining cars with end doors  RENO to 6700-6723  1949
Fe-19  5200-5599  5 RENO to 6550-6554? 1957 but off roster 1-1958

Photos of Fe-12s in original or renumbered series are probably rare. There were only 100. None of the usual on-line sites have one, nor any publication I have examined. If someone out there has one I would love to have a peak at it!

Thanks entertaining my thoughts on this!

Eric


charles slater
 

The Santa Fe USUALLY but not always just change the first letter to a "W", however sometimes they were simply marked as "We" and box cars as "Wx" sometimes they were mismarked as coming from the wrong class. 
Charlie Slater


Sent from Outlook




From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 5:58 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] class of this ATSF box car?
 
Eric,

I then suppose the car below is a former Fe-19. The class We-19 almost seems too easy. Photo taken in South Los Angeles, March 1975, complete with an insouciant pigeon on the roof (at extreme left).

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿



On 5/9/18 8:24 PM, Eric Lombard wrote:
Tim and Charlie... and everyone else who might have an interest:

Observations and thoughts...
In my original response(s) I did not consider the the other classes because the physical features of the car indicated Fe-19 to me.
1. The cars get bigger with time:
  1. Fe-5 inside width 9-2, inside height 10-4
  2. Fe-12 inside width 9-3, inside height 10-5
  3. Fe-15 inside width 9-5, inside height 10-5
  4. Fe-19 inside width 9-5, inside height 10-6
2. Some physical details change with time:
  1. Fe-5: at the corners the end plates wrap around and are riveted to the side plates as is seen in early steel cars, the ends of the body bolsters (or bolster extensions?) appear as an I-beam, the side sill reinforcement is confined to little more than the width of the door opening
  2. Fe-12: Photo needed!! 
  3. Fe-15: at the corners the end and side plates are covered by an angle riveted to both, the ends of the body bolsters appear as an I-beam, the side sill reinforcement is confined to little more than the width of the door opening.
  4. Fe-19: at the corners the end and side plates are covered by an angle riveted to both, the ends of the body bolsters are covered by a large channel "tab", the side sill reinforcement extends a side panel width beyond the outer edge of the main door (though I have seen one photo of an early member of the series with the short reinforcement).
The features of the car in question is identical to #4, a Fe-19 as is the car nee #5792 in the Arizona Ry Museum. 

The end features of the cars are apparently NOT class specific - at least that anyone has been able to determine. Rather mixes of "reverse" Dreadnaught and reverse Murphy panels and blank sheets are used in all classes (and in 50-6 cars being rebuilt at the same time). In both cases the two ends of the car may be different.

Some of the cars were renumbered:
Fe-05  63000-63254 RENO 4400-4648  begin 1956
Fe-12  63651-63750 RENO 5100-5199  begin 1953
Fe-15  63255-63504 19 RENO 6360-6378 1943, IH 12-4, end doors, airplane, RENO back 1945-6 to original height
20 RENO 6670-6689  1944, XAP airplane parts, RENO back 1945-6
All remaining cars with end doors  RENO to 6700-6723  1949
Fe-19  5200-5599  5 RENO to 6550-6554? 1957 but off roster 1-1958

Photos of Fe-12s in original or renumbered series are probably rare. There were only 100. None of the usual on-line sites have one, nor any publication I have examined. If someone out there has one I would love to have a peak at it!

Thanks entertaining my thoughts on this!

Eric



Eric Lombard
 

Charlie, et al, that other classes received the "tabs" is great to know. Scratch one possible spotting feature! And I note in the Fe-15 photo you included that the side sill reinforcement is of the long variety extending a side panel's width beyond the right door opening. Scratch a second spotting feature. And I have received a couple of Fe-19 photos without the "tabs" as well. Scratch a third potential spotting feature. It would seem, as you say, that the tabs were added to members of all classes with advancing age. By 1975 the last few Fe-19s in service had underfames between 60 and 64 years old. Come to think of it when I reached into that age bracket I was thinking  "tabs", might be a help, too.

The leaves the formation of the corner between the end and side plates. Fe-15 and Fe-19 have the continuous angle riveted to both the side and end. My suggestion would be that is because of their greater inside width at 9-5 making the reused end-stampings too short to wrap around to the side as in the Fe-5 inside 9-2. Sure would like to see a photo of an Fe-12. At inside width 10-3 it is hard to predict the structure of the corner joint.

Eric


charles slater
 

The underframes by the late 1940's and early 1950's  were rusting out, and like most of the 50 foot Fe-class cars received new bolsters, end sills and draft gear pockets. (see page 58 of the SFRH&MS book Vol. 3 "Furniture and Automobile Box Cars") The small "I" beam tab was only on the AS rebuilt version of these cars.

Charlie Slater 


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From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Eric Lombard <elombard@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 11:15 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] class of this ATSF box car?
 
Charlie, et al, that other classes received the "tabs" is great to know. Scratch one possible spotting feature! And I note in the Fe-15 photo you included that the side sill reinforcement is of the long variety extending a side panel's width beyond the right door opening. Scratch a second spotting feature. And I have received a couple of Fe-19 photos without the "tabs" as well. Scratch a third potential spotting feature. It would seem, as you say, that the tabs were added to members of all classes with advancing age. By 1975 the last few Fe-19s in service had underfames between 60 and 64 years old. Come to think of it when I reached into that age bracket I was thinking  "tabs", might be a help, too.

The leaves the formation of the corner between the end and side plates. Fe-15 and Fe-19 have the continuous angle riveted to both the side and end. My suggestion would be that is because of their greater inside width at 9-5 making the reused end-stampings too short to wrap around to the side as in the Fe-5 inside 9-2. Sure would like to see a photo of an Fe-12. At inside width 10-3 it is hard to predict the structure of the corner joint.

Eric