Boxcar identification help requested
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Folks,
I found the attached photos of PRR 495655 at Bob's Photos at the 50th anniversary PRRT&HS meeting this weekend. The photos pose a real conundrum as to the origin of the boxcar(?) depicted. Here are the facts as I see them
1) The photo is dated 1/43 and appears to document a new MOW conversion, given the gray paint with black lettering and lack of any of the stencils needed for interchange.
2) The car has a straight center sill, AB brakes, and andrews trucks
3) The roof appears to be a new add-on and seriously overhangs the sides. Any suggestions as to the roof type are welcome
4) There is no running board or ladders to reach the roof of the car.
5) There is no end sill.
6) There appears to be a steam line visible on the end of the car.
7) The car has end doors, end grab irons, and a side "express" style door
8) The car is steel with 4 sheets to each side of the door.
Given the andrews truck, I thought X26 rebuild, but the underframe is not a USRA underframe. The sides do not resemble either the X25 or X29 series of cars. Given the steam line, this car may have previously been in express service (and the side and/or end
doors may be a remnant of that, or may be new to the conversion).
So, bottom line? This does not appear to be a modification of any PRR boxcar class as far as I can tell. In discussions this weekend, we postulated that it could be a wreck write off from another road, or possibly, a "scratchbuilt" box from available components.
Can anyone out there identify the car that was used for this MOW conversion?
Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, Al
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naptownprr
Bruce,
That is a conundrum! My guess would be that it is made of parts left over from building troop kitchens during the war.
Jim Hunter
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 11:27 AM To: RealSTMFC@groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested Folks,
I found the attached photos of PRR 495655 at Bob's Photos at the 50th anniversary PRRT&HS meeting this weekend. The photos pose a real conundrum as to the origin of the boxcar(?) depicted. Here are the facts as I see them
1) The photo is dated 1/43 and appears to document a new MOW conversion, given the gray paint with black lettering and lack of any of the stencils needed for interchange.
2) The car has a straight center sill, AB brakes, and andrews trucks
3) The roof appears to be a new add-on and seriously overhangs the sides. Any suggestions as to the roof type are welcome
4) There is no running board or ladders to reach the roof of the car.
5) There is no end sill.
6) There appears to be a steam line visible on the end of the car.
7) The car has end doors, end grab irons, and a side "express" style door
8) The car is steel with 4 sheets to each side of the door.
Given the andrews truck, I thought X26 rebuild, but the underframe is not a USRA underframe. The sides do not resemble either the X25 or X29 series of cars. Given the steam line, this car may have previously been in express service (and the side and/or end
doors may be a remnant of that, or may be new to the conversion).
So, bottom line? This does not appear to be a modification of any PRR boxcar class as far as I can tell. In discussions this weekend, we postulated that it could be a wreck write off from another road, or possibly, a "scratchbuilt" box from available components.
Can anyone out there identify the car that was used for this MOW conversion?
Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, Al
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Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Bruce;
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I have been thinking about this since the Meet (thanks for sharing them!), and I had a few thoughts: The sides have distinct flavor of X29, with post rivets of closer and wider spacing, not a single rivet row, and 4/4 sides; The IH is also similarly low; The shallow X29-like side sill with no substantial evidence of cross-bearers either under the door frame or closer to the trucks; The roof appears to be a lap-seam design, with fairly narrow spacing, but distinct raises where the seam is, possible to minimize water entry. No standing seam caps. Has no look of a commercial roof, more like a home-built job; The use of Crown trucks, which were common on the PRR; The "plate" end, with X29/X31-ish stamped poling pockets; The use of a narrow end walkway and cabin car-like hand grab; The side door looking like an express or baggage car door. And with windows in one end only. This looks to me to be a kind of one-off PRR-built WW2 expedient special purpose car that ran in a wreck train/emergency train. Like maybe responses to WW 2 emergencies along the ROW. I hope we find the correspondence some time. If those inept German saboteurs had done something big, we might've seen this car on the "curve"! Thanks again for sharing! Elden Gatwood
-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 11:28 AM To: RealSTMFC@groups.io Subject: [Non-DoD Source] [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested Folks, I found the attached photos of PRR 495655 at Bob's Photos at the 50th anniversary PRRT&HS meeting this weekend. The photos pose a real conundrum as to the origin of the boxcar(?) depicted. Here are the facts as I see them 1) The photo is dated 1/43 and appears to document a new MOW conversion, given the gray paint with black lettering and lack of any of the stencils needed for interchange. 2) The car has a straight center sill, AB brakes, and andrews trucks 3) The roof appears to be a new add-on and seriously overhangs the sides. Any suggestions as to the roof type are welcome 4) There is no running board or ladders to reach the roof of the car. 5) There is no end sill. 6) There appears to be a steam line visible on the end of the car. 7) The car has end doors, end grab irons, and a side "express" style door 8) The car is steel with 4 sheets to each side of the door. Given the andrews truck, I thought X26 rebuild, but the underframe is not a USRA underframe. The sides do not resemble either the X25 or X29 series of cars. Given the steam line, this car may have previously been in express service (and the side and/or end doors may be a remnant of that, or may be new to the conversion). So, bottom line? This does not appear to be a modification of any PRR boxcar class as far as I can tell. In discussions this weekend, we postulated that it could be a wreck write off from another road, or possibly, a "scratchbuilt" box from available components. Can anyone out there identify the car that was used for this MOW conversion? Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, Al
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Elden, Folks
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Brian Carlson pointed out photos of this car at the Hagley site. It is a “Calcium Carbide” car…. Not that this sheds any light on the origin of the car…
Now the puzzle is complicated by the question what would PRR MOW forces have used a car, likely loaded with sacks of Calcium Carbonate for? Regards Bruce
Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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I believe that calcium carbide was used to generate acetylene gas which was used for welding/brazing and maybe lighting at one time. It is unstable so is shipped dissolved in acetone…not very safe so shipping it as a solid might be safer. Calcium carbonate is the active ingredient in Tums, I think. (Note that two different chemicals are shown in you post) Tom Birkett Bartlesville, OK
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 11:26 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested
Elden, Folks
Brian Carlson pointed out photos of this car at the Hagley site. It is a “Calcium Carbide” car…. Not that this sheds any light on the origin of the car…
Now the puzzle is complicated by the question what would PRR MOW forces have used a car, likely loaded with sacks of Calcium Carbonate for? Regards Bruce
Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Autocorrect got the second one - it is calcium carbide… the dangerous stuff!
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Regards Bruce
Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
Friends,
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Do we get a prize for guessing correctly? Could this car have originally been a horse car used in passenger trains? That would account for the steam pipe. Eldon, note that the three windows seem to be repeated on the opposite side. You can just see one through the end door in the 3/4 view, so the car was probably identical on both sides with three windows to the left of the side doors. Yours Aye, Garth Groff 🏴
On 5/15/18 12:59 PM, Bruce Smith wrote:
Autocorrect got the second one - it is calcium carbide… the dangerous stuff!
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Garth,
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Guessing? nope :) But factually answering? Sure! I doubt your horse car theory, mostly because horse cars in the US were typically full length or nearly so. I did note that it might have an express (box) car in its heritage already ;)
Regards Bruce
Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Richard Orr <suvcworr@...>
Calcium carbonate to treat water. Much of the water available along the PRR mainline was hard which cause a buildup of deposits in the boiler tubes. Track pans especially had water treatment facilities to soften the water and decrease the deposits. Thus decrease maintenance costs. If Calcium carbonite to generate acetylene for welding a wide variety of things or in a wreck train for cutting up wrecks. Transporting in bags was safer than transporting tanks of gas Rich Orr
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Sent: Tue, May 15, 2018 12:26 pm Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested Elden, Folks
Brian Carlson pointed out photos of this car at the Hagley site. It is a “Calcium Carbide” car…. Not that this sheds any light on the origin of the car…
Now the puzzle is complicated by the question what would PRR MOW forces have used a car, likely loaded with sacks of Calcium Carbonate for?
Regards Bruce
Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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David Soderblom
Calcium carbide is indeed used to generate acetylene. Most common use is/was in miners’ helmets. It releases C2H2 when mixed with water, so a small reservoir would drip onto the carbide. I very much doubt that calcium carbide output would be used for welding: just too slow, difficult to regulate, and you buy tanks of gas for that.
Was PRR engaged in a tunneling project at the time? That would explain the need for the material for the workers. David Soderblom Baltimore MD david.soderblom@gmail.com
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What about use for portable flood lights at the site of a derailment?
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Steve Hile
-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Soderblom Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 3:09 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested Calcium carbide is indeed used to generate acetylene. Most common use is/was in miners' helmets. It releases C2H2 when mixed with water, so a small reservoir would drip onto the carbide. I very much doubt that calcium carbide output would be used for welding: just too slow, difficult to regulate, and you buy tanks of gas for that. Was PRR engaged in a tunneling project at the time? That would explain the need for the material for the workers. David Soderblom Baltimore MD david.soderblom@gmail.com
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al_brown03
Thinking about the interior photo, and the racks on the floor. The floor isn't necessarily dry, and you really don't want calcium carbide getting wet. (That's how acetylene is generated from it.) So the racks keep the lading up off the floor. But, why don't the racks cover the whole floor? Are the sacks on pallets? Hmm ...
Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla. (chemist)
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lars svanevik
Group,
Calcium ion, in combination with bicarbonate and carbonate ions. is the the species that causes water to be "hard". Water that contains high concentration of calcium ion, and bicarbonate or carbonate, will precipitate as calcium carbonate when the water is heated. This causes boiler scale. Lars.
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Richard Orr via Groups.Io <suvcworr@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:57 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested
Calcium carbonate to treat water. Much of the water available along the PRR mainline was hard which cause a buildup of deposits in the boiler tubes. Track pans especially had water treatment facilities to soften the water and decrease the deposits. Thus
decrease maintenance costs.
If Calcium carbonite to generate acetylene for welding a wide variety of things or in a wreck train for cutting up wrecks. Transporting in bags was safer than transporting tanks of gas
Rich Orr
-----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Sent: Tue, May 15, 2018 12:26 pm Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested
Elden, Folks
Brian Carlson pointed out photos of this car at the Hagley site. It is a “Calcium Carbide” car…. Not that this sheds any light on the origin of the car…
Now the puzzle is complicated by the question what would PRR MOW forces have used a car, likely loaded with sacks of Calcium Carbonate for?
Regards Bruce
Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Richard Orr <suvcworr@...>
mea culpa my bad I reversed the effect Rich Orr
-----Original Message----- From: lars svanevik <lars.svanevik@...> To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Sent: Tue, May 15, 2018 4:23 pm Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested Group,
Calcium ion, in combination with bicarbonate and carbonate ions. is the the species that causes water to be "hard". Water that contains high concentration of calcium ion, and bicarbonate or carbonate, will precipitate as calcium carbonate when the water is heated. This causes boiler scale. Lars. From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Richard Orr via Groups.Io <suvcworr=aol.com@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 12:57 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested Calcium carbonate to treat water. Much of the water available along the PRR mainline was hard which cause a buildup of deposits in the boiler tubes. Track pans especially had water treatment facilities to soften the water and decrease the deposits. Thus decrease maintenance costs.
If Calcium carbonite to generate acetylene for welding a wide variety of things or in a wreck train for cutting up wrecks. Transporting in bags was safer than transporting tanks of gas
Rich Orr
-----Original Message----- From: Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Sent: Tue, May 15, 2018 12:26 pm Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested Elden, Folks
Brian Carlson pointed out photos of this car at the Hagley site. It is a “Calcium Carbide” car…. Not that this sheds any light on the origin of the car…
Now the puzzle is complicated by the question what would PRR MOW forces have used a car, likely loaded with sacks of Calcium Carbonate for?
Regards Bruce
Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
On 5/15/2018 1:08 PM, David
Soderblom wrote:
I very much doubt that calcium carbide output would be used for welding: just too slow, difficult to regulate When I was in Korea around 69/70 they had
small containers? that used it for just that, welding. Saw lots
of them. -- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, SPROG, JMRI User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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lars svanevik
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 1:58 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested On 5/15/2018 1:08 PM, David Soderblom wrote:
I very much doubt that calcium carbide output would be used for welding: just too slow, difficult to regulate When I was in Korea around 69/70 they had small containers? that used it for just that, welding. Saw lots of them. -- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, SPROG, JMRI User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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staplindave
Before portable electric light plants and generators, I believe they used calcium carbide to provide lighting at derailments.
Dave Staplin
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lars svanevik
Group,
Calcium carbide is the substance for making acetylene. Water plus calcium carbide yields acetylene. Acetylene is unstable in high pressure oxygen and, therefore, containers of calcium carbide may be transported without fear of explosion.
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Jon Miller <atsfus@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 1:58 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested On 5/15/2018 1:08 PM, David Soderblom wrote:
I very much doubt that calcium carbide output would be used for welding: just too slow, difficult to regulate When I was in Korea around 69/70 they had small containers? that used it for just that, welding. Saw lots of them. -- Jon Miller For me time stopped in 1941 Digitrax Chief/Zephyr systems, SPROG, JMRI User NMRA Life member #2623 Member SFRH&MS
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Schuyler Larrabee
I remember my dad talking about "Carbide lamps."
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Long ago enough that I can't recall the context or what kind of lamps, but the miner's lamps seems right. Still, boxcar loads of that for worker's lamps? Were lanterns EVER made that used carbide? Schuyler
-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of staplindave via Groups.Io Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 6:53 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Boxcar identification help requested Before portable electric light plants and generators, I believe they used calcium carbide to provide lighting at derailments. Dave Staplin
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rwitt_2000
I can't contribute much more than what has been discussed, but I do note the car also has a bracket for a rear marker. It seems to be equipped for passenger service, but why.
Could the Hagley site have the caption wrong? Bob Witt
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