Iowa Terminal/PRR gun flat


Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

A year or two ago we discussed an ex-PRR F22 or F23 flat car that survived on the Iowa Terminal Railroad. As I was scanning my father's slides (Glenn G. Groff), I came across a photo of this car taken in 1982. Yes, it was converted by the ITR into a snow plow, but also sports a tower for working on overhead wires. I'm thinking the car is an F22 with most of its wooden deck removed, since there is still one plank at the near end supporting the brake wheel. Note how close the brake wheel is to the corner, and the silver-painted archbar trucks (the ITR's motors and diesel locomotives were orange and silver). Sorry about the loss of the sky tones, but this was a salvage job on a badly overexposed photo.



Yours Aye,


Garth Groff 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


Jim Mischke
 



There is more to this story.  With me present as a child about 1967, the Iowa Terminal chief mechanical officer told my father that the railroad had stolen the flat car.   Needing a flat car, when a PRR flat car came in interchange, they hid it out back in the weeds and forged the paperwork to indicate it had been returned empty to CGW.   Then they waited 10-15 years until the statute of limitations ran out, at which time they fetched it from the weeds and made it into a snowplow.  How is that for planning ahead?

During this interval, a PRR representative did drop by looking for the flat car, but seemed satisfied with the paperwork and left.


Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Jim,

We discussed this story before, but a couple of thing bother me about it. The car is on archbar trucks. They were banned in interchange in 1941-42. And what would such a specialty car be doing in interchange to an Iowa shortline, unless perhaps these cars also ran in general service? While the story may be true, it does seem a bit dodgy.


Can any of our PRR mavens put a date on when these cars would have received cast frame trucks?

In any case, the car was there when my father visited the ITR. Does anyone know if it is still around?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


On 5/19/18 2:42 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:



There is more to this story.  With me present as a child about 1967, the Iowa Terminal chief mechanical officer told my father that the railroad had stolen the flat car.   Needing a flat car, when a PRR flat car came in interchange, they hid it out back in the weeds and forged the paperwork to indicate it had been returned empty to CGW.   Then they waited 10-15 years until the statute of limitations ran out, at which time they fetched it from the weeds and made it into a snowplow.  How is that for planning ahead?

During this interval, a PRR representative did drop by looking for the flat car, but seemed satisfied with the paperwork and left.



hubert mask
 

Great story 

Hubert Mask 


On May 19, 2018, at 2:42 PM, Jim Mischke <jmischke@...> wrote:



There is more to this story.  With me present as a child about 1967, the Iowa Terminal chief mechanical officer told my father that the railroad had stolen the flat car.   Needing a flat car, when a PRR flat car came in interchange, they hid it out back in the weeds and forged the paperwork to indicate it had been returned empty to CGW.   Then they waited 10-15 years until the statute of limitations ran out, at which time they fetched it from the weeds and made it into a snowplow.  How is that for planning ahead?

During this interval, a PRR representative did drop by looking for the flat car, but seemed satisfied with the paperwork and left.


Charles Peck
 

Garth, I certainly agree that the time frame seems shaky for the car to have
arrived with archbar trucks.  However, if I had a guilty conscience over a
stolen car, I would have removed trucks with PRR cast on them and
substituted something less obvious.
Chuck Peck 

On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 2:20 PM, Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:
Jim,

We discussed this story before, but a couple of thing bother me about it. The car is on archbar trucks. They were banned in interchange in 1941-42. And what would such a specialty car be doing in interchange to an Iowa shortline, unless perhaps these cars also ran in general service? While the story may be true, it does seem a bit dodgy.


Can any of our PRR mavens put a date on when these cars would have received cast frame trucks?

In any case, the car was there when my father visited the ITR. Does anyone know if it is still around?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


On 5/19/18 2:42 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:


There is more to this story.  With me present as a child about 1967, the Iowa Terminal chief mechanical officer told my father that the railroad had stolen the flat car.   Needing a flat car, when a PRR flat car came in interchange, they hid it out back in the weeds and forged the paperwork to indicate it had been returned empty to CGW.   Then they waited 10-15 years until the statute of limitations ran out, at which time they fetched it from the weeds and made it into a snowplow.  How is that for planning ahead?

During this interval, a PRR representative did drop by looking for the flat car, but seemed satisfied with the paperwork and left.




Benjamin Hom
 

Garth Groff wrote:
"We discussed this story before, but a couple of thing[s] bother me about it. The car is on archbar trucks. They were banned in interchange in 1941-42. And what would such a specialty car be doing in interchange to an Iowa shortline, unless perhaps these cars also ran in general service? While the story may be true, it does seem a bit dodgy.

Can any of our PRR mavens put a date on when these cars would have received cast frame trucks?"

Checking the PRR Truck Classification Tables posted on Rob Schoenberg's website reveals the following:

- Tracing D70003-B (Revised 1-18-1923) documents that Class F22 and F23 cars built before 3-16-1915 were equipped with Class 2E1F1 Arch Bar trucks, while cars built after 3-16-1915 were equipped with Class 2F-F1 Crown trucks.
http://prr.railfan.net/trucks/D70003-B.pdf

- Tracing D74604-F (Revised 2-6-1929), which superseded tracing D70003, still shows Class F22 and F23 cars equipped with Class 2E1F1 Arch Bar trucks, but by Revision H dated 3-17-1932, the Class 2E1F1 entry has been struck out and replaced by 2F-F1.

- There is no entry for Class 2E1F1 Arch Bar trucks in the next edition of the truck classification tables (Tracing E-98401).

So based on this information, archbar trucks would have been replaced by Crown trucks by March 1932.

I suspect this story was a nice piece of folklore told to entertain a child.


Ben Hom


Benjamin Hom
 

I wrote:
"- Tracing D74604-F (Revised 2-6-1929), which superseded tracing D70003, still shows Class F22 and F23 cars equipped with Class 2E1F1 Arch Bar trucks, but by Revision H dated 3-17-1932, the Class 2E1F1 entry has been struck out and replaced by 2F-F1.

Checking the record of changes in Revision H, Class 2E1F1 was struck out in Revision G dated 12-16-1929.  So Arch Bar truck-equipped Class F22 and F23 flat cars would have had Crown trucks by December 1929.


Ben Hom


Tony Thompson
 

Story sure has the scent of an urban legend. Several railroads have stories suspiciously similar.

Tony Thompson 


On May 19, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...> wrote:

Garth, I certainly agree that the time frame seems shaky for the car to have
arrived with archbar trucks.  However, if I had a guilty conscience over a
stolen car, I would have removed trucks with PRR cast on them and
substituted something less obvious.
Chuck Peck 

On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 2:20 PM, Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:
Jim,

We discussed this story before, but a couple of thing bother me about it. The car is on archbar trucks. They were banned in interchange in 1941-42. And what would such a specialty car be doing in interchange to an Iowa shortline, unless perhaps these cars also ran in general service? While the story may be true, it does seem a bit dodgy.


Can any of our PRR mavens put a date on when these cars would have received cast frame trucks?

In any case, the car was there when my father visited the ITR. Does anyone know if it is still around?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


On 5/19/18 2:42 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:


There is more to this story.  With me present as a child about 1967, the Iowa Terminal chief mechanical officer told my father that the railroad had stolen the flat car.   Needing a flat car, when a PRR flat car came in interchange, they hid it out back in the weeds and forged the paperwork to indicate it had been returned empty to CGW.   Then they waited 10-15 years until the statute of limitations ran out, at which time they fetched it from the weeds and made it into a snowplow.  How is that for planning ahead?

During this interval, a PRR representative did drop by looking for the flat car, but seemed satisfied with the paperwork and left.




Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Tony,

Ah, but it did happen on the Lasalle & Bureau County, post period I'm afraid.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

On 5/19/18 7:58 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Story sure has the scent of an urban legend. Several railroads have stories suspiciously similar.

Tony Thompson 


On May 19, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...> wrote:

Garth, I certainly agree that the time frame seems shaky for the car to have
arrived with archbar trucks.  However, if I had a guilty conscience over a
stolen car, I would have removed trucks with PRR cast on them and
substituted something less obvious.
Chuck Peck 

On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 2:20 PM, Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:
Jim,

We discussed this story before, but a couple of thing bother me about it. The car is on archbar trucks. They were banned in interchange in 1941-42. And what would such a specialty car be doing in interchange to an Iowa shortline, unless perhaps these cars also ran in general service? While the story may be true, it does seem a bit dodgy.


Can any of our PRR mavens put a date on when these cars would have received cast frame trucks?

In any case, the car was there when my father visited the ITR. Does anyone know if it is still around?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


On 5/19/18 2:42 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:


There is more to this story.  With me present as a child about 1967, the Iowa Terminal chief mechanical officer told my father that the railroad had stolen the flat car.   Needing a flat car, when a PRR flat car came in interchange, they hid it out back in the weeds and forged the paperwork to indicate it had been returned empty to CGW.   Then they waited 10-15 years until the statute of limitations ran out, at which time they fetched it from the weeds and made it into a snowplow.  How is that for planning ahead?

During this interval, a PRR representative did drop by looking for the flat car, but seemed satisfied with the paperwork and left.





Tony Thompson
 

So they all say (g).
Tony 


On May 19, 2018, at 5:49 PM, Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:

Tony,

Ah, but it did happen on the Lasalle & Bureau County, post period I'm afraid.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

On 5/19/18 7:58 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Story sure has the scent of an urban legend. Several railroads have stories suspiciously similar.

Tony Thompson 


On May 19, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Charles Peck <lnnrr152@...> wrote:

Garth, I certainly agree that the time frame seems shaky for the car to have
arrived with archbar trucks.  However, if I had a guilty conscience over a
stolen car, I would have removed trucks with PRR cast on them and
substituted something less obvious.
Chuck Peck 

On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 2:20 PM, Garth Groff <sarahsan@...> wrote:
Jim,

We discussed this story before, but a couple of thing bother me about it. The car is on archbar trucks. They were banned in interchange in 1941-42. And what would such a specialty car be doing in interchange to an Iowa shortline, unless perhaps these cars also ran in general service? While the story may be true, it does seem a bit dodgy.


Can any of our PRR mavens put a date on when these cars would have received cast frame trucks?

In any case, the car was there when my father visited the ITR. Does anyone know if it is still around?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿


On 5/19/18 2:42 PM, Jim Mischke wrote:


There is more to this story.  With me present as a child about 1967, the Iowa Terminal chief mechanical officer told my father that the railroad had stolen the flat car.   Needing a flat car, when a PRR flat car came in interchange, they hid it out back in the weeds and forged the paperwork to indicate it had been returned empty to CGW.   Then they waited 10-15 years until the statute of limitations ran out, at which time they fetched it from the weeds and made it into a snowplow.  How is that for planning ahead?

During this interval, a PRR representative did drop by looking for the flat car, but seemed satisfied with the paperwork and left.





Tim O'Connor
 


Uh, no, it didn't. More urban legend.


Tony,

Ah, but it did happen on the Lasalle & Bureau County, post period I'm afraid.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff



Clark Propst
 

The oldest photos I have of that car are from 61. In Feb it was still MC&CL silver, by Nov it was Iowa Terminal orange. It’s had different plows and at one time a working platform. Still on the property, but hasn’t been used for years.
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa