Covered hopper traffic patterns was Travels Of B&O N-34 Covered Hoppers


Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

The issue with “could” versus “likely” might be important… while any car that was approved for interchange “could” travel anywhere in the US connected to the standard gauge network of tracks, I think that covered hoppers in cement service typically remained relatively local to regional in distribution (much like their open brethren in mineral service). Hence, modeling the PRR, I feel pretty comfortable with a B&O N-34 showing up. Even in the midst of WWII, I would be much less comfortable with an SP or UP covered hopped appearing. Now, some railroads get tricky.  For example, the AT&SF and PRR had a connection in Chicago, so would a Santa Fe hopper of any ilk be appropriate? If I modeled Lines West, I might be happy with that but I am less so in my Lines East location.  Whereas I am quite confident that ATSF boxcars, flatcars, SFRD Reefers and the occasional gondola are quite appropriate for my eastern PA location. 

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On May 31, 2018, at 8:09 AM, Roger Huber via Groups.Io <trainpainter@...> wrote:

Ben,

So you don't hang of MR's word as gospel? lol I guess you and I are in the minority thinking that. I finally came to that realization back many years ago with a glowing review of a Tyco diesel I had experience with and knew it was just stroking an advertiser.

With the loss of some serious modelers the quality of everything has diminished to a waste of ink and electrons to me. 

I think the interchange system in place and the sales departments of the railroads and companies served would dictate any car could end up most anywhere. I know of no restrictions as to interchanging cars that are eligible for that service. A company could also dictate which railroad routing they used so anything ought to be possible.

No photos..........no proof.


Benjamin Hom
 

Roger Huber wrote:
"So you don't hang of MR's word as gospel? lol I guess you and I are in the minority thinking that. I finally came to that realization back many years ago with a glowing review of a Tyco diesel I had experience with and knew it was just stroking an advertiser."

My thoughts 14(!) years ago after a laughable Terry Thompson review of the initial release of the Trix UP freight cars in MR.


"With the loss of some serious modelers the quality of everything has diminished to a waste of ink and electrons to me."

So...why exactly are you here?


Ben Hom


Roger Huber <trainpainter@...>
 


"With the loss of some serious modelers the quality of everything has diminished to a waste of ink and electrons to me."

So...why exactly are you here?

Ben Hom


Roger Huber <trainpainter@...>
 

Ben,
Sorry you misunderstood my post.
My comment on the loss of serious modelers was in reference to many of the "newer" MR Staff members who, as you pointed out, haven't the same input as Andy, Jeff and some of the other more professional staff members. I feel it has made the magazine  much less important to us as modelers and more a beginners guide.

I'm HERE because I consider myself a serious modeler and appreciate the discussions and information this group provides and this old horse can always learn something.

Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works


Jim Betz
 

Hi,
  To add to what Bruce is saying - cement service is rarely 'long distance'.  Any
routing longer than 100 to 200 miles would pass several closer plants/users.
Cement is relatively heavy stuff.  Most cement shipping is predictable by
project and/or season.  Covered hoppers in cement service were usually
in that same service - only - for long periods of time.  Think "Interstate
construction in an area", "the building of a dam", etc.
  So, although cement hoppers were not typically stenciled for 'captive
service' - they were, for all intents and purposes used that way - with
periodic reassignments as necessary.
  I have not researched other uses of early covered hoppers but I
suspect that similar things could be said of those services as well.
For example - if you are shipping sand for ceramic use ... the supply
point(s) and the plant(s) using it are going to be the same.  And the
user is going to find the closest source for the product they need.
  Bottom line - it's a slippery slope to think of covered hoppers as
"general service cars".  And it's even slipperier for the early hoppers.
                                           - Jim B.


Aley, Jeff A
 

Somewhere around here, I’ve got some data showing the average (mean) distance travelled by various commodities.  Perhaps it’s in the STMFC archives, which are now searchable.  Anyway, as Jim says, cement doesn’t travel very far.  Its availability, high density, and low value make it uneconomical and unnecessary to ship long distances.

 

Other commodities, however, such as trona and soda ash, did not have many sources, and therefore did travel long distances in early covered hoppers.  However, it does seem that the cars were in “almost captive” service as stated by Jim.  The LO’s serving the soda ash and trona industries on the UP in Wyoming & Idaho were (according to Freight Conductor’s books) entirely home-road and leased cars.  No B&O N-34’s were confiscated for this traffic (in the data that I have).

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

P.S. I can dig out the primary source data if anyone is REALLY interested.

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 7:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Covered hopper traffic patterns was Travels Of B&O N-34 Covered Hoppers

 

Hi,
  To add to what Bruce is saying - cement service is rarely 'long distance'.  Any
routing longer than 100 to 200 miles would pass several closer plants/users.
Cement is relatively heavy stuff.  Most cement shipping is predictable by
project and/or season.  Covered hoppers in cement service were usually
in that same service - only - for long periods of time.  Think "Interstate
construction in an area", "the building of a dam", etc.
  So, although cement hoppers were not typically stenciled for 'captive
service' - they were, for all intents and purposes used that way - with
periodic reassignments as necessary.
  I have not researched other uses of early covered hoppers but I
suspect that similar things could be said of those services as well.
For example - if you are shipping sand for ceramic use ... the supply
point(s) and the plant(s) using it are going to be the same.  And the
user is going to find the closest source for the product they need.
  Bottom line - it's a slippery slope to think of covered hoppers as
"general service cars".  And it's even slipperier for the early hoppers.
                                           - Jim B.


Richard Townsend
 

Here are a couple of possibilities from the southern Illinois area the B&O served. The info is from the Illinois State Geological Survey.

Tripoli is a highly porous rock that consists of tiny particles of quartz. Deposits in Illinois are found in the extreme southern portion of the state. Tripoli is used in the ceramic industry, in polishing optical lenses, as paint filler, and as a fine abrasive.
Fluorite, lead, and zinc production were historically important in Illinois. Fluorite, the official state mineral, metallic lead, and zinc ores are no longer mined in the state.
Beginning in the 1840s, mines were opened in the southeastern tip of the state in Hardin and Pope Counties to initially obtain galena (lead ore) and later fluorite. Illinois fluorite comprised more than 90 percent of the total U.S. production in the early 1980s, but competition from lower priced imports resulted in the last mine closing in 1996.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Aley, Jeff A <Jeff.A.Aley@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, May 31, 2018 8:59 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Covered hopper traffic patterns was Travels Of B&O N-34 Covered Hoppers

Somewhere around here, I’ve got some data showing the average (mean) distance travelled by various commodities.  Perhaps it’s in the STMFC archives, which are now searchable.  Anyway, as Jim says, cement doesn’t travel very far.  Its availability, high density, and low value make it uneconomical and unnecessary to ship long distances.
 
Other commodities, however, such as trona and soda ash, did not have many sources, and therefore did travel long distances in early covered hoppers.  However, it does seem that the cars were in “almost captive” service as stated by Jim.  The LO’s serving the soda ash and trona industries on the UP in Wyoming & Idaho were (according to Freight Conductor’s books) entirely home-road and leased cars.  No B&O N-34’s were confiscated for this traffic (in the data that I have).
 
Regards,
 
-Jeff
 
P.S. I can dig out the primary source data if anyone is REALLY interested.
 
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 7:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Covered hopper traffic patterns was Travels Of B&O N-34 Covered Hoppers
 
Hi,
  To add to what Bruce is saying - cement service is rarely 'long distance'.  Any
routing longer than 100 to 200 miles would pass several closer plants/users.
Cement is relatively heavy stuff.  Most cement shipping is predictable by
project and/or season.  Covered hoppers in cement service were usually
in that same service - only - for long periods of time.  Think "Interstate
construction in an area", "the building of a dam", etc.
  So, although cement hoppers were not typically stenciled for 'captive
service' - they were, for all intents and purposes used that way - with
periodic reassignments as necessary.
  I have not researched other uses of early covered hoppers but I
suspect that similar things could be said of those services as well.
For example - if you are shipping sand for ceramic use ... the supply
point(s) and the plant(s) using it are going to be the same.  And the
user is going to find the closest source for the product they need.
  Bottom line - it's a slippery slope to think of covered hoppers as
"general service cars".  And it's even slipperier for the early hoppers.
                                           - Jim B.


Jeffrey White
 

There was a zinc operation in Sandoval, IL. Sandoval was served by the IC Gruber line and the B&O main to St Louis went through Sandoval. The smelter was on the B&O on the east side of town and looking on Google Earth there was a connection from the IC line to the B&O line. It’s conceivable that something came from deep Southern Illinois on the IC and went to the zinc operation on the B&O. The IC line was removed in the 1990s but the connection is clearly visible.

When I get home I’ll look at my IC information and see if I can find out what was interchanged there.

Jeff White
Alma, IL
Sent from EarthLink Mobile mail

On 5/31/18, 11:28, Richard Townsend via Groups.Io <richtownsend=netscape.net@groups.io> wrote:

From: Richard Townsend via Groups.Io <richtownsend=netscape.net@groups.io>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Covered hopper traffic patterns was Travels Of B&O N-34 Covered Hoppers
Date: May 31, 2018 at 11:28:38 CDT
Here are a couple of possibilities from the southern Illinois area the B&O served. The info is from the Illinois State Geological Survey.

Tripoli is a highly porous rock that consists of tiny particles of quartz. Deposits in Illinois are found in the extreme southern portion of the state. Tripoli is used in the ceramic industry, in polishing optical lenses, as paint filler, and as a fine abrasive.
Fluorite, lead, and zinc production were historically important in Illinois. Fluorite, the official state mineral, metallic lead, and zinc ores are no longer mined in the state.
Beginning in the 1840s, mines were opened in the southeastern tip of the state in Hardin and Pope Counties to initially obtain galena (lead ore) and later fluorite. Illinois fluorite comprised more than 90 percent of the total U.S. production in the early 1980s, but competition from lower priced imports resulted in the last mine closing in 1996.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Aley, Jeff A <Jeff.A.Aley@intel.com>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Thu, May 31, 2018 8:59 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Covered hopper traffic patterns was Travels Of B&O N-34 Covered Hoppers

Somewhere around here, I’ve got some data showing the average (mean) distance travelled by various commodities.  Perhaps it’s in the STMFC archives, which are now searchable.  Anyway, as Jim says, cement doesn’t travel very far.  Its availability, high density, and low value make it uneconomical and unnecessary to ship long distances.
 
Other commodities, however, such as trona and soda ash, did not have many sources, and therefore did travel long distances in early covered hoppers.  However, it does seem that the cars were in “almost captive” service as stated by Jim.  The LO’s serving the soda ash and trona industries on the UP in Wyoming & Idaho were (according to Freight Conductor’s books) entirely home-road and leased cars.  No B&O N-34’s were confiscated for this traffic (in the data that I have).
 
Regards,
 
-Jeff
 
P.S. I can dig out the primary source data if anyone is REALLY interested.
 
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jim Betz
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 7:50 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Covered hopper traffic patterns was Travels Of B&O N-34 Covered Hoppers
 
Hi,
  To add to what Bruce is saying - cement service is rarely 'long distance'.  Any
routing longer than 100 to 200 miles would pass several closer plants/users.
Cement is relatively heavy stuff.  Most cement shipping is predictable by
project and/or season.  Covered hoppers in cement service were usually
in that same service - only - for long periods of time.  Think "Interstate
construction in an area", "the building of a dam", etc.
  So, although cement hoppers were not typically stenciled for 'captive
service' - they were, for all intents and purposes used that way - with
periodic reassignments as necessary.
  I have not researched other uses of early covered hoppers but I
suspect that similar things could be said of those services as well.
For example - if you are shipping sand for ceramic use ... the supply
point(s) and the plant(s) using it are going to be the same.  And the
user is going to find the closest source for the product they need.
  Bottom line - it's a slippery slope to think of covered hoppers as
"general service cars".  And it's even slipperier for the early hoppers.
                                           - Jim B.


 

Many freight cars are stenciled to be returned to when empty. Here's a Santa Fe 2 bay covered hopper stenciled to be returned to Oceanside when empty.
Andy Jackson
Santa Fe Springs CA



ottokroutil
 

There are photos of CB&Q covered hoppers in Cajon Pass in the late steam era (and also specifically at the Oro Grande cement plant switch lead) that I've always wondered about. If cement hoppers don't travel far, what are they doing there? Did they deliver some valuable or unique commodity to SoCal only to be appropriated for local cement service?
Needless to say, I've acquired a couple for my SoCal layout...
Interesting topic.
Regards,
Otto Kroutil


Aley, Jeff A
 

I went and looked at the Freight Conductor's Train book data that I have.

For the Lone Star Cement plant in Sunflower (Bonner Springs), KS the overwhelming majority of the LO's were UP. However, there was one car from the Pennsy (PRR 100246) and one car from the B&O (B&O 65653). Is the latter an N-34?

There were also a couple of ATSF cars.

Regards,

-Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of ottokroutil via Groups.Io
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2018 3:48 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Covered hopper traffic patterns was Travels Of B&O N-34 Covered Hoppers

There are photos of CB&Q covered hoppers in Cajon Pass in the late steam era (and also specifically at the Oro Grande cement plant switch lead) that I've always wondered about. If cement hoppers don't travel far, what are they doing there? Did they deliver some valuable or unique commodity to SoCal only to be appropriated for local cement service?
Needless to say, I've acquired a couple for my SoCal layout...
Interesting topic.
Regards,
Otto Kroutil


Tony Thompson
 

Many railroad employees report paying no attention to such stenciled directives.
Tony Thompson 


On May 31, 2018, at 12:47 PM, Andy Jackson <lajrmdlr@...> wrote:

Many freight cars are stenciled to be returned to when empty. Here's a Santa Fe 2 bay covered hopper stenciled to be returned to Oceanside when empty.
Andy Jackson
Santa Fe Springs CA


<ATSF 182071 - SILICA SAND RETURN TO O'SIDE WHEN EMPTY.jpg a-001.jpg a-001.jpg>


 

The Los Angeles Junction Ry received 20 Santa Fe 2 bay covered hoppers of silica sand per day for two glass bottle places. Guessing most had that stencil on them. And since Santa Fe had controlling interest in LAJ, it would be a good bet LAJ employees paid attention to the stencils.
Andy Jackson


Andy Laurent
 


Jeff,
Was this the source you're thinking of?  Charles Hostetler posted this as the first in a series of blog entries on cement commodity flows.

Andy L
Iowa

Part 1: http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2013/12/commodity-flows-of-portland-cement.html 

Part 2: http://cnwmodeling.blogspot.com/2013/12/cement-flows-part-2-wisconsin-scene.html 


James Evans <NHJJ4@...>
 

 Ben,
  You hit the nail on the head. I for one don't buy a publication unless there is something I like or want to learn about. Those full page adds or multi page adds are a joke. That is all they care about.
  A Review is a joke a lot of times ( read between the lines ) Running quality or missing detail ?? Can't up set the  manufacture They pay my wage ?? AND Nobody will call them out on it.
  But just maybe if people would tell the truth every now and then just maybe the manufactures would try and get it right. I mean if Everybody has the same complaint just maybe they would learn ?? But then LOL.

 Jim Evans

In a message dated 5/31/2018 6:41:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, b.hom@... writes:

Roger Huber wrote:
"So you don't hang of MR's word as gospel? lol I guess you and I are in the minority thinking that. I finally came to that realization back many years ago with a glowing review of a Tyco diesel I had experience with and knew it was just stroking an advertiser."

My thoughts 14(!) years ago after a laughable Terry Thompson review of the initial release of the Trix UP freight cars in MR.


"With the loss of some serious modelers the quality of everything has diminished to a waste of ink and electrons to me."

So...why exactly are you here?


Ben Hom