Topics

USRA Cabooses

Seth Lakin
 

A question for the group. I have not had any luck finding a roster of USRA and USRA copy wood cabooses. 

I know the following roads had them and a partial list of numbers. 
Boston & Maine ?-?
Central Vermont 4050-4052
Pittsburgh & Shawmut 163-167
Ulster & Delaware 641-650 became
New York Central 20090-20099

Can anyone add to the list. 

Thanks
Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN

Roger Huber
 

Maryland & Pennsylvania 2007

Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works


On Monday, July 30, 2018, 3:55:09 PM CDT, Seth Lakin via Groups.Io <lakinsa@...> wrote:


A question for the group. I have not had any luck finding a roster of USRA and USRA copy wood cabooses. 

I know the following roads had them and a partial list of numbers. 
Boston & Maine ?-?
Central Vermont 4050-4052
Pittsburgh & Shawmut 163-167
Ulster & Delaware 641-650 became
New York Central 20090-20099

Can anyone add to the list. 

Thanks
Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN

Dave Parker
 

Seth:

I don't recall ever hearing any of the B&M cabooses referred to as "USRA".  I am some distance away from my copy of the late Tim Gilbert's book on the B&M's cabeese, but I'll try to remember to double-check it in about a week.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA

Bill Welch
 

Clinchfield owned several w/their own unique steps. I bought two F&C kits to build models. Sorry but do not have time right now to enumerate. I do have photos of three numbers, 1020, 1021, and 1029. I do not know why but Clinchfield USRA hoppers and cabooses used CC&O reporting marks well into the 1950's and maybe beyond.

Bill Welch

Seth Lakin
 

Dave, according to the Gordon Odegard article in the Jan 79 MR the B&M did. There is a photo of a B&M car but I could make out the number and was unable to find anymore photos of B&M cars on the few websites I visited. 

Seth

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Seth,

The RF&P had cabooses which appear to be USRA or clones. I have no information about them, except that in 1950 several were sold to the Pacific Electric. Ira Swett's CARS OF PACIFIC ELECTRIC, Vol. 3 has photos of three, said in the rather random text to be the last cabooses purchased outright for the PE. The text does not tell us how many, but there are photos of 1977, 1981 and 1984. They were in a series of used eastern cars of other designs which went as high as 1985 (1975 is an ex-LV car with an offset cupola), so it is likely there were at least 9 ex-RF&P cars, 1977-1985. Whether 1976 was a USRA car I can't say, but there might have been 10. The cars differ from the Clinchfield caboose Bill showed us in that they had passenger-type steps. 1977 and 1978 were preserved at the Pomona fairgrounds back in the 1960s (I have two photos, among of my earliest), but I have no idea if they still survive.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

On 7/30/18 4:54 PM, Seth Lakin via Groups.Io wrote:
A question for the group. I have not had any luck finding a roster of USRA and USRA copy wood cabooses. 

I know the following roads had them and a partial list of numbers. 
Boston & Maine ?-?
Central Vermont 4050-4052
Pittsburgh & Shawmut 163-167
Ulster & Delaware 641-650 became
New York Central 20090-20099

Can anyone add to the list. 

Thanks
Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN
_._,_._,_

Dave Parker
 

Seth, I am not familiar with that article, nor the photo.  The B&M did have some shorter wood-body cabooses, usually (always?) with three windows.  Their resemblance to the USRA cars seems pretty distant to me eye.

Google up "B&M caboose 104610" and see what you think.  It is currently on display in White River Jct.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA

WILLIAM PARDIE
 

I photograhed severl of the Pacific Eectric cabooses at the Orange Empire Rail Museum (Paris, Ca) about ten years ago.
I don't know if these were the same cars as at Pomona. 

This raises a question.  It was thought that the cars that PE purchased were allq wood cars.  One of the cars in the book that Garth referenced was definitly steel.  I have never been able to get any information on this.  I have an Overland RP&F steel caboose that I would like to finish as PE but am concerned
as to the accuracy.

Bill Pardie

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
Date: 7/30/18 12:49 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] USRA Cabooses

Seth,

The RF&P had cabooses which appear to be USRA or clones. I have no information about them, except that in 1950 several were sold to the Pacific Electric. Ira Swett's CARS OF PACIFIC ELECTRIC, Vol. 3 has photos of three, said in the rather random text to be the last cabooses purchased outright for the PE. The text does not tell us how many, but there are photos of 1977, 1981 and 1984. They were in a series of used eastern cars of other designs which went as high as 1985 (1975 is an ex-LV car with an offset cupola), so it is likely there were at least 9 ex-RF&P cars, 1977-1985. Whether 1976 was a USRA car I can't say, but there might have been 10. The cars differ from the Clinchfield caboose Bill showed us in that they had passenger-type steps. 1977 and 1978 were preserved at the Pomona fairgrounds back in the 1960s (I have two photos, among of my earliest), but I have no idea if they still survive.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

On 7/30/18 4:54 PM, Seth Lakin via Groups.Io wrote:
A question for the group. I have not had any luck finding a roster of USRA and USRA copy wood cabooses. 

I know the following roads had them and a partial list of numbers. 
Boston & Maine ?-?
Central Vermont 4050-4052
Pittsburgh & Shawmut 163-167
Ulster & Delaware 641-650 became
New York Central 20090-20099

Can anyone add to the list. 

Thanks
Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN
_._,_._,_

Charles Tapper
 

Pittsburgh and West Virginia had wood USRA-style cabooses before they acquired steel cars.  Caboose 804 looks like it is. I don't have my resources handy, but I'm thinking at least 804-812 could be USRA wood cars. The P&WV had some others with straight coupola sides that look like USRA cars otherwise, from photos 802 is such a car.  If I do any of these I will use the F&C kit.

Lehigh and Hudson River had them as well.

Charlie Tapper


On Monday, July 30, 2018, 6:06:40 PM CDT, Dave Parker via Groups.Io <spottab@...> wrote:


Seth, I am not familiar with that article, nor the photo.  The B&M did have some shorter wood-body cabooses, usually (always?) with three windows.  Their resemblance to the USRA cars seems pretty distant to me eye.

Google up "B&M caboose 104610" and see what you think.  It is currently on display in White River Jct.

Dave Parker
Riverside, CA

Paul Koehler
 

Bill:

 

The overland RF&P caboose is correct for the PE.  Check the Copeland PE book for pictures.

 

Paul C. Koehler

 


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of WILLIAM PARDIE
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 4:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] USRA Cabooses

 

I photograhed severl of the Pacific Eectric cabooses at the Orange Empire Rail Museum (Paris, Ca) about ten years ago.

I don't know if these were the same cars as at Pomona. 

 

This raises a question.  It was thought that the cars that PE purchased were allq wood cars.  One of the cars in the book that Garth referenced was definitly steel.  I have never been able to get any information on this.  I have an Overland RP&F steel caboose that I would like to finish as PE but am concerned

as to the accuracy.

 

Bill Pardie

 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>

Date: 7/30/18 12:49 PM (GMT-10:00)

To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io

Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] USRA Cabooses

 

Seth,

The RF&P had cabooses which appear to be USRA or clones. I have no information about them, except that in 1950 several were sold to the Pacific Electric. Ira Swett's CARS OF PACIFIC ELECTRIC, Vol. 3 has photos of three, said in the rather random text to be the last cabooses purchased outright for the PE. The text does not tell us how many, but there are photos of 1977, 1981 and 1984. They were in a series of used eastern cars of other designs which went as high as 1985 (1975 is an ex-LV car with an offset cupola), so it is likely there were at least 9 ex-RF&P cars, 1977-1985. Whether 1976 was a USRA car I can't say, but there might have been 10. The cars differ from the Clinchfield caboose Bill showed us in that they had passenger-type steps. 1977 and 1978 were preserved at the Pomona fairgrounds back in the 1960s (I have two photos, among of my earliest), but I have no idea if they still survive.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

On 7/30/18 4:54 PM, Seth Lakin via Groups.Io wrote:

A question for the group. I have not had any luck finding a roster of USRA and USRA copy wood cabooses. 

I know the following roads had them and a partial list of numbers. 
Boston & Maine ?-?
Central Vermont 4050-4052
Pittsburgh & Shawmut 163-167
Ulster & Delaware 641-650 became
New York Central 20090-20099

Can anyone add to the list. 

Thanks
Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN

Armand Premo
 

GTNE and St J LC ex CV.Armand Premo

James E Kubanick
 

Lake Erie Franklin & Clarion (LEF&C) too.

Jim Kubanick


On Monday, July 30, 2018 8:03 PM, Armand Premo <arm.p.prem@...> wrote:


GTNE and St J LC ex CV.Armand Premo


Donald B. Valentine
 

Hi Seth,

    The Boston & Maine had noting really close to any USRA designed cabeese.

Cordially, Don Valentine

Virus-free. www.avast.com

mofwcaboose
 

The B&M cabooses were second hand from the Lehigh & New England. B&M C-90 - C-92 were from the L&NE series 574 - 578, built by Magor in 1931. B&M cabooses C-93 - C-95 were former L&NE 571 - 573, built by PSC in 1929.

The Pittsburg & Shawmut cabooses were in series 163 - 172 (ten cars).

The Lake Erie, Franklin & Clarion cabooses were numbers 8 and 9, most likely ex-P&S cars.

The Clinchfield cabooses began with 1020.

The wooden Reading cabooses were copies of the steel cabooses Reading had been building since 1924. These were based on the USRA design but some of the dimensions were not identical. The Reading built 50 wood-sided ones during WWII to conserve steel, designated class NMn, numbered 92930 - 92979. One of them, 92947,  became Maryland & Pennsylvania 2007. Around the same time Reading also built eight for the Lehigh & Hudson River.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Seth Lakin via Groups.Io <lakinsa@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Jul 30, 2018 7:51 pm
Subject: [RealSTMFC] USRA Cabooses

A question for the group. I have not had any luck finding a roster of USRA and USRA copy wood cabooses. 

I know the following roads had them and a partial list of numbers. 
Boston & Maine ?-?
Central Vermont 4050-4052
Pittsburgh & Shawmut 163-167
Ulster & Delaware 641-650 became
New York Central 20090-20099

Can anyone add to the list. 

Thanks
Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN

James McDonald
 

Hello Garth, Bill, and list,

At first glance the RF&P cabs may appear to be USRA design, but they actually pre-date the USRA proposed caboose specs by some time and are dimensionally different.

The RF&P began building cabooses with 25’ bodies by at least 1904. It is not clear from the records whether earlier cabooses had similar dimensions, but the 25’ cars (initially RFP 803-845, not continuous) built in 1904-05 formed the core design to which the railroad’s subsequent cabooses would be built for almost forty years.

There were some design changes over time. The 1904 cars had archbar trucks and wooden underframes. In 1907 the railroad built 8 more of the same design but with composite underframes, these cars were numbered into gaps in the range of the wooden underframed cars.

In 1918 and 1919 the RF&P began retrofitting their wooden underframed cabooses with steel underframes as well as constructing additional cabooses to the same dimensions with steel underframes. These can be differentiated by the appearance of the side sill. The rebuilding process also included the replacement of steps.

It is presumed, but not confirmed, that the Washington Southern’s cabooses (WS 901-912), which were of the same design and also built by the RF&P’s shops, were also rebuilt with steel underframes at this time. It also seems that cabooses numbered WS 907-912 were constructed at this time and probably had steel underframes from their construction date. Records, to the extent they exist, are extremely contradictory. In fact, in some sources the WS and RF&P numbers are switched entirely, although this appears to be a clerical error. After the WS was merged into the RF&P the ex-WS cars kept their original numbers making the range of this car design RF&P 801-912, although the entire range was not filled.

Dimensionally the design barely changed from the 1904 specs. The carbody was 25’ 0” long. The distance between truck centers was 16’ 4” and the cars were 30’ 10” over strikers. Their extreme width was 8’ 10 3/4”. Their height changed after the rebuilding to steel underframes, lowering them slightly from 14’ 5” to 14’ 41/2”, encompassing their 3’ 8” tall cupola.

In the period after WWII the railroad began to sheath the cars in plywood, but restoration efforts on remaining cabooses have revealed that the railroad appears to have merely left the original tongue & groove siding in place and covered it over with ply. Contrary to Overland’s labeling, there were no steel versions of this caboose design. The first steel cabooses to arrive on the RF&P were the first order of ICC Wide Vision cabs 901-903 delivered in 1970.

My research also indicates that 9 of the 25’ RF&P cabooses were sold to the Pacific Electric in 1950. I’ve yet to determine their original numbers, but that hasn’t been at the forefront of my research into these cars yet. Any info about them would be welcomed.

All the best,

James

=-=-=

James McDonald
Greenbelt, MD.

Dave Lawler
 

Good day all,
About 25+ years ago The Car Shop produced an etched brass model of these cars in O and HO scales.
Occasionally, one shows up on EBay.
Dave Lawler
Avon Lake, Ohio

Donald B. Valentine
 

John LaRue wrote:

 
Re: USRA Cabooses 
From: mofwcaboose
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 21:26:46 PDT 
The B&M cabooses were second hand from the Lehigh & New England. B&M C-90 - C-92 were from the L&NE series 574 - 578, built by Magor in 1931. B&M cabooses C-93 - C-95 were former L&NE 571 - 573, built by PSC in 1929..


This is all swell sand good, John, but as our late friend Harry A. Frye would also tell you were he still with us the L&HR cabeese that the B&M received boar little or no resemblance to the USRA cabeese.

Cordially, Don Valetine

Virus-free. www.avast.com