Icing in general


Ken Adams
 

I vaguely remember a half ice rate (bunker half filled with ice on cars with half bunker capability) on the tariff when I was coding waybills for protection charges at PFE in the early 1970's.


Tony Thompson
 

Time intervals could be specified under the tariff. I don't know the relative proportion of the various options in actual use.
Tony Thompson 


On Aug 29, 2018, at 10:14 AM, Aley, Jeff A <Jeff.A.Aley@...> wrote:

To add a little bit of detail to Tony’s comment (that the Shipper got to choose), a UP Freight Conductor’s book noted the following different icing instructions for cars in the train (Roseville Fruit, departing Rawlins, WY on 10/13/1938):

 

Standard Ventilation = no ice, hatches open/closed based upon ambient temperatures.

 

Vents Closed to Destination = no ice, hatches closed.

 

Do Not Re-ice = iced initially, but no ice added enroute.

 

Re-Ice at _____ = re-iced only at specific location(s).

 

Standard Refrigeration = re-iced at all regular icing stations.

 

Std. Refrig with 12% salt = re-iced with 12% salt at all regular icing stations

 

One car was noted as having Std. Ventilation to Laramie, then Std. Refrigeration.

 

I notice that quantity of ice is not specified, which is consistent with Tony’s comment that they filled the bunkers.

I also notice that durations (time) are not specified; only locations (regular icing stations or specific icing stations).  Perhaps the duration info was translated into location for the benefit of the conductor.

 

The above data is from a presentation given by Mark Amfahr at the UPHS convention in 2013.

 

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 10:00 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Icing in general

 

    This was decided by the shipper. Normally 24 hours would be selected, but in cool weather a shipper could choose a longer interval (or could specify the icing stations used). In hot weather, they could specify shorter times. They could even choose to let the railroad make sure ice was "sufficient," but railroads hated that because they were then easily the victims of damage claims. I'm sure local agents worked hard to talk shippers out of that option.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 



 


Aley, Jeff A
 

To add a little bit of detail to Tony’s comment (that the Shipper got to choose), a UP Freight Conductor’s book noted the following different icing instructions for cars in the train (Roseville Fruit, departing Rawlins, WY on 10/13/1938):

 

Standard Ventilation = no ice, hatches open/closed based upon ambient temperatures.

 

Vents Closed to Destination = no ice, hatches closed.

 

Do Not Re-ice = iced initially, but no ice added enroute.

 

Re-Ice at _____ = re-iced only at specific location(s).

 

Standard Refrigeration = re-iced at all regular icing stations.

 

Std. Refrig with 12% salt = re-iced with 12% salt at all regular icing stations

 

One car was noted as having Std. Ventilation to Laramie, then Std. Refrigeration.

 

I notice that quantity of ice is not specified, which is consistent with Tony’s comment that they filled the bunkers.

I also notice that durations (time) are not specified; only locations (regular icing stations or specific icing stations).  Perhaps the duration info was translated into location for the benefit of the conductor.

 

The above data is from a presentation given by Mark Amfahr at the UPHS convention in 2013.

 

 

Regards,

 

-Jeff

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 10:00 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Icing in general

 

    This was decided by the shipper. Normally 24 hours would be selected, but in cool weather a shipper could choose a longer interval (or could specify the icing stations used). In hot weather, they could specify shorter times. They could even choose to let the railroad make sure ice was "sufficient," but railroads hated that because they were then easily the victims of damage claims. I'm sure local agents worked hard to talk shippers out of that option.

 

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com

(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...

Publishers of books on railroad history

 

 



 


Benjamin Hom
 

Jim Dick asked:
"Where is Ben Hom to say "Doesn't anybody check the files?"

Sorry...lost interest during the meandering thread on 70-ton trucks that turned into a discussions on stuff that had nothing to do with anything.


Ben Hom





np328
 

   Where is Ben Hom to say "Doesn't anybody check the files?" 

      Re-read the file I had posted in 2015 " Transit Times for produce West Coast to Chicago - New York."  It is REA scanned documents that give a good synopsis.  
https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/Transit%20times%20for%20produce%20West%20Coast%20to%20Chicago%20-%20New%20York 
If nothing else, read the Appendix J. Of the rest, it deals with schedules of 1932 era trains that are arriving so far a head of schedule (fifth morning New York) it was causing problems.   

      I would heartily agree with Tony Thompson's "24 hours" and I will add that on the Northern Pacific, roughly every 500 to 1000 miles however this later mileage listing seems to be to cover contingencies and/or local conditions or harvests. On the NP, 24 hours seemed to be a good rule of thumb also. 
      To expand on that, there is also a document I had uploaded to the files earlier in 2009. "Fruit and Vegetable Transit in PNW - 1934. (no hot link however files page 11) - Open this and note under the UP section, the number of emergency icing stations. The reason I mention this is that (on any railroad) just because there is an icing station should not be taken as every train stopped there. These trains were expedited trains. Richard Hendrickson did a presentation eons ago at the old Sunshine RPM HI site in which reefers moved CA field to NY kitchen table in five days.  
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Jim Dick - St. Paul 


Tony Thompson
 

Time in the sun likely more important than distance. But always remember, shippers chose this. As modelers, average time may or may not be what we need (depending on how meticulous we choose to be).
Tony Thompson 


On Aug 28, 2018, at 2:59 PM, Paul Catapano <pc66ot@...> wrote:

Tony says 24 hours.
I heard 250 miles (roughly).
Figuring average speed of a freight train in 1940 was 11 MPH...
 
Paul Catapano



Paul Catapano
 

Tony says 24 hours.
I heard 250 miles (roughly).
Figuring average speed of a freight train in 1940 was 11 MPH...
 
Paul Catapano



Tony Thompson
 

Clark Propst wrote:

Last night at our Monday Night op session the question of how long would reefers go between icing was brought up. No one had a good answer and meat was confused with produce.

Can someone give the approximate [ballpark] time between icings while a produce car was in transit? Say from coast to coast? How about a meat reefer traveling from the Upper Midwest to the east coast?

    This was decided by the shipper. Normally 24 hours would be selected, but in cool weather a shipper could choose a longer interval (or could specify the icing stations used). In hot weather, they could specify shorter times. They could even choose to let the railroad make sure ice was "sufficient," but railroads hated that because they were then easily the victims of damage claims. I'm sure local agents worked hard to talk shippers out of that option.

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history