Topics

Modeling Those WLE SS cars w/7-ft doors

Bill Welch
 

I have been thinking about how to model one of those WLE Single Sheathed cars with the vertical corrugated ends. Since I model October 1955 it is not a model I will build but I have friends that can use one or more of these. With those rare ends, the 7-foot doors in era of Six and Five-foot doors, and the asymmetrical side panel construction they would make an eye catching model for discerning modelers.

It looks to me like a couple of Accurail offerings could furnish parts for a good start assuming their 4300/4500 eight panel cars and 7000/7200 six-panel cars are the same height. Start by cutting the very fine Hutchins roof from both body styles and save. The left side of the 4300/4500 style body would furnish the four panels needed for the left side of the door while the right side would use the three-panel right side from a 7000/7200 body type. The seven foot wood door can be made easily from Evergreen styrene. About six inches could be cut from the end panel of each side part to permit the seven foot door. The four panel left side has a diagonal brace that will need to be carefully removed and the sheathing re-scribed..

The ends are a challenge but there are resin ends around that replicate the inverted ribs. These might furnish the raw material by turning the parts vertically to make an accurate end. Cutting and fitting back together parts would be necessary I think. One of the harvested Accurail Hutchins roof would be recycled for this kit-bash.

Bill Welch

Eric Hansmann
 

I think the ends need to be designed using CAD software then printed. A good print can be the master for Resin cast parts. A friend had been working on these ends and the slightly different ends for the Pere Marquette automobile boxcar but he’s taken on several other projects since. I need to check in with him for an update. 

Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


On Sep 1, 2018, at 11:07 AM, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

I have been thinking about how to model one of those WLE Single Sheathed cars with the vertical corrugated ends. Since I model October 1955 it is not a model I will build but I have friends that can use one or more of these. With those rare ends, the 7-foot doors in era of Six and Five-foot doors, and the asymmetrical side panel construction they would make an eye catching model for discerning modelers.

It looks to me like a couple of Accurail offerings could furnish parts for a good start assuming their 4300/4500 eight panel cars and 7000/7200 six-panel cars are the same height. Start by cutting the very fine Hutchins roof from both body styles and save. The left side of the 4300/4500 style body would furnish the four panels needed for the left side of the door while the right side would use the three-panel right side from a 7000/7200 body type. The seven foot wood door can be made easily from Evergreen styrene. About six inches could be cut from the end panel of each side part to permit the seven foot door. The four panel left side has a diagonal brace that will need to be carefully removed and the sheathing re-scribed..

The ends are a challenge but there are resin ends around that replicate the inverted ribs. These might furnish the raw material by turning the parts vertically to make an accurate end. Cutting and fitting back together parts would be necessary I think. One of the harvested Accurail Hutchins roof would be recycled for this kit-bash.

Bill Welch

Bill Welch
 

I don't disagree that creating a CAD for making a print. After posting it occurs to me however that a part like the Accurail Murphy end or the Tichy Murphy end could be used to create a metal "negative" using something like Aluminum sheet that would serve a the initial mold to make inset copies that could then be cut apart to make a pattern. Just my two cents.

Bill Welch

Jack Mullen
 

Bill,
Sorry, but if I understand what you suggest, I don't think the sides work out right . The W&LE car seems to have the same width panels on each side of the door, with the door significantly off center. Combining the 6- and 8-panel sides yields a car with centered door and unequal panels.

I've been thinkinf and trying to estimate some dimensions.  It doesn't seem that either donor car will have the right panel width. Figuring around 32' truck centers, the space between bolsters is spanned by 5 panels and a 7' door, making the panels roughly 5' wide, which puts the left edge of the door a foot or so left of the car center.

Seems like a scratch building project, unless it comes out in resin...

Keep thinking out of the box(car).

Jack Mullen

Ray Breyer
 

There is SOME interest in producing a 3D CAD/printed master of these cars to use as a master for a resin kit. Problem is whether or not there's a market for these cars. I personally think that there is: the Wheeling was a fascinating railroad, and has many ardent supporters. And the cars are unusual enough that any pre-1949 modeler can justify having one of them in their fleet.

Aapparently, Al Westerfield looked at these cars decades ago, and had a decent data pile on them. Ultimately he didn't think they'd sell, and scrapped the project.

If and when this project gains any traction, I need to get to central Ohio. As of 2007 there was one on the ground as a shed somewhere.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


On Saturday, September 1, 2018, 6:28:31 PM CDT, Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote:


Bill,
Sorry, but if I understand what you suggest, I don't think the sides work out right . The W&LE car seems to have the same width panels on each side of the door, with the door significantly off center. Combining the 6- and 8-panel sides yields a car with centered door and unequal panels.

I've been thinkinf and trying to estimate some dimensions.  It doesn't seem that either donor car will have the right panel width. Figuring around 32' truck centers, the space between bolsters is spanned by 5 panels and a 7' door, making the panels roughly 5' wide, which puts the left edge of the door a foot or so left of the car center.

Seems like a scratch building project, unless it comes out in resin...

Keep thinking out of the box(car).

Jack Mullen

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 03:23 PM, Bill Welch wrote:
After posting it occurs to me however that a part like the Accurail Murphy end or the Tichy Murphy end could be used to create a metal "negative" using something like Aluminum sheet that would serve a the initial mold to make inset copies that could then be cut apart to make a pattern.
The problem with that, Bill, is the corrugations aren't the same size. On the Murphy ends with horizontal corrugations, the corrugations are on six inch centers. Looking at the photo of the end of the W&LE car published in the 1922 CBC, there are only twelve across the width of the car, leading me to guesstimate they are on nine inch centers. Has anyone ever seen a dimensioned drawing for one of these? I used to know where there was an extant example in a junk yard, but that was forty years ago and I suspect it is long gone.

Dennis Storzek

Bill Welch
 

Looking again in light of Jack's comment I see now the right and left panels are the same width and I see Dennis' point as well regarding the end corrugations, but maybe raising the point has produced some interest in exploring a resin kit. To Ray's point if a SS car fits my time period I buy it because boxcars went everywhere unless they were somehow restricted. I think most modelers love SS cars but the fact these cars were relatively short lived might limit their sales.

Bill Welch

Eric Hansmann
 

Short lived? Many of these cars had at least a 28 year service life.

Built in 1921 and used by the Wheeling at least to the 1949 NKP merger. I don't have an early 1950 ORER but there may be a few of these W&LE 27000-27999 series cars listed under the NKP but still using WLE reporting marks. I would doubt their revenue lives lasted beyond the K brake ban. As one person has noted, some of these cars continued on in NKP MoW service. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

 

On September 2, 2018 at 5:41 AM Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Looking again in light of Jack's comment I see now the right and left panels are the same width and I see Dennis' point as well regarding the end corrugations, but maybe raising the point has produced some interest in exploring a resin kit. To Ray's point if a SS car fits my time period I buy it because boxcars went everywhere unless they were somehow restricted. I think most modelers love SS cars but the fact these cars were relatively short lived might limit their sales.

Bill Welch



Ray Breyer
 

>>Has anyone ever seen a dimensioned drawing for one of these? I used to know where there was an extant 
>>example in a junk yard, but that was forty years ago and I suspect it is long gone.
>>Dennis Storzek


In 2004 a friend found one of these cars in a field in Warren Ohio and sent me a few photos. Judging by this 2018 photo from Google Earth, it may still be there.

I've never seen drawings, but Al Westerfield may have dug them up at one time when he was researching the cars. Eric and I have dug up enough good photos of the cars that they may not be necessary; I've got enough material on them now for an old-fashioned scratchbuild.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL
 
_._,_._,_




Ray Breyer
 

>>Short lived? Many of these cars had at least a 28 year service life.
>>Built in 1921 and used by the Wheeling at least to the 1949 NKP merger. I don't have an early 1950 ORER 
>>but there may be a few of these W&LE 27000-27999 series cars listed under the NKP but still using WLE 
>>reporting marks. I would doubt their revenue lives lasted beyond the K brake ban. As one person has noted, 
>>some of these cars continued on in NKP MoW service. 
>>Eric Hansmann


There were still 982 of these cars in the 1945 ORER, but they got scrapped em masse right after the war ended. By 1950 and the NKP takeover there were only 44 left in service. None ever got repainted for NKP revenue use, and the group was down to 22 cars in 1951, and only two cars in 1955. All were gone by 1959, and I suspect that they were actually gone by the beginning of 1956. At least 25 made it to NKP MOW service, and those cars survived into the mid-1960s on the N&W.

Ray Breyer
Elgin, IL


 

Bill Welch
 

Seems to me these cars fall into the sweet spot for many modelers time wise in revenue service.

Bill Welch

Eric Hansmann
 

I found one in a B&O Brunswick yard photo, circa 1922-23. The ends aren’t visible but the car side and door stand out among the other boxcars. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Sep 2, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Seems to me these cars fall into the sweet spot for many modelers time wise in revenue service.

Bill Welch

Schleigh Mike
 

The message below from Bill Welch is the oldest  I find on this subject.  Was a photo posted that initiated this discussion?  If so, where please.

Regards from Mike Schleigh normally in Grove City, Penna.


On Saturday, September 1, 2018, 12:07:44 PM EDT, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:


I have been thinking about how to model one of those WLE Single Sheathed cars with the vertical corrugated ends. Since I model October 1955 it is not a model I will build but I have friends that can use one or more of these. With those rare ends, the 7-foot doors in era of Six and Five-foot doors, and the asymmetrical side panel construction they would make an eye catching model for discerning modelers.

It looks to me like a couple of Accurail offerings could furnish parts for a good start assuming their 4300/4500 eight panel cars and 7000/7200 six-panel cars are the same height. Start by cutting the very fine Hutchins roof from both body styles and save. The left side of the 4300/4500 style body would furnish the four panels needed for the left side of the door while the right side would use the three-panel right side from a 7000/7200 body type. The seven foot wood door can be made easily from Evergreen styrene. About six inches could be cut from the end panel of each side part to permit the seven foot door. The four panel left side has a diagonal brace that will need to be carefully removed and the sheathing re-scribed..

The ends are a challenge but there are resin ends around that replicate the inverted ribs. These might furnish the raw material by turning the parts vertically to make an accurate end. Cutting and fitting back together parts would be necessary I think. One of the harvested Accurail Hutchins roof would be recycled for this kit-bash.

Bill Welch

Chris Ellis
 

Here's a couple more photos of this W&LE boxcar from the Cleveland State University Archives.

In the mill photo the end of the car is peeking out from behind a building, the Soo Line boxcar is neat however. 
 
Chris Ellis
Akron, OH
adenarailroad.blogspot.com

Bill Welch
 

Schleigh Mike
 

Thanks, Bill----Big help----Mike


On Sunday, September 2, 2018, 12:01:07 PM EDT, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:


Eric Hansmann
 

Mike,

Click on the link for "New Lead Stark Brick" on this page.

http://hansmanns.org/finds


I posted a direct link to this W&LE boxcar image before but the photo became embedded in the message. You also night find the W&LE gondola images interesting.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN




On September 2, 2018 at 9:29 AM "Schleigh Mike via Groups.Io" <mike_schleigh@...> wrote:

The message below from Bill Welch is the oldest  I find on this subject.  Was a photo posted that initiated this discussion?  If so, where please.

Regards from Mike Schleigh normally in Grove City, Penna.


On Saturday, September 1, 2018, 12:07:44 PM EDT, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:


I have been thinking about how to model one of those WLE Single Sheathed cars with the vertical corrugated ends. Since I model October 1955 it is not a model I will build but I have friends that can use one or more of these. With those rare ends, the 7-foot doors in era of Six and Five-foot doors, and the asymmetrical side panel construction they would make an eye catching model for discerning modelers.

It looks to me like a couple of Accurail offerings could furnish parts for a good start assuming their 4300/4500 eight panel cars and 7000/7200 six-panel cars are the same height. Start by cutting the very fine Hutchins roof from both body styles and save. The left side of the 4300/4500 style body would furnish the four panels needed for the left side of the door while the right side would use the three-panel right side from a 7000/7200 body type. The seven foot wood door can be made easily from Evergreen styrene. About six inches could be cut from the end panel of each side part to permit the seven foot door. The four panel left side has a diagonal brace that will need to be carefully removed and the sheathing re-scribed..

The ends are a challenge but there are resin ends around that replicate the inverted ribs. These might furnish the raw material by turning the parts vertically to make an accurate end. Cutting and fitting back together parts would be necessary I think. One of the harvested Accurail Hutchins roof would be recycled for this kit-bash.

Bill Welch


 


 



Robert kirkham
 

How different were they from the PM cars?  Those have been on my long term list of possible projects, ever sense I found a bunch of wreck photos of them.

 

If anyone has the outline dimensions of the ends, it is a simple matter to draw and print them.  But I find such projects stall without a key outline dimension to work from.

 

Rob Kirkham

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Eric Hansmann
Sent: Sunday, September 2, 2018 8:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Modeling Those WLE SS cars w/7-ft doors

 

I found one in a B&O Brunswick yard photo, circa 1922-23. The ends aren’t visible but the car side and door stand out among the other boxcars. 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN


On Sep 2, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Bill Welch <fgexbill@...> wrote:

Seems to me these cars fall into the sweet spot for many modelers time wise in revenue service.

Bill Welch

Eric Hansmann
 

Attached are two images from the 1922 Car Builder Cyc to compare the PM and W&LE vertical corrugated steel ends. Note the PM car ends have more corrugations and it seems like these are regular corrugations (outies). The W&LE car ends seem to be an inverse corrugation. I've tweaked both images in Photoshop to clarify some detail.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN



On September 2, 2018 at 10:55 AM Robert kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

How different were they from the PM cars?  Those have been on my long term list of possible projects, ever sense I found a bunch of wreck photos of them.

 

If anyone has the outline dimensions of the ends, it is a simple matter to draw and print them.  But I find such projects stall without a key outline dimension to work from.

 

Rob Kirkham

 

Bill Welch
 

. . .and the Accurail AAR gon and Detail Assoc's ends make this an easy kitbash. Gone by my modeling period however

Bill Welch