NYRB Ventilated cars mysteries
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Peter Ness
This isn’t terribly important, but it is a mystery to me, anyway;
While gathering information on ERDX 10000-10099 and ERDX 110000-11049 (or 11000-11099 depending where you look…) cars between the Canadian Southern website (wonderful site!) and my January 1959 ORER, I stumbled across NYRB 2500-2599 in the ORER that is not listed on the CS website.
Curiously (to me) there was also a listing of NYRX 2500-2599 both in the ORER and on the website. Now, the mystery (to me) is because both NYRX 2500-2599 and NYRB 2500-2599 have the same dimensions as the ERDX 11000-11099 cars; in the ORER the ERDX and NYRB cars are both listed as Ventilated, while the NYRX cars are listed as Refrigerated.
So, one mystery (to me) is if the NYRB cars were ever built? Another mystery; if there were only 50 ERDX 110000-11099 cars rebuilt from Lot 734-B box cars in 1958, and 50 NYRX 2500-2599 cars were also built from Lot 734-B box cars, from what were the NYRB cars built (since they have the same dimensions)?
A couple of questions: Does anyone know what trucks were applied to the ERDX 10000-10099 cars built in 1953 and the ERDX 11000-11049 cars built in 1958? How were cars without roof hatches ventilated? I have not seen any photos of the NYRX cars, but in 1958 I’m assuming they were mechanical refrigerators without hatches….
For information, all of this was driven because I have a couple of ERDX cars made by 5th Avenue Shops (IIRC) sometime in the last millennium. I sort of put these cars aside a while back because someone told me; “Yes, they are nice cars but the prototypes were 50’ cars”…and I never checked until now. So there may be problems with roof, ends, sides, brake gear and trucks, but knowing the length is close to correct is a start down the path of redemption for the cars.
Thanks for any and all help on the NYRX and NYRB questions, and truck info for the ERDX cars.
Peter Ness
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Seth Lakin
Peter, the NYRB 2500-2599 are the same cars as the NYRX 2500-2599 cars. If you look closely at this photos of the NYRX cars, you can see the the B was repainted or stickered as a X.
Both the ERDX 11000-11049 and NYRB 2500-2599 were converted from NYC lot 743-B boxcars. Under MDT-NRL specification 244. These were converted by DSI under construction lot 936 (different from NYC Lot 936). The ERDX cars were for Eastern States Farmers while the NYRB cars were for NYC general service. All were insulated cars, no ice bunkers, no mechanical refrigeration. There is a small almost inspection sliding door on the B end between ribs just to the right of the centerline between the brake step and brake wheel. I don’t know if this qualifies for ventilation or not, as it’s not on the A end of the car. There are drawings of these cars in the files of the NYCSHS. I don’t have them saved to my ERDX-NYRB file. I will have to go look for them. Seth Lakin Michigan City IN NYCSHS Modelers Committee
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> I have not seen any photos of the NYRX cars, but in 1958 I'm assuming they were > mechanical refrigerators without hatches > Peter Ness Seth Lakin replied - NYRB 2500-2599 are the same cars as the NYRX 2500-2599 cars. Both the ERDX 11000-11049 and NYRB 2500-2599 were converted from NYC lot 743-B boxcars. Under MDT-NRL specification 244. These were converted by DSI under construction lot 936 (different from NYC Lot 936). ----------------- If Seth is correct that NYRX 2528 was from lot 743-B (DSI 1945) then they must have replaced the ENDS too, because this car (photo attached) has 5-5 Dreadnaught ends, while the 743-B box cars all had postwar dreadnaught ends with a 4/4 rib pattern. I've always assumed these NYRX "Early Bird" box cars were rebuilt from 1940 AAR design box cars - 734-B or 735-B. These NYRX 2500-2599 cars were the only other NYC freight cars to receive the Early Bird logo. Champ produced decal sets for these cars (HR-57 and later SHS-257) but Greg Komar produced a much improved set, KOMAR #83. Tim O'Connor -- Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Seth Lakin
My mistake Tim, I guess it was fat fingers on a small iPhone keypad. The ERDX11000-11049 and NRRB/NYRX 2500-2599 cars were rebuilt from lot 734-B boxes not the 743-B that I had posted earlier.
Seth Lakin Michigan City IN
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Peter Ness
Tim, Seth,
Thanks very much for the information. My source on info for the NYRX and EDRX rebuilds from Lot 734B is the database on the Canadian Southern website.
Looking at the photo of NYC 179000 on the website in comparison with NYRX 2528, I guess I’m thinking that since the side sills are different and the 8’W sliding plug door was slapped on the side, I guess I can think the ends, and perhaps running boards were changes, too, maybe? After all, if these were insulated cars, they had to take something apart to make the construction insulated?
Nothing like a good mystery!
Attached is a snippet from the January 1959 ORER showing both NYRB and NYRX cars and the drawing from the Canadian Southern website for both ERDX 110000-series and NYRX2500-series.
Peter Ness
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 6:58 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NYRB Ventilated cars mysteries
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?? Peter, I don't know what that web site says, but NYC 179000 was an 832-B not a 734-B. Did you mean to type 159000? That was the original series for lot 734-B. The "snippet" you included shows that NYRX is the more recent change to the ORER. I'm guessing those NYRB reporting marks didn't last long - I have never seen a photo of a car with NYRB reporting marks, while I have a dozen photos of NYRX cars. In any case the NYRX rebuilds of 734-B cars retained the RP flush roofs and 5/5 ends, while receiving wider 8 foot door openings (actual plug door width wider, maybe 8'3") and a reinforced side sill. These rebuilds lasted into the 1970's. Tim O'Connor ============================
Thanks very much for the information. My source on info for the NYRX and EDRX rebuilds from Lot 734B is the database on the Canadian Southern website. --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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I forgot to include this photo of a 734-B. It has been repainted, and with door gussets,
but otherwise as built. Tim -- *Tim O'Connor* *Sterling, Massachusetts*
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Seth probably has the same data I have in my NYC freight car directories. The ERDX and the NYRX/NYRB cars were converted from box cars in Lot 734-B(NYC 159000-159999) in 1958 by Despatch Shops, Inc., on DSI Lot 936. Cars had 5/5 ends, 8' sliding plug doors and 3323 cu.ft. They were all designated "RB". The oldest cars in the Spec. 936 series were IHB 10600-10999(NYC Lot 730-B). The other cars, all NYC: 735-B 161000-161999; 743-B 162000-163999; 759-B 164000-164999; 763-B 165000-165999; 764-B 166000-166999. Beginning with Lot 743-B 4//4 early improved Dreadnaught ends were applied. Cars had 10-panel sides, Gypsum running boards, Murphy panel roofs, sides and ends painted red, roof painted black.
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Peter Ness
Tim,
Fat fingering is contagious! Correct, that would be NYC 159000 L
Peter Ness
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 8:36 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NYRB Ventilated cars mysteries
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Peter Ness
Tim,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Thanks for the photo. Came across this on photobucket http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/dti406/media/bWVkaWFJZDo3ODIyMzk2Nw==/?r ef= and described on the Atlas Forum as a Branchline 40' Kit with 8' Door, substituted an 8' Front Range Door from the scrap box. Painted with Scalecoat II Reefer Yellow and Boxcar Red, and lettered with Greg Komar Decals Read more: http://atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/1644/sunday-photo-september-201 3-fall#ixzz5RKNdDuLY (scroll down) Peter Ness
-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 8:44 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NYRB Ventilated cars mysteries I forgot to include this photo of a 734-B. It has been repainted, and with door gussets, but otherwise as built. Tim -- *Tim O'Connor* *Sterling, Massachusetts*
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Peter Ness
Thanks for the additional information, Hugh. Peter Ness
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Hugh Guillaume via Groups.Io
Seth probably has the same data I have in my NYC freight car directories. The ERDX and the NYRX/NYRB cars were converted from box cars in Lot 734-B(NYC 159000-159999) in 1958 by Despatch Shops, Inc., on DSI Lot 936. Cars had 5/5 ends, 8' sliding plug doors and 3323 cu.ft. They were all designated "RB". The oldest cars in the Spec. 936 series were IHB 10600-10999(NYC Lot 730-B). The other cars, all NYC: 735-B 161000-161999; 743-B 162000-163999; 759-B 164000-164999; 763-B 165000-165999; 764-B 166000-166999. Beginning with Lot 743-B 4//4 early improved Dreadnaught ends were applied. Cars had 10-panel sides, Gypsum running boards, Murphy panel roofs, sides and ends painted red, roof painted black.
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mopacfirst
Looking closely at the NYRX photo, the new sidesill isn't end to end, but rather begins and ends at the sill step skirting. In other words, there is a noticeable difference in width where the sill steps are, compared to the remainder of the new sill edge. The prototype modification must have been a bit complicated, involving the cutting out of the sill tabs that were at the ends of the crossbearers, but from a model standpoint this is probably easier than a complete sidesill replacement.
Ron Merrick
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Dennis Storzek
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 07:25 AM, mopacfirst wrote:
The prototype modification must have been a bit complicated, involving the cutting out of the sill tabs that were at the ends of the crossbearers, but from a model standpoint this is probably easier than a complete sidesill replacement.That is actually what is referred to as a side sill reinforcement, and was a common modification to AAR standard cars. The actual side sill is a large heavy section angle, which remains undisturbed. The side sill "tabs" are short lengths of channel or angle (I forget which) which simply make the connection between the crossbearers and cross ties and the sill above them. They are simply riveted to the bottom flange of the sill, and are easy to remove. The CB and CT ends are then just riveted to the larger length of channel that replaces them. As to insulating the car, the insulation goes between the steel sides and the wood lining. No steel work need be done; the old grain lining is stripped out, insulation added, and a new lining applied. In addition, a new lining is needed under the roof to hold the roof insulation. ZU eaves were preferred on newly built insulated cars, because all the roof fasteners are external, and a roof can be repaired while the car is under load. It wasn't mandatory, however, and some RB's had the normal roof panels applied to Z bar eaves. The trade off was the car had to be unloaded and the ceiling opened up to repair a damaged roof. Dennis Storzek
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Schleigh Mike
Hello Hugh! Please contact me off-line [mike_schleigh@...] 9724-458-7405). I am not getting through with addresses I have for you. Thanks--Mike Schleigh
On Sunday, September 16, 2018, 10:48:13 PM EDT, Hugh Guillaume via Groups.Io <mguill1224@...> wrote:
Seth probably has the same data I have in my NYC freight car directories. The ERDX and the NYRX/NYRB cars were converted from box cars in Lot 734-B(NYC 159000-159999) in 1958 by Despatch Shops, Inc., on DSI Lot 936. Cars had 5/5 ends, 8' sliding plug doors and 3323 cu.ft. They were all designated "RB". The oldest cars in the Spec. 936 series were IHB 10600-10999(NYC Lot 730-B). The other cars, all NYC: 735-B 161000-161999; 743-B 162000-163999; 759-B 164000-164999; 763-B 165000-165999; 764-B 166000-166999. Beginning with Lot 743-B 4//4 early improved Dreadnaught ends were applied. Cars had 10-panel sides, Gypsum running boards, Murphy panel roofs, sides and ends painted red, roof painted black.
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Seeing this drawing reminds me of a question I would like to have answered: What is the preferred measurement for expressing the length of a freight car, over the end plates or over the end sills?
Thanks. Bob Chaparro Hemet, CA
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These cars (NYRX) are on my modeling bucket list... The Intermountain 1940
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AAR box car kit IMO is the place to start. The only change I might make is to use the Red Caboose roof instead of IRC's awful version. Tim O'Connor
Tim, --
*Tim O'Connor* *Sterling, Massachusetts*
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Roger Hinman clears it up in his book. As I suspected, the NYRB reporting mark was illegal and was only seen during 1958 while the cars could be found and relettered with the proper NYRX reporting marks. Pullman Standard built more of NYRX RB reefers in 1960, sans the "Early Bird" emblem. Tim O'
Seth probably has the same data I have in my NYC freight car directories. The ERDX and the NYRX/NYRB cars were converted from box cars in Lot 734-B(NYC 159000-159999) in 1958 by Despatch Shops, Inc., on DSI Lot 936. Cars had 5/5 ends, 8' sliding plug doors and 3323 cu.ft. They were all designated "RB". The oldest cars in the Spec. 936 series were IHB 10600-10999(NYC Lot 730-B). The other cars, all NYC: 735-B 161000-161999; 743-B 162000-163999; 759-B 164000-164999; 763-B 165000-165999; 764-B 166000-166999. Beginning with Lot 743-B 4//4 early improved Dreadnaught ends were applied. Cars had 10-panel sides, Gypsum running boards, Murphy panel roofs, sides and ends painted red, roof painted black. --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Peter Ness
For once modeling 1959 has a bonus; another reefer to add and early bird! Since I model South Station in Boston where Pacemaker box cars and MDT reefers were known to congregate on the former B&A tracks near the REA Building, I can add another car to my list!
Peter Ness
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 1:32 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NYRB Ventilated cars mysteries
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rwitt_2000
Dennis Storzek wrote "ZU eaves were preferred on newly built insulated cars, because all the roof fasteners are external, and a roof can be repaired while the car is under load. It wasn't mandatory, however, and some RB's had the normal roof panels applied to Z bar eaves. The trade off was the car had to be unloaded and the ceiling opened up to repair a damaged roof."
Dennis your comment is the first time I recall reading why there maybe a preference for "ZU" eaves. The B&O started using "ZU" eaves on box cars, non-insulated, with the kits ordered from ACF and P-S for their class M-66 and M-67, respectively. Thanks, Bob Witt
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