Weighing Freight Car Models with Liquid Gravity
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gtws00
I found a product called Liquid Gravity from Deluxe Materials from the UK the other day in a catalog a friend gave me. Although it is apparently not new has anyone every used it to weight flat cars or gondolas. It appears to be very small pellets of non toxic material that is pour able and fixed in place with CA glue. Looks to be available on Amazon as well
Below is a link to the product and a video on its use. https://www.deluxematerials.co.uk/en/rc-modelling/83-liquid-gravity-5060243900470.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtfsWZ7LnvU George Toman
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George,
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It is much cheaper to buy S-280 steel shot media, which is what I think that this stuff is. I got 10 lbs for about $30. For another $1 I got a plastic dispenser bottle… just make sure to make the opening big enough. I glue it in place with ACC.
Regards Bruce
Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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George/all,
First - I, for myself, would not put too much of a requirement on "non-toxic". Second - I would use white glue (or Krystal Klear) as the adhesive to hold it in place. Yes, it takes a long time to dry (24 hours or more some times) ... so what? It is a lot cheaper and it holds irregular shapes much better than -any- form of CA. Third - I have a "life time supply" of bird shot (lead) that I am using and it works quite well. So this product should work fine. I would want to weigh identical -volume- quantities of both to see if the difference in the amount of weight is important. At least one huge advantage of this method ("shot" no matter what material) is that it allows you to "tuck the weight into lots of very small places very easily". My experience is that I can also use small rectangles of sheet lead to do pretty much the same thing - without sacrificing any meaningful amount of weight for the completed car. When using sheet lead I still use KK/white glue to hold it in place. If you thin out some white glue it will flow into the smaller spaces easily. The trick is to not get it so thin that it truly "flows" ... think slow ooze and you have the idea. I even thin out KK - some times - if it isn't getting down in and around where I need it to get. At least one distinct advantage to using KK/white glue is that it will form a coating that goes up and over the top of the weight - which drastically decreases the chance of any of the weight falling out. I apply it so that some of it is on top of the weight and the rest flows into the cracks/spaces around the weight. When applying to the bottom of a car I make sure all of the weight has a clear coating of the glue - and it doesn't ever fall out. - Jim B.
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Dave Parker
There was a lengthy discussion of this (overpriced) product in June of last year. See message 149984 and all that follows it. Dave Parker
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Unfortunately it’s highly magnetic. It seems it’s ground cast iron or steel. As with all magnetcic materials that’s detrimental to the use of magnetic couplers like Kadee.
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The large undertie Kadee magnets will "pull” such a weighted car from a couple inches away causing unwanted uncouplings. Where the magnetic property is not important it’s a useful product. Dan Mitchell ==========
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Randy Hammill
I wonder if that's tungsten shot. I've been trying to find a source for the smallest size shot in bulk, rather than buying shotgun shells and emptying them. This definitely looks like the stuff.
You can get it at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/DELUXE-MATERIALS-Liquid-Gravity-Weight/dp/B0047YORDQ Randy -- — Randy Hammill Modeling the New Haven Railroad 1946-1954 | https//:blog.newbritainstation.com
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Dave Parker
It is NOT tungsten. Please reread last year's conversation as I suggested.
Dave Parker Riverside, CA
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Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
Randy, Why buy shotgun shells to empty the shot out of for car weights? I suggest that it is much cheaper to find a sports shop that sells reloading supplies and simply buy a back of lead shot, or steel if you prefer, The larger the number the smaller the shot size. I suspect you could find all the shot you could use, either lead or steel from #7 /12 to #12 for around $35 for 10 lbs. I have lead shot for reloading purposes but prefer sheet lead for additional weight on HO scale models. Some building supply firms still offer sheet lead for flashing work if you need a source. I have all I'll ever need already. Cordially, Don Valentine.
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Randy/all,
We keep hearing guys talk about tungsten ... it doesn't "work" for me. Although tungsten does have a higher specific gravity than lead/steel ... it is not enough more to make a difference in terms of how much weight you can actually add to your model trains. We don't use enough volume of weight to make a difference. Tungsten is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to cut/shape/size. Yes, it can be cut/machined - but I haven't met anyone in the hobby with the equipment to do so. I've never seen "tungsten shot". To my way of thinking the only advantage to tungsten is that it isn't magnetic. Neither is lead ... I use lead shot and sheet lead. I don't eat it. I wash my hands with simple soap and water after I handle it. I 'encase' it in KK/white glue so I don't worry about it after it is installed. - Jim B.
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Jeff
On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 9:12 AM Jim Betz <jimbetz@jimbetz.com> wrote:
<snip> Have you heard of Tungsten powder? https://www.amazon.com/Dynacraft-Tungsten-Powder-Jar-8-Ounce/dp/B00LU0W5CA/ref=sr_1_1 Or Tungsten putty? https://www.amazon.com/PineSpeed-Tungsten-Pinewood-Fishing-Accessory/dp/B01DTOPDPA Granted... it ain't cheap. -- Jeff Shultz http://www.shultzinfosystems.com A railfan approaches a grade crossing hoping that there will be a train.
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It isn't but I think tungsten shot is available for those really hard to weight problems (like Detail Associates gondolas) - that's what you want to use. In general Deluxe Materials has some really interesting and useful products. They had a big display this past January at the Springfield show in Massachusetts. For glue I wouldn't use CA for the shot - I'd use Elmer's "China and Glass Cement" which is thin as water and dries rock hard in just a few minutes. Tim O'
I wonder if that's tungsten shot. I've been trying to find a source for the smallest size shot in bulk, rather than buying shotgun shells and emptying them. This definitely looks like the stuff. --
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Peter Ness
Hi Randy,
If you really, really have to have Tungsten, our friends at Alumilite sell it in powder form by the ½ lb for USD20 https://www.alumilite.com/store/p/959-Tungsten-5lbs.aspx
I did not locate any reliable suppliers of Tungsten shot (several China or India on-line suppliers (They may be reliable but the product data was sparse enough to make me suspicious)
A couple of things to consider: Be sure you are getting Tungsten; Tungsten Carbide has a lower specific gravity than Tungsten – about halfway betwixt Lead and Tungsten. Specific gravity of Tungsten Oxide is about half that of Lead. Tungsten is identified as a Conflict Mineral because of smelters located in or around the Democratic Republic of Congo that may be engaged in activities generally considered unsavory ranging from slave labor to human trafficking to arms smuggling. At least a couple of smelters are connected to Russian citizens who are sanctioned by the US Government, hence the smelters are sanctioned as well. Rest assured, all compliance requirements are on the purveyor of the Tungsten – none apply to the purchaser. Although if you purchase commercially and are registered with the SEC you are obligated to audit you Suppliers who are required to provide the smelters engaged in their supply chain, and if a red flag smelter is reported you are obligated to conduct due diligence with that Supplier or change Suppliers.
If I was going to consider the use of Tungsten powder/shot for adding weight, I would most likely fill the bulk of the void with Lead shot and use the Tungsten powder – perhaps mixed with the glue – to fill the spaces and cavities not filled by the shot. My thinking is that if the Lead shot is not quite enough to hit the desired weight target, adding some Tungsten powder may do the trick.
Something else just occurred to me; from scale aircraft modeling years back I bought a tube of Plumbers Epoxy. Back then it only came in the copper-filled variety but is now available in steel and perhaps other types. I used it to add to add to the nose of front landing gear aircraft so they would not be “tail-sitters”. It is easy to work with (cut a slice from the roll –it’s pre-mixed – knead to activate and shape, then apply. Maybe there is a possibility of application to center sills in freight car modeling? Get out your Lead shot, knead the epoxy in a long string, roll it to add the Lead shot (add Tungsten powder to taste if desired) and stuff it in the center sill? The epoxy weighs far more than glue or ACC and the shot will not escape – ever! Who knows, maybe I’ll try this on a flat car center still sometime and let you know what happens.
Peter Ness
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Randy Hammill
I wonder if that's tungsten shot. I've been trying to find a source for the smallest size shot in bulk, rather than buying shotgun shells and emptying them. This definitely looks like the stuff.
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Peter Ness
Hi Jeff,
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Thais for the reminder of pine wood derby supplies! Randy, there are your small Tungsten slugs (not shot, unfortunately). I did not know about Tungsten Putty! Good to know! Peter Ness
-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jeff Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 12:23 PM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Weighing Freight Car Models with Liquid Gravity On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 9:12 AM Jim Betz <jimbetz@jimbetz.com> wrote: <snip> Have you heard of Tungsten powder? https://www.amazon.com/Dynacraft-Tungsten-Powder-Jar-8-Ounce/dp/B00LU0W5CA/ref=sr_1_1 Or Tungsten putty? https://www.amazon.com/PineSpeed-Tungsten-Pinewood-Fishing-Accessory/dp/B01DTOPDPA Granted... it ain't cheap. -- Jeff Shultz http://www.shultzinfosystems.com A railfan approaches a grade crossing hoping that there will be a train.
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Allen Cain
A great source for lead shot and plate is RotoMetals either direct from their site or thru Amazon:
https://www.rotometals.com/lead-shot/
https://www.rotometals.com/lead-sheet/sheet-lead-1-64-1-lbs-sq-ft/
One order should last a life time.
Allen Cainhttps://www.rotometals.com/lead-sheet/sheet-lead-1-64-1-lbs-sq-ft/
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Tungsten is roughly half-again as heavy as lead … that’s significant.
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In solid metalic form is is devilisly hard to work with … worse than titanium. It mostly has to be machined by grinding. But in granulated or powder form it would be useable similar to “liquid gravity” ... hold in palce with a liquid glue. Dan Mitchell ==========
On Oct 29, 2018, at 12:23 PM, Jeff <jeffshultz@gmail.com> wrote:
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Jake Schaible
There is a commercially available Tungsten alloy shot, formed to have similar density as lead... without the lead.... for lead free states. Hevi-Shot Tungsten Alloy Shot 3 lb Also http://www.globaltungstens.com/tungsten-alloy/tungsten-shot.php Pure W isn't all that hard. Even with the harder alloys, there are specialist shops that work with it 90WNiFe alloy and can mill and cut that fine. In fact, for extremely small dia wire, W is often the cheapest you can get per meter, as it pulls very fine without breaking. (For $170, you can get 0.0005" electropolished wire in 500m spools) https://midwesttungsten.com/tungsten-wire-99-95-pure-0-003-diameters-500-meter-spool/
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Dan/all,
If you have enough space for 1 oz of tungsten or titanium you will almost always have enough room for 1 oz of lead ... think about it. How much weight do we -add- to a freight car? Two to 3 oz. TOPS. Usually 1 to 1.5 ounces. I'm saying there is always room for enough lead. There's probably enough room for enough copper/brass! I know some guys who use pennies for car weights in their box cars - they say it is cheaper per oz than anything else. ;-) And it doesn't really matter what scale you are in - although adding weight is probably physically harder in N-scale simply due to smaller spaces (but you are adding less weight). - Jim B.
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While tungsten is more expensive than lead, and may be harder to work with, it is definitely heavier for any given volume … nearly twice as heavy. I thus disagree with you that "If you have enough space for 1 oz of tungsten or titanium you will almost always have enough room for 1 oz of lead”. Just NOT true. You need only a bit more than half the volume of available space if you use tungsten. That’s often critical when trying to weight a flatcar or other "problem” rolling stock.
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And, as for titanium … it’s relatively light and not at all suited as a weight. I mentioned it only as another difficult-to-machine metal. Both titanium and tungsten CAN be machined, but not with the tools usually available in home shops. For most, to use tungsten you need to buy it in a useable form. Dan Mitchell ==========
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Andy Carlson
I would guess the mention of Titanium was a mistake, the intended metal perhaps Platinum, which is as heavy (Or heavier) than Tungsten. Platinum, though, is incredably expensive, though its weigh rivals Tungsten and depleted Uranium. Go with Tungsten, or at least Tungsten Carbide. Titanium is a very light weight metal, which though useful for Nascar race engine valves, would be much lighter than steel for our need of a weight. I bought a Russia surplus Titanium crow bar once. It was about half the weight of a steel rebar, and I made the joke that a titanium Russian crowbar was the USSR emergency release mechanism for a Russian fighter jet. -Andy
From: Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Weighing Freight Car Models with Liquid Gravity While tungsten is more expensive than lead, and may be harder to work with, it is definitely heavier for any given volume … nearly twice as heavy. I thus disagree with you that "If you have enough space for 1 oz of tungsten or titanium you will almost always have enough room for 1 oz of lead”. Just NOT true. You need only a bit more than half the volume of available space if you use tungsten. That’s often critical when trying to weight a flatcar or other "problem” rolling stock. And, as for titanium … it’s relatively light and not at all suited as a weight. I mentioned it only as another difficult-to-machine metal. Both titanium and tungsten CAN be machined, but not with the tools usually available in home shops. For most, to use tungsten you need to buy it in a useable form. Dan Mitchell ==========
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Peter Ness
Jake wrote: “W is often the cheapest you can get per meter, as it pulls very fine without breaking. (For $170, you can get 0.0005" electropolished wire in 500m spools) ”
Which is true, but try putting a 90° bend in it and it will become apparent it is very brittle unless doped with other elements in alloy form. Tungsten wire splits during attempts to form it. Doped with rare-earth oxides such as Lanthanum oxide allow easier forming such as to make coils for various lighting products.
Again, always know what you want if for and what it’s made of.
On the Hevi-Shot page the description reads; “Hevi-Shot is a non-toxic shot comprised of tungsten alloy, nickel, and iron that is similar in density to lead”. So it may be only USD80, but what does it cost for 3 lbs. of Lead?
Peter Ness
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jake Schaible
There is a commercially available Tungsten alloy shot, formed to have similar density as lead... without the lead.... for lead free states. Hevi-Shot Tungsten Alloy Shot 3 lb Also http://www.globaltungstens.com/tungsten-alloy/tungsten-shot.php Pure W isn't all that hard. Even with the harder alloys, there are specialist shops that work with it 90WNiFe alloy and can mill and cut that fine. In fact, for extremely small dia wire, W is often the cheapest you can get per meter, as it pulls very fine without breaking. (For $170, you can get 0.0005" electropolished wire in 500m spools) https://midwesttungsten.com/tungsten-wire-99-95-pure-0-003-diameters-500-meter-spool/
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