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Linkage repair on a brass locomotive

Bryian Sones
 

Hi All,

I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?

Thanks,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
Todd Horton
 

Brian, Can you post a picture of what broke?  
 
Todd Horton


From: Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
To: STMFC <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:04 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive

Hi All,

I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?

Thanks,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
Bryian Sones
 

Hi Tony,

Sorry unable to post a pic at the moment but possibly later. The side rod linkage that is broken attaches to the Eccentric; The locomotive is a Ho scale,  Key Imports early Challenger
If that helps any? I'll try and post a pick later.

Thanks,
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:36 PM, Todd Horton via Groups.Io <toddchorton@...> wrote:


Brian, Can you post a picture of what broke?  
 
Todd Horton


From: Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
To: STMFC <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:04 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive

Hi All,

I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?

Thanks,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
Bryian Sones
 

Sorry I meant that for Todd Horton not Tony.

Kind Regards
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 6:01 PM, Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...> wrote:


Hi Tony,

Sorry unable to post a pic at the moment but possibly later. The side rod linkage that is broken attaches to the Eccentric; The locomotive is a Ho scale,  Key Imports early Challenger
If that helps any? I'll try and post a pick later.

Thanks,
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:36 PM, Todd Horton via Groups.Io <toddchorton@...> wrote:


Brian, Can you post a picture of what broke?  
 
Todd Horton


From: Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
To: STMFC <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:04 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive

Hi All,

I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?

Thanks,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
Bruce Smith
 

​I would suggest a tiny brass pop rivet ;)  I realize that you may never have riveted valve gear and it isn't as simple as using a screw, but any owner of steam models should have this skill in their quiver. 


Regards

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 7:04 PM
To: STMFC
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Hi All,

I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?

Thanks,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
Bryian Sones
 

Bruce,
No, I have never had to replace a rivet linkage before. However I have Quartered Repaired and painted also added fixture details and sound decoders to many brass locomotives. I have even painted brass professionally so I'm not afraid to tackle the task. I'm just not aware of the process to produce a replacement rivet. I could easily fabricate a replacement from brass stock as a stand in but I'm not sure if that is how it is done or is there a rivet tool?

Kind regards,
  
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 6:24 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


​I would suggest a tiny brass pop rivet ;)  I realize that you may never have riveted valve gear and it isn't as simple as using a screw, but any owner of steam models should have this skill in their quiver. 

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 7:04 PM
To: STMFC
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Hi All,

I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?

Thanks,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
Douglas Harding
 

Bryian did the rivet break? Or did the linkage itself break? If it is the rivet, Kemtron, among others, at one time sold HO rivets for attaching linkages together. If the linkage rod broke, you may have to trace the broken part on a piece of brass and file out a new one.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bryian Sones via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive

 

Hi Tony,

 

Sorry unable to post a pic at the moment but possibly later. The side rod linkage that is broken attaches to the Eccentric; The locomotive is a Ho scale,  Key Imports early Challenger

If that helps any? I'll try and post a pick later.

 

Thanks,

 

Bryian Sones

Union Pacific Prototype Modeler

Murrieta, CA

 

On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:36 PM, Todd Horton via Groups.Io <toddchorton@...> wrote:

 

Brian, Can you post a picture of what broke?  

 

Todd Horton

 

From: Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
To: STMFC <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:04 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive

 

Hi All,

 

I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?

 

Thanks,

 

Bryian Sones

Union Pacific Prototype Modeler

Murrieta, CA

 

 
Bruce Smith
 

​Brian,


There are a number of suppliers of rivets of that size and having a rivet tool is very useful. Micro rivets are usually hollow tubular stock. The rivet will come with one side formed. I insert the rivet, put the formed side on a hard surface and then gently peen the unformed side. The tool I use is about 1/8 diameter stock with a concave end that helps in peening over the rivet end. Mine came from Bowser.


Regards

Bruce


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Bruce,
No, I have never had to replace a rivet linkage before. However I have Quartered Repaired and painted also added fixture details and sound decoders to many brass locomotives. I have even painted brass professionally so I'm not afraid to tackle the task. I'm just not aware of the process to produce a replacement rivet. I could easily fabricate a replacement from brass stock as a stand in but I'm not sure if that is how it is done or is there a rivet tool?

Kind regards,
  
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 6:24 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


​I would suggest a tiny brass pop rivet ;)  I realize that you may never have riveted valve gear and it isn't as simple as using a screw, but any owner of steam models should have this skill in their quiver. 

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 7:04 PM
To: STMFC
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Hi All,

I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?

Thanks,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
Bryian Sones
 

Doug,

No, just the rivet broke. The lip on the pop rivet wore out. It probably wasn't maintenance properly and wore down. The linkage is fine.

Regards,
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 6:55 PM, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:


Bryian did the rivet break? Or did the linkage itself break? If it is the rivet, Kemtron, among others, at one time sold HO rivets for attaching linkages together. If the linkage rod broke, you may have to trace the broken part on a piece of brass and file out a new one.
 
Doug  Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bryian Sones via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Hi Tony,
 
Sorry unable to post a pic at the moment but possibly later. The side rod linkage that is broken attaches to the Eccentric; The locomotive is a Ho scale,  Key Imports early Challenger
If that helps any? I'll try and post a pick later.
 
Thanks,
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
 
On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:36 PM, Todd Horton via Groups.Io <toddchorton@...> wrote:
 
Brian, Can you post a picture of what broke?  
 
Todd Horton
 
From: Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
To: STMFC <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:04 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Hi All,
 
I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?
 
Thanks,
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
 
 
Bryian Sones
 

Thanks Bruce, I'm familiar with rivet tools. I've used them in other application in the automotive field. I used to build show cars for the CES and the SEMA show when I was younger. I wasn't sure if there was a hand tool available to replace rivets that small or if it was stamped during production and the end user was left with fabricating some sort of replacement if it wore out. I'll see if Bowser still sells the tool. Is there anyone else that might sell the rivet tool?

Thanks,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 7:07 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


​Brian,

There are a number of suppliers of rivets of that size and having a rivet tool is very useful. Micro rivets are usually hollow tubular stock. The rivet will come with one side formed. I insert the rivet, put the formed side on a hard surface and then gently peen the unformed side. The tool I use is about 1/8 diameter stock with a concave end that helps in peening over the rivet end. Mine came from Bowser.

Regards
Bruce

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Bruce,
No, I have never had to replace a rivet linkage before. However I have Quartered Repaired and painted also added fixture details and sound decoders to many brass locomotives. I have even painted brass professionally so I'm not afraid to tackle the task. I'm just not aware of the process to produce a replacement rivet. I could easily fabricate a replacement from brass stock as a stand in but I'm not sure if that is how it is done or is there a rivet tool?

Kind regards,
  
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 6:24 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


​I would suggest a tiny brass pop rivet ;)  I realize that you may never have riveted valve gear and it isn't as simple as using a screw, but any owner of steam models should have this skill in their quiver. 

Regards
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 7:04 PM
To: STMFC
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Hi All,

I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?

Thanks,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Brian,
 
The Bowser website (www.bowser-trains.com) pages for their now discontinued steam locomotive kits indicates that “Most repair parts are available,” so they may well have the valve gear rivets, which are tiny little things, and the riveting tool, if you need one.
 
Good luck finding what you need.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Bryian Sones via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 10:07 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Doug,
 
No, just the rivet broke. The lip on the pop rivet wore out. It probably wasn't maintenance properly and wore down. The linkage is fine.
 
Regards,
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 6:55 PM, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:


Bryian did the rivet break? Or did the linkage itself break? If it is the rivet, Kemtron, among others, at one time sold HO rivets for attaching linkages together. If the linkage rod broke, you may have to trace the broken part on a piece of brass and file out a new one.
 
Doug  Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bryian Sones via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Hi Tony,
 
Sorry unable to post a pic at the moment but possibly later. The side rod linkage that is broken attaches to the Eccentric; The locomotive is a Ho scale,  Key Imports early Challenger
If that helps any? I'll try and post a pick later.
 
Thanks,
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
 
On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:36 PM, Todd Horton via Groups.Io <toddchorton@...> wrote:
 
Brian, Can you post a picture of what broke? 
 
Todd Horton
 
From: Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
To: STMFC <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:04 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Hi All,
 
I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?
 
Thanks,
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
 
 
Bryian Sones
 

Thanks Ralph, 

I'll give Bowser a call in the morning. I appreciate everyone's help.

Thank you! 
  
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 7:41 PM, Ralph W. Brown <rbrown51@...> wrote:


Hi Brian,
 
The Bowser website (www.bowser-trains.com) pages for their now discontinued steam locomotive kits indicates that “Most repair parts are available,” so they may well have the valve gear rivets, which are tiny little things, and the riveting tool, if you need one.
 
Good luck finding what you need.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Doug,
 
No, just the rivet broke. The lip on the pop rivet wore out. It probably wasn't maintenance properly and wore down. The linkage is fine.
 
Regards,
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 6:55 PM, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:


Bryian did the rivet break? Or did the linkage itself break? If it is the rivet, Kemtron, among others, at one time sold HO rivets for attaching linkages together. If the linkage rod broke, you may have to trace the broken part on a piece of brass and file out a new one.
 
Doug  Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bryian Sones via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Hi Tony,
 
Sorry unable to post a pic at the moment but possibly later. The side rod linkage that is broken attaches to the Eccentric; The locomotive is a Ho scale,  Key Imports early Challenger
If that helps any? I'll try and post a pick later.
 
Thanks,
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
 
On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:36 PM, Todd Horton via Groups.Io <toddchorton@...> wrote:
 
Brian, Can you post a picture of what broke? 
 
Todd Horton
 
From: Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
To: STMFC <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:04 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Hi All,
 
I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?
 
Thanks,
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
 
 
Douglas Harding
 

Rivets are available from:

https://knupfer.info/shop/index.php/deutsch/nieten-nietenschrauben.html

https://www.fohrmann.com/de/niete-aus-kupfer-mit-halbrundkopf-din-660-fuer-modellbau.html

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bryian Sones via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 9:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive

 

Doug,

 

No, just the rivet broke. The lip on the pop rivet wore out. It probably wasn't maintenance properly and wore down. The linkage is fine.

 

Regards,

 

Bryian Sones

Union Pacific Prototype Modeler

Murrieta, CA

 

On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 6:55 PM, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@...> wrote:

 

Bryian did the rivet break? Or did the linkage itself break? If it is the rivet, Kemtron, among others, at one time sold HO rivets for attaching linkages together. If the linkage rod broke, you may have to trace the broken part on a piece of brass and file out a new one.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bryian Sones via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive

 

Hi Tony,

 

Sorry unable to post a pic at the moment but possibly later. The side rod linkage that is broken attaches to the Eccentric; The locomotive is a Ho scale,  Key Imports early Challenger

If that helps any? I'll try and post a pick later.

 

Thanks,

 

Bryian Sones

Union Pacific Prototype Modeler

Murrieta, CA

 

On Tuesday, January 29, 2019 5:36 PM, Todd Horton via Groups.Io <toddchorton@...> wrote:

 

Brian, Can you post a picture of what broke?  

 

Todd Horton

 

From: Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...>
To: STMFC <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:04 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive

 

Hi All,

 

I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?

 

Thanks,

 

Bryian Sones

Union Pacific Prototype Modeler

Murrieta, CA

 

 

 
Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Almost all HO steam locos use/used "hollow rivets" (not Pop-Rivets) for the pivot joints in their valve-gear linkages. Precision Scale offers a variety of these. Maybe Greenway too. They come in many diameters and lengths.

A “Hollow Rivet” has a solid shank below the head with a drilled-out hollow (tube-like) point. Once inserted in the links, the hollow point is spread (flared) and then rolled over forming a flange. It thus ends up with the head on one end, and the flange on the opposite end, holding the links together but allowing them to pivot. A special rivet-set tool does this flaring best, but lacking that a center-punch works to start the flare, and some very careful work with a tiny jewler’s ball-peen hammer can finish it.

*IF* you have access to a small lathe, such rivets are not hard to make.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Jan 29, 2019, at 8:04 PM, Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...> wrote:

Hi All,

I had the linkage break on one of my brass locomotives. It appears to have been held together by a tiny brass pop rivet. Does anyone have a suggestion on the best way to replace it and reconnect the linkage?

Thanks,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA
Edward
 

I would also like to add that when setting such a rivet to join moving parts, that it not be set too tight.
If set and too tight, the rivet should be removed and the job done over.
Trying to work a tight joint to free it up could damage the rivet 's upset.
Binding might also cause the moving parts to possibly fail at some point. 
Putting a thin piece of paper or similar removable material between the moving parts before riveting may help avoid the issue.

Ed Bommer
.
Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Good advice.

When setting such a rivet one wants to roll the hollow end over into a bead rather like a doubled-over sock. You do not want to just squash it flat. Flattening it may work, but will usually crack the rivet’s new head, and weaken the rivet. This is why rivet-set tools are made.


They form the new head with a smooth sort-of “rolling-over” action (no true rotary motion is involved). Lacking a rivet-set of the correct size, a reasonable alternative is to carefully expand the rivet just a bit with a countersink or other pointed / tapered tool, then work the edge outward and down with a small jeweler’s ball-peen hammer. It’s not as good as using a proper rivet-set, but can be quite satisfactory.

As an aside, this is the same idea as rolling in boiler tubes in a tube-sheet. Here the much larger tubes ARE actually rolled into form with a rotary-roller tool driven by a large air or electric drill. As the tool rotates inside the hollow tube it forces the metal outward then bends and stretches it back over itself forming a bead.


Such a tool would be great for hollow rivets too, but for HO valve gear the parts would be microscopic!

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Jan 30, 2019, at 11:09 AM, Edward <edb8391@...> wrote:

I would also like to add that when setting such a rivet to join moving parts, that it not be set too tight.
If set and too tight, the rivet should be removed and the job done over.
Trying to work a tight joint to free it up could damage the rivet 's upset.
Binding might also cause the moving parts to possibly fail at some point. 
Putting a thin piece of paper or similar removable material between the moving parts before riveting may help avoid the issue.

Ed Bommer
.

Dennis Storzek
 

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is, when rolling the bead on the tubular end, it is possible to draw the parts together too tightly. Way in the past I remember a tip; poke a hole in a small piece of paper and place that between the parts to be riveted, with the rivet going through the hole. After setting the river, the paper can be ripped out, leaving .003" to .004" of clearance between the parts.

Dennis Storzek
Bryian Sones
 

Dan,

With all that said. I assume there might be better tools available than others. Do you have any suggestion on where to get the best tool for this and which to buy? 
Also, thank you to everyone for the input. There are really good suggestions and advice.


Thank you,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 12:03 PM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:


Good advice.

When setting such a rivet one wants to roll the hollow end over into a bead rather like a doubled-over sock. You do not want to just squash it flat. Flattening it may work, but will usually crack the rivet’s new head, and weaken the rivet. This is why rivet-set tools are made.


They form the new head with a smooth sort-of “rolling-over” action (no true rotary motion is involved). Lacking a rivet-set of the correct size, a reasonable alternative is to carefully expand the rivet just a bit with a countersink or other pointed / tapered tool, then work the edge outward and down with a small jeweler’s ball-peen hammer. It’s not as good as using a proper rivet-set, but can be quite satisfactory.

As an aside, this is the same idea as rolling in boiler tubes in a tube-sheet. Here the much larger tubes ARE actually rolled into form with a rotary-roller tool driven by a large air or electric drill. As the tool rotates inside the hollow tube it forces the metal outward then bends and stretches it back over itself forming a bead.


Such a tool would be great for hollow rivets too, but for HO valve gear the parts would be microscopic!

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Jan 30, 2019, at 11:09 AM, Edward <edb8391@...> wrote:

I would also like to add that when setting such a rivet to join moving parts, that it not be set too tight.
If set and too tight, the rivet should be removed and the job done over.
Trying to work a tight joint to free it up could damage the rivet 's upset.
Binding might also cause the moving parts to possibly fail at some point. 
Putting a thin piece of paper or similar removable material between the moving parts before riveting may help avoid the issue.

Ed Bommer
.



Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Bryian,
 
Years ago, well decades really, I had zero problems using the tool provided with the Penn Line kit I was building at the time.  Some time later I had a much beefier tool custom machined for me and it also worked without difficulty.  Bowser presently offers a riveting tool for the valve gear rivets (Part No. 1-36), which I suspect is very like, if not the same as, the Penn Line tool.
 
Incidentally, I didn’t use the paper-between-the-parts trick mentioned previously, but it seems to me the instructions (yes, I read instructions) said something about not getting too aggressive with the hammer, or words to that affect.  Still, if one’s “hammer” lacks finesse, the paper sounds like a good idea.
 
Pax,
 
 
Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
 

From: Bryian Sones via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 10:28 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Linkage repair on a brass locomotive
 
Dan,
 
With all that said. I assume there might be better tools available than others. Do you have any suggestion on where to get the best tool for this and which to buy?
Also, thank you to everyone for the input. There are really good suggestions and advice.
 
 
Thank you,
 
Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 12:03 PM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:


Good advice.
 
When setting such a rivet one wants to roll the hollow end over into a bead rather like a doubled-over sock. You do not want to just squash it flat. Flattening it may work, but will usually crack the rivet’s new head, and weaken the rivet. This is why rivet-set tools are made.
 
 
They form the new head with a smooth sort-of “rolling-over” action (no true rotary motion is involved). Lacking a rivet-set of the correct size, a reasonable alternative is to carefully expand the rivet just a bit with a countersink or other pointed / tapered tool, then work the edge outward and down with a small jeweler’s ball-peen hammer. It’s not as good as using a proper rivet-set, but can be quite satisfactory.
 
As an aside, this is the same idea as rolling in boiler tubes in a tube-sheet. Here the much larger tubes ARE actually rolled into form with a rotary-roller tool driven by a large air or electric drill. As the tool rotates inside the hollow tube it forces the metal outward then bends and stretches it back over itself forming a bead.
 
 
Such a tool would be great for hollow rivets too, but for HO valve gear the parts would be microscopic!
 
Dan Mitchell
==========
On Jan 30, 2019, at 11:09 AM, Edward <edb8391@...> wrote:
 
I would also like to add that when setting such a rivet to join moving parts, that it not be set too tight.
If set and too tight, the rivet should be removed and the job done over.
Trying to work a tight joint to free it up could damage the rivet 's upset.
Binding might also cause the moving parts to possibly fail at some point.
Putting a thin piece of paper or similar removable material between the moving parts before riveting may help avoid the issue.

Ed Bommer
.
 
Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Due to the tiny size of the rivets used in HO valve-gear, the tools needed to set them are mostly available only from the suppliers of such rivets. That’s Bowser (ex Kemtron), maybe PSC, and someone mentioned some european (German?) supplier. Others?

Similar tools (not necessarily rivet-sets) are also available from commercial jeweler’s suppliers. Some of these are useful as a PART of the rivet-heading process. Ideally, using a proper rivet-set, the entire rolling operation can be done in one application. Note that my personal experience is the the heads form better with repeated light impacts rather than one big smash. However, the result can be achieved using several different tools applied in the proper order, such as …

1) a tapered tool like a center punch used to start the flare of the rivet, to perhaps 45 degrees

2) a ball-shaped tool to continure the flare out to perhaps 90 degrees. A small bearing-ball works well here. A Jeweler's “dapping” punch works well here if you can find a really small one.


3) a punch with a cup-shaped hollow tip to continue the roll well past 90 degrees. Jewelers use such “bezel-stone setting punches" for setting jewels. Watchmaker’s use such punches for setting small bearings … I have several varieties. Often these come with a small frame to hold the punches in alignment with a setting anvil.


The simple hand-tool set is not very expensive. The watchmaker’s set with alignment frame, etc., is quite expensive. How much of such work do you expect to do? Simple, cheaper tools will usually work even if they louse-up sometimes. How many blank rivets can you buy for the cost of the watchmaker’s setting device? Hundreds at least.

This is careful, fussy work for sure. It takes proper technique, experience, a good rivet blank, and some luck. Ideally the rivet can be flared and rolled without cracking it. That’s not always possible. Sometimes the rivets are too hard and brittle making a proper roll impossible. Such rivets are made of brass, copper, and steel. The softer the better. If the new head cracks examine it under strong magnification … you’ll have to decide if it looks good enough. If it’s mostly rolled over it’ll work … these little things are NOT highly stressed. If it’s rather squashed flat with several cracks, it’ll likely fail. Often it’ll take more than one try to get it acceptable.

If one has a small lathe the job becomes easier since you can make your own rivets and the tools to set them. They are not complicated.

Dan Mitchell
==========


On Jan 30, 2019, at 10:28 PM, Bryian Sones via Groups.Io <bryian.sones@...> wrote:

Dan,

With all that said. I assume there might be better tools available than others. Do you have any suggestion on where to get the best tool for this and which to buy? 
Also, thank you to everyone for the input. There are really good suggestions and advice.


Thank you,

Bryian Sones
Union Pacific Prototype Modeler
Murrieta, CA


On Wednesday, January 30, 2019 12:03 PM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:


Good advice.

When setting such a rivet one wants to roll the hollow end over into a bead rather like a doubled-over sock. You do not want to just squash it flat. Flattening it may work, but will usually crack the rivet’s new head, and weaken the rivet. This is why rivet-set tools are made.

<tubular_set.gif>

They form the new head with a smooth sort-of “rolling-over” action (no true rotary motion is involved). Lacking a rivet-set of the correct size, a reasonable alternative is to carefully expand the rivet just a bit with a countersink or other pointed / tapered tool, then work the edge outward and down with a small jeweler’s ball-peen hammer. It’s not as good as using a proper rivet-set, but can be quite satisfactory.

As an aside, this is the same idea as rolling in boiler tubes in a tube-sheet. Here the much larger tubes ARE actually rolled into form with a rotary-roller tool driven by a large air or electric drill. As the tool rotates inside the hollow tube it forces the metal outward then bends and stretches it back over itself forming a bead.

<universal-combo-bead copy.png>

Such a tool would be great for hollow rivets too, but for HO valve gear the parts would be microscopic!

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Jan 30, 2019, at 11:09 AM, Edward <edb8391@...> wrote:

I would also like to add that when setting such a rivet to join moving parts, that it not be set too tight.
If set and too tight, the rivet should be removed and the job done over.
Trying to work a tight joint to free it up could damage the rivet 's upset.
Binding might also cause the moving parts to possibly fail at some point. 
Putting a thin piece of paper or similar removable material between the moving parts before riveting may help avoid the issue.

Ed Bommer
.



<tubular_set.gif><universal-combo-bead copy.png>
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