Flat Black
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Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...>
Colleagues, what utility flat black (solvent-based) are you all using these days?
I do have a cache of Floquil from their last days, and but an apparent late formula change causes them to take 24/48 hours to completely dry. Scalecoat(s) have too much gloss and take too long. TruColor works but is a mystery (specifically formulated for brushing). I am not yet looked to ModelMaster. My 60+ years of work habits are centered around solvent paint finishes that are workable within hours, not days, and I have no desire nor inclination to change. In this regard, I can be patient with key paint finishes, but am not at all patient with utility projects where I need to paint and move on. Denny Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento, CA 95864
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Chuck Cover
There are always various responses to these types of questions. I have been
using ACE flat black primer in a rattle can. I use it to prime all models whether a resin kit or a styrene kitbash. It is inexpensive, has a fine spray, covers well, and is easy to use. I do all my painting in a spray booth. I have found all other paints that I use for the final finish work well with the primer. I also use it as the final finish for black freight cars such as hopper and gondola cars. Chuck Cover Santa Fe, NM
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TruColor for brushing??? Accupaint, TruColor and Star paints can (must) be thinned for airbrushing.
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The thinner is volatile, and the caps are not 100% airtight, so the paint often desiccates in the bottle. But adding new thinner will restore it.
On 2/1/2019 1:20 PM, Denny Anspach wrote:
Colleagues, what utility flat black (solvent-based) are you all using these days? --
*Tim O'Connor* *Sterling, Massachusetts*
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dale florence <dwwesley@...>
Tim, Time to change. Dale
On Friday, February 1, 2019, 4:07:49 PM EST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
TruColor for brushing??? Accupaint, TruColor and Star paints can (must) be thinned for airbrushing. The thinner is volatile, and the caps are not 100% airtight, so the paint often desiccates in the bottle. But adding new thinner will restore it. On 2/1/2019 1:20 PM, Denny Anspach wrote: > Colleagues, what utility flat black (solvent-based) are you all using these days? > > I do have a cache of Floquil from their last days, and but an apparent late formula change causes them to take 24/48 hours to completely dry. Scalecoat(s) have too much gloss and take too long. TruColor works but is a mystery (specifically formulated for brushing). I am not yet looked to ModelMaster. My 60+ years of work habits are centered around solvent paint finishes that are workable within hours, not days, and I have no desire nor inclination to change. In this regard, I can be patient with key paint finishes, but am not at all patient with utility projects where I need to paint and move on. > > Denny S. Anspach, MD > Sacramento, CA 95864 -- *Tim O'Connor* *Sterling, Massachusetts*
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Ralph W. Brown
Hi Denny,
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Minuteman Scale Models/ScaleCoat has at least two ScaleCoat I flat black colors: flat black and engine black, neither of which I've yet had a chance to try. I ordered a bunch of ScaleCoat I paint colors from Walthers a few weeks ago, but got only about a third of what I ordered. For whatever reason Walthers canceled (as opposed to backordered) the rest. I've since been meaning to call Walthers about, but haven't. I've likely just order the rest directly from Minuteman. It's been awhile since I've done any model painting (cold weather/no spray booth), but in the past ScaleCoat I was for me second only to Floquil, which I still miss. Oh well . . . Pax, Ralph Brown Portland, Maine PRRT&HS No. 3966 NMRA No. L2532 rbrown51[at]maine[dot]rr[dot]com
-----Original Message-----
From: Denny Anspach Sent: Friday, February 1, 2019 1:20 PM To: RealSteamEraFreightCarList Subject: [RealSTMFC] Flat Black Colleagues, what utility flat black (solvent-based) are you all using these days? I do have a cache of Floquil from their last days, and but an apparent late formula change causes them to take 24/48 hours to completely dry. Scalecoat(s) have too much gloss and take too long. TruColor works but is a mystery (specifically formulated for brushing). I am not yet looked to ModelMaster. My 60+ years of work habits are centered around solvent paint finishes that are workable within hours, not days, and I have no desire nor inclination to change. In this regard, I can be patient with key paint finishes, but am not at all patient with utility projects where I need to paint and move on. Denny Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento, CA 95864
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Quite by coincidence, I purchased my first paint bottles today, flat black Model Master. The hobby shop didn’t stock mrr colors. I had to give away all my Floqui, the only product I ever used, when we moved to Tucson. The moving company wouldn’t carry it. So I have a few questions. Is the 2:1 ratio of paint to thinner as recommended on the bottle for air brushing accurate? What solvent is best for cleaning the air brush? Freight car content: I’m painting 6 undec Train Miniature hopper cars. Thanks for any help. – Al Westerfield
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: dale florence via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, February 1, 2019 2:19 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Black
Tim,
Time to change.
Dale
On Friday, February 1, 2019, 4:07:49 PM EST, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
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Jeff
Al, Have you checked out Joe Fugate's MRH Guide to Acrylic Painting? If you are a registered (free!) member of the MRH website (which also subscribes you to MRH Magazine) the book is a free download from https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/subscribers-only/painting/acrylics There is a whole chapter on thinner formulas and his recommendations for ratios.
On Fri, Feb 1, 2019 at 1:57 PM al_westerfield <westerfieldalfred@...> wrote:
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Jeff Shultz http://www.shultzinfosystems.com A railfan approaches a grade crossing hoping that there will be a train.
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I too used Floquil, and still do while my dwindling supply lasts, but nowadays I mostly use TruColor or Model Master. Model Master comes in two varieties … enamel (oil based) and acrylic (water based).
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I use acrylics mostly for brush panting small details. For spraying I use TruColor and Model Master enamel (never have had much luck spraying acrylics). For spraying Model Master enamel I thin perhaps 30-50%. If returning the paint to the bottle, I use ONLY their suggested thinner (some kind of "mineral spirits"). If NOT returning the paint to the bottle, I use most any commercial lacquer-thinner. With the lacquer-thinner, use good ventilation, and preferably a spray booth, the fumes are toxic. I use TruColor with their own thinner (unfortunately, it’s VERY expensive). Use of the lacquer-thinner speeds the drying process. One needs to be careful not to put it on plastic too wet, as it will attack the surface of the plastic (as did the older Floquil and Scalecoat 1). Experience solves this problem. I use the lacquer-thinner for cleaning the airbrush with either paint. The main downsides to Model Master enamel is that it dries slower than Floquil (even when using lacquer-thinner), and does not come in “railroad” colors. Fortunately it does come in many colors, many of them "flat”. I’m finding both TruColor or Model Master to be satisfactory. Both are somewhat different than Floquil, and some practice and experience is needed for best results. I still like Floquil, but it’s becoming harder and harder to find, and there are at least THREE incompatible formulations for it (which can lead to some real disasters). I also use some Scalecoat, both 1 & 2, and it’s “OK”, but it’s abominably slow drying time is a real “pain” … unless it’s BAKED. Baked Scalecoat is my choice for most brass models … it’s near bulletproof. Unfortunately one can’t bake plastic or most wood models (depending on what they’re glued with). Even on brass, one must be careful to remove any little plastic parts (bushings, etc.). Dan Mitchell ==========
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Al
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Model Master solvent based paint, yes, or is this an acrylic? That sounds correct to me... adding about 1 part thinner to 2 parts paint sounds right. You can start with less thinner and then add more until the flow is right for you and your airbrush, PSI pressure, elevation, ambient temperature, and humidity. :-) Tim O'Connor
On 2/1/2019 4:57 PM, al_westerfield
wrote:
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Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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Dan and Jeff – Thanks for the info. Yes, I remember the changes in solvents in Floquil. Since I sprayed straight out of the bottle it didn’t bother me. – Al Westerfield
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Friday, February 1, 2019 3:40 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Black
I too used Floquil, and still do while my dwindling supply lasts, but nowadays I mostly use TruColor or Model Master. Model Master comes in two varieties … enamel (oil based) and acrylic (water based).
I use acrylics mostly for brush panting small details. For spraying I use TruColor and Model Master enamel (never have had much luck spraying acrylics).
For spraying Model Master enamel I thin perhaps 30-50%. If returning the paint to the bottle, I use ONLY their suggested thinner (some kind of "mineral spirits"). If NOT returning the paint to the bottle, I use most any commercial lacquer-thinner. With the lacquer-thinner, use good ventilation, and preferably a spray booth, the fumes are toxic.
I use TruColor with their own thinner (unfortunately, it’s VERY expensive).
Use of the lacquer-thinner speeds the drying process. One needs to be careful not to put it on plastic too wet, as it will attack the surface of the plastic (as did the older Floquil and Scalecoat 1). Experience solves this problem.
I use the lacquer-thinner for cleaning the airbrush with either paint.
The main downsides to Model Master enamel is that it dries slower than Floquil (even when using lacquer-thinner), and does not come in “railroad” colors. Fortunately it does come in many colors, many of them "flat”.
I’m finding both TruColor or Model Master to be satisfactory. Both are somewhat different than Floquil, and some practice and experience is needed for best results. I still like Floquil, but it’s becoming harder and harder to find, and there are at least THREE incompatible formulations for it (which can lead to some real disasters).
I also use some Scalecoat, both 1 & 2, and it’s “OK”, but it’s abominably slow drying time is a real “pain” … unless it’s BAKED. Baked Scalecoat is my choice for most brass models … it’s near bulletproof. Unfortunately one can’t bake plastic or most wood models (depending on what they’re glued with). Even on brass, one must be careful to remove any little plastic parts (bushings, etc.).
Dan Mitchell ==========
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Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...>
I appreciate the many suggestions for water-based acrylics, but…... I use only solveny- based paints.
Tim expresses skepticism about TruColor flat black being only “brushable”, as well he might. My information came directly by phone from one of TruColor’s owners in Phoenix, and I am sure it has something to do with why my tries with this thinned paint with an airbrush have not been satisfactory.’' I am not adverse to using rattle cans from the hardware store, except that for the fine small work that we commonly do, the lack of control and the very wide pattern promises to cause a lot of mischief, not mention waste and paint scatter. I have often though of emptying one of these cans into a receptacle and then using it again through an air brush. Has anyone tried this? It would be relatively cheap, I would think. Off list, I have received a strong vote for Tamiya flat black,, and I am going to try it. So far, Tamiya (solvent) is the most consistent rising star in my model painting world, and incrementally I use them more and more. Denny Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento, CA 95864
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Benjamin Hom
Denny Anspach asked: "I am not adverse to using rattle cans from the hardware store, except that for the fine small work that we commonly do, the lack of control and the very wide pattern promises to cause a lot of mischief, not mention waste and paint scatter. I have often though of emptying one of these cans into a receptacle and then using it again through an air brush. Has anyone tried this? It would be relatively cheap, I would think." Instructional video: Ben Hom
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Andy Carlson
Years ago a very prolific and excellent professional painter told me he used an auto body product for priming his steam locomotives (and I see no reason that resin kits couldn't benefit as well). It was called a non-sanding primer, meant to be used before color was applied in the re-finish work done at collision repair shops. This stuff was NOT a surfacer, which is the commonly used primer which builds thickness which allows pre-color block sanding. The non-sanding goes on smooth and if shot over a smooth surface, this last primer is ready for color paint after it dries. This is the trait which allows good model priming, and as a lacquer type of finish, it is quick drying, another useful modeling trait. Auto lacquer primers seem to be universally OK with many different types of paints, water based and solvent based. I have not yet acquired any of this yet, so I have no experience so far. -Andy Carlson Ojai CA
On Friday, February 1, 2019, 5:01:05 PM PST, Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...> wrote:
I appreciate the many suggestions for water-based acrylics, but…... I use only solveny- based paints. Tim expresses skepticism about TruColor flat black being only “brushable”, as well he might. My information came directly by phone from one of TruColor’s owners in Phoenix, and I am sure it has something to do with why my tries with this thinned paint with an airbrush have not been satisfactory.’' I am not adverse to using rattle cans from the hardware store, except that for the fine small work that we commonly do, the lack of control and the very wide pattern promises to cause a lot of mischief, not mention waste and paint scatter. I have often though of emptying one of these cans into a receptacle and then using it again through an air brush. Has anyone tried this? It would be relatively cheap, I would think. Off list, I have received a strong vote for Tamiya flat black,, and I am going to try it. So far, Tamiya (solvent) is the most consistent rising star in my model painting world, and incrementally I use them more and more. Denny Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento, CA 95864
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Why decant? I use the model master spry cans as is. They work greta and while you don't have the control of an airbrush, I paint all my brass models with them and then have painted some resin kits such as my recent C&O hopper build
Regards Bruce Smith Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...>
Sent: Friday, February 1, 2019 7:23 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Black Denny Anspach asked:
"I am not adverse to using rattle cans from the hardware store, except that for the fine small work that we commonly do, the lack of control and the very wide pattern promises to cause a lot of mischief, not mention waste and paint scatter. I have often though of emptying one of these cans into a receptacle and then using it again through an air brush. Has anyone tried this? It would be relatively cheap, I would think." Instructional video:
Ben Hom
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Tony Thompson
Denny Anspach wrote:
Off list, I have received a strong vote for Tamiya flat black,, and I am going to try it. So far, Tamiya (solvent) is the most consistent rising star in my model painting world, and incrementally I use them more and more.I have been very happy with a number of the Tamiya colors, and the paint behaves very nicely. This is true for the bottled paint and especially for the spray cans, which have an excellent nozzle (light-years from the hardware store stuff). I included some comments on the paint in a more general commentary on Tamiya in a blog post. If you're interested, here is a link: https://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2018/08/a-shout-out-for-tamiya-products.html Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Denny it sounds like they simply eliminated the retarder in the paint - that would cause it to go
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on flat. Assuming that it's really the same TruColor paint that uses the same thinner. If you still have some AP retarder you might want to try that. (Unless TruColor sells it - I did not check.)
On 2/1/2019 8:00 PM, Denny Anspach wrote:
I appreciate the many suggestions for water-based acrylics, but…... I use only solveny- based paints. --
*Tim O'Connor* *Sterling, Massachusetts*
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Steve Salotti
Andy, I have been using Dupli-Cover Perfect Match primer for several years. While it costs around $8.00 a can it works really well. It's available at most autopart stores. Steve Salotti
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Schleigh Mike
Hello Group! Andy's note below reminded me of one of our model railroading god-fathers, Mr William Clouser, once of the Saint Louis neighborhood. Respected scratch builder and professional model builder, he authored in the March 1959 Model Railroader an article on painting models using an air brush. His favorite primer? Auto finish lacquer from an appropriate store. I believe he worked with a gallon size decanting into smaller containers for convenience. Most of us would not need so much. His article has been a lifetime reference for me. Mike Schleigh of Grove City, Penna., Land of Vortex
On Friday, February 1, 2019, 8:27:29 PM EST, Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:
Years ago a very prolific and excellent professional painter told me he used an auto body product for priming his steam locomotives (and I see no reason that resin kits couldn't benefit as well). It was called a non-sanding primer, meant to be used before color was applied in the re-finish work done at collision repair shops. This stuff was NOT a surfacer, which is the commonly used primer which builds thickness which allows pre-color block sanding. The non-sanding goes on smooth and if shot over a smooth surface, this last primer is ready for color paint after it dries. This is the trait which allows good model priming, and as a lacquer type of finish, it is quick drying, another useful modeling trait. Auto lacquer primers seem to be universally OK with many different types of paints, water based and solvent based. I have not yet acquired any of this yet, so I have no experience so far. -Andy Carlson Ojai CA
On Friday, February 1, 2019, 5:01:05 PM PST, Denny Anspach <danspachmd@...> wrote:
I appreciate the many suggestions for water-based acrylics, but…... I use only solveny- based paints. Tim expresses skepticism about TruColor flat black being only “brushable”, as well he might. My information came directly by phone from one of TruColor’s owners in Phoenix, and I am sure it has something to do with why my tries with this thinned paint with an airbrush have not been satisfactory.’' I am not adverse to using rattle cans from the hardware store, except that for the fine small work that we commonly do, the lack of control and the very wide pattern promises to cause a lot of mischief, not mention waste and paint scatter. I have often though of emptying one of these cans into a receptacle and then using it again through an air brush. Has anyone tried this? It would be relatively cheap, I would think. Off list, I have received a strong vote for Tamiya flat black,, and I am going to try it. So far, Tamiya (solvent) is the most consistent rising star in my model painting world, and incrementally I use them more and more. Denny Denny S. Anspach, MD Sacramento, CA 95864
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Rod Miller
On 2/1/19 5:00 PM, Denny Anspach wrote:
I appreciate the many suggestions for water-based acrylics, but…... I use only solveny- based paints.I am particularly fond of SEM Trim Black designed for use of external automotive trim. It is solvent-based and is available in rattle cans and quarts. It dries to a satin finish. I use it for steam locomotives among other things. The rattle cans are great for painting small items without setting up and cleaning the air brush. It can be handled soon after application but the instructions say to allow 2 days for complete curing, I presume to achieve the hardness level needed for the exterior of a vehicle. The rattle can puts out lots of paint so use short bursts while moving it fast. Like lacquer, it can be sanded. Many a boiler has been sanded then over sprayed with clear which concealed the fine scratches. -- Rod Miller Handcraftsman === Custom 2-rail O Scale Models: Drives, Repairs, Steam Loco Building, More http://www.rodmiller.com
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Charles Happel
The Ace website does not list a flat black primer in a rattle can, although it has a couple that are close. Was something omitted from the name?
Chuck Happel
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