Military loads.


Brian Carlson
 

Years ago after seeing a photo of military truck load in either the RPC article on loads or in an article, I picked up a Roco Minitanks M35 to create a load.

Now after thinking about the August 1957 era I Model I’m wondering if a single M35 on a flatcar would be a common load. Did military loads commonly move in singles/separate moves in my era.

I wasn’t around then so hoping for advice.

Brian J. Carlson


John Barry
 

Brian,

Its that great adult undergarment answer, it depends.  There were a lot of unit moves to training, unit movements for deployments overseas not so much.  But there were also deliveries of replacement vehicles that moved as individual or small shipments, especially to smaller installations.  Sometimes cars in unit moves got bad ordered and moved alone after repair.  

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736


On Sunday, February 3, 2019, 3:14:56 PM EST, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io <prrk41361@...> wrote:


Years ago after seeing a photo of military truck load in either the RPC article on loads or in an article, I picked up a Roco Minitanks M35 to create a load.

Now after thinking about the August 1957 era I Model I’m wondering if a single M35 on a flatcar would be a common load.  Did military loads commonly move in singles/separate moves in my era.

I wasn’t around then so hoping for advice.

Brian J. Carlson



Daniel A. Mitchell
 

In most cases they load a car to something like its capacity in either length of weight. Many armored vehicles were heavy enough to require either “single” loading or a vary heavy duty flatcar (100-tons plus). An ordinary truck, like an M-35 “Deuce and a Half”, could easily be loaded two to a car.

Of course, it they only had one to ship, it’d be on one car.

Today the Dept of Defense (DODX) has a lot of very heavy 6-axle flatcars. These routinely carry two M-1 Abrams tanks (which weigh around 70 tons each, so that’s 140 tons per car).

In WWII an M4 Sherman tank only weighed about 32 tons, so two could be carried on one 70-ton flatcar.

I just finished doing an HO model of an M-48 Patton tank (~55 tons) on an older U.S. Army 6-axle flat. The car has a 100 ton capacity.

Just FYI. The old ROCO 6-axle flats are BOTH 1960’s vintage U.S. Army prototypes. The regular flatcar was for general use. The depressed-center flat is the transport carrier for the M-103 Heavy Tank (though it may well have been used for other things too).

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Feb 3, 2019, at 3:14 PM, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io <prrk41361=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Years ago after seeing a photo of military truck load in either the RPC article on loads or in an article, I picked up a Roco Minitanks M35 to create a load.

Now after thinking about the August 1957 era I Model I’m wondering if a single M35 on a flatcar would be a common load. Did military loads commonly move in singles/separate moves in my era.

I wasn’t around then so hoping for advice.

Brian J. Carlson



Tony Thompson
 

Daniel Mitchell wrote:

Just FYI. The old ROCO 6-axle flats are BOTH 1960’s vintage U.S. Army prototypes. The regular flatcar was for general use. The depressed-center flat is the transport carrier for the M-103 Heavy Tank (though it may well have been used for other things too).
For more about that Roco flat car and its actual origins, you might wish to read my blog post at:

https://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2018/12/upgrading-roco-flat-car-part-3.html

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Thanks Tony!

Your articles do indeed add to my knowledge of these cars. I’ve done many of the same improvements you suggest, but I did not know of the decal set. I’ll have to see if it’s still a available.

I haven’t seen a ROCO-type prototype car in maybe 25-30 years now.

The ROCO-type cars stayed around well into “DODX” days, but the 6-axle cars they mostly use today are longer and have higher capacity. They also have built-in tie-down-anchor tracks running the whole length of the car. In the days of the ROCO car vehicles were mostly blocked to the deck, with lots of lumber and minimal chains and tie-downs. Nowadays they seem to use hardly any blocking, and LOTS of chains … four or more pairs per end. Modern tanks, of course, are twice as heavy as WWII tanks.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Feb 3, 2019, at 4:48 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:

Daniel Mitchell wrote:

Just FYI. The old ROCO 6-axle flats are BOTH 1960’s vintage U.S. Army prototypes. The regular flatcar was for general use. The depressed-center flat is the transport carrier for the M-103 Heavy Tank (though it may well have been used for other things too).

    For more about that Roco flat car and its actual origins, you might wish to read my blog post at:

https://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2018/12/upgrading-roco-flat-car-part-3.html

Tony Thompson             Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705         www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; e-mail, tony@...
Publishers of books on railroad history










Allen Cain
 

Brian,

 

Of course if the tank was too early for your era, could you model one going to the scrap yard?

 

Allen Cain

 


Dave Owens
 

The USAX/DODX cars were built for the Army because the Patton tank family was too heavy for standard railroad flats. The cars operated into the early 90s and some can still be found in MOW service on Amtrak. I caught one a few years ago along the New Haven to  Springfield line in Hartford, Conn.

Jim Eager moved the bolsters on the cars. As built by Roco, they are a little off. Otherwise, the Roco car is a very nice match for the Magor USAX/DODX 38000 series car.

I have about 70 of these cars I've modified and operate as a unit train. It's out of the steam era,, though.

Also, all the references I have seen indicate these cars were painted green.

Here's one that has been restored to its original paint scheme at the Age of  Steam Roundhouse in Sugarcreek, Ohio.

John Frantz, the proprietor of  Mount  Vernon  Shops decals, helped with the  lettering on this  car.

Dave Owens
West Hartford, Conn.





On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:52 PM Allen Cain <Allencaintn@...> wrote:

Brian,

 

Of course if the tank was too early for your era, could you model one going to the scrap yard?

 

Allen Cain

 


George Courtney
 

Most of the National Guard units in my area had retired tanks or artillery pieces.  I wonder if they moved by mostly by rail or totally by truck.

George Courtney


gary laakso
 

Plus, many weapons were exported to allies and, perhaps, one tank was cheaper for parts than components alone were.

Gary Laakso
Northwest of Mike Brock


On Feb 3, 2019, at 3:34 PM, George Courtney via Groups.Io <gsc3@...> wrote:

Most of the National Guard units in my area had retired tanks or artillery pieces.  I wonder if they moved by mostly by rail or totally by truck.

George Courtney


Charles Peck
 

One might think that some seriously obsolete pieces might be getting donated to
a VFW hall or some such.  That would be an individual shipment.
Chuck Peck 

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 6:34 PM George Courtney via Groups.Io <gsc3=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Most of the National Guard units in my area had retired tanks or artillery pieces.  I wonder if they moved by mostly by rail or totally by truck.

George Courtney


Richard Townsend
 

It might be a little misleading to think of the prototypes for the Roco model of the USAX 38000 series as a 60's era car. The prototypes were built in 1953, but of course they were around in the 60's, too. They first appeared in the October 1952 ORER (I understand that sometimes cars appeared in the ORER before they actually were delivered).

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Feb 3, 2019 1:27 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Military loads.

In most cases they load a car to something like its capacity in either length of weight. Many armored vehicles were heavy enough to require either “single” loading or a vary heavy duty flatcar (100-tons plus). An ordinary truck, like an M-35 “Deuce and a Half”, could easily be loaded two to a car.

Of course, it they only had one to ship, it’d be on one car.

Today the Dept of Defense (DODX) has a lot of very heavy 6-axle flatcars. These routinely carry two M-1 Abrams tanks (which weigh around 70 tons each, so that’s 140 tons per car).

In WWII an M4 Sherman tank only weighed about 32 tons, so two could be carried on one 70-ton flatcar.

I just finished doing an HO model of an M-48 Patton tank (~55 tons) on an older U.S. Army 6-axle flat. The car has a 100 ton capacity.

Just FYI. The old ROCO 6-axle flats are BOTH 1960’s vintage U.S. Army prototypes. The regular flatcar was for general use. The depressed-center flat is the transport carrier for the M-103 Heavy Tank (though it may well have been used for other things too).

Dan Mitchell
==========


> On Feb 3, 2019, at 3:14 PM, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io <prrk41361=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
>
> Years ago after seeing a photo of military truck load in either the RPC article on loads or in an article, I picked up a Roco Minitanks M35 to create a load.
>
> Now after thinking about the August 1957 era I Model I’m wondering if a single M35 on a flatcar would be a common load.  Did military loads commonly move in singles/separate moves in my era.
>
> I wasn’t around then so hoping for advice.
>
> Brian J. Carlson
>
>
>




Charlie Vlk
 

All-

If I am not mistaken I saw a couple of the 1953 era cars in back of the AMTRAK ex PRR shop back in 2005 when I was there to take photos for a client.   I believe the car was lettered for AMTRAK and used to haul locomotive components between shops but I haven’t thought about the day for over a decade and could have some of the details wrong.

Charlie Vlk

 


Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

Quite a bit of military railroad equipment was distributed to museums across the country when declared surplus. Attached is what I remember as an ex-military car at the California State Railroad Museum shortly after delivery about 15 years ago. They had another ex-military flat car attached to this one, but it wasn't in a position that allowed photos. Also there that day was an ex-Air Force 40' PS-1 boxcar.

The second photo shows an older ex-military flat car still used in MW service on the Shenandoah Valley Railroad.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 2/4/19 2:23 AM, Charlie Vlk wrote:

All-

If I am not mistaken I saw a couple of the 1953 era cars in back of the AMTRAK ex PRR shop back in 2005 when I was there to take photos for a client.   I believe the car was lettered for AMTRAK and used to haul locomotive components between shops but I haven’t thought about the day for over a decade and could have some of the details wrong.

Charlie Vlk

 



james murrie
 

There are pictures of whole battalions of M-48 tanks of Wisconsin National Guard's 32nd Infantry Division being loaded for transport to Ft. Lewis WA, October 1961 on regular MILW flats; some had 2 per car, some had one.  Pictures were printed in both Railway Age and MILW employee magazines.  Unable to read car numbers, but they were definitely not 100 ton cars.


Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Or a museum, VFW hall, or other display, or being shipped overseas to some friendly 3rd-world army. Many obsolete military vehicles end up in such places. Some (often large groups) are then shipped back to the USA for rebuilding or modernization, then returned to their current owners. Also, commercial weapons dealers buy such for resale, and ship them wherever needed.

As one example …

I’m a crew member on a restored M-18 “Hellcat” tank destroyer. The M-18s were all built by Buick Motors (General Motors) here in Flint, MI. Ours was shipped to Europe in 1944. They ended up in Europe at the end of WWII. Most of the European countries lost all their military equipment during the war. The surplus USA equipment cost more to return to the USA than it was worth, so it was given away to friendly nations to rebuild their armies. Next, our M-18 was shipped back to the USA for rebuilding by a private contractor, then it was shipped back to Europe, and ended up in the Yugoslavian Army. Then, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia descended into civil war in 1991. Our then ancient M-18 found itself back in combat again. Then the United Nations stepped in and removed all their heavy weapons. Six of the M-18s were purchased by a weapons-dealer in Great Britain, and shipped there. Our local (Flint, MI) Sloan Museum got word of it and arranged to have General Motors purchase one for their “Buick Collection”. Buick built no cars in 1944, just Hellcats, so it’s the only "1944 Buick" there is. Anyway, in 2002 it was shipped back to the USA, to Flint, and we spent two years doing a complete restoration of it to running condition. So … it went back and forth across the Atlantic FOUR times, plus a trip to England, and at least four trips to/from several locations in the USA over a 60-year period. LOTS of history for this vehicle, and a LOT of time being moved about. Now it’s back home.


I’d love to do an HO model of a few Hellcats beign shipped out of Buick on the Pere Marquette RR. We have photos of solid trains of them, two to a flat car. Sometimes they were tarped, and at least one was crated (why ?). Unfortunately, despite all the HO military vehicles produced by many manufacturers, and some 3D printed ones, nobody’s yet done a decent M-18. Future project ...

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Feb 3, 2019, at 5:52 PM, Allen Cain <Allencaintn@...> wrote:

Brian,
 
Of course if the tank was too early for your era, could you model one going to the scrap yard?
 
Allen Cain
 


Bruce Smith
 

Dan,

Getting off topic, but a quick response - Trident did an HO scale mixed media resin and photo-etch M-18 Hellcat a number of years ago. I have 2 awaiting construction and loading onto a steam era flat car. I will likely leave them “untarped” as the fighting compartment is quite detailed.

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Feb 4, 2019, at 8:49 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

Or a museum, VFW hall, or other display, or being shipped overseas to some friendly 3rd-world army. Many obsolete military vehicles end up in such places. Some (often large groups) are then shipped back to the USA for rebuilding or modernization, then returned to their current owners. Also, commercial weapons dealers buy such for resale, and ship them wherever needed.

As one example …

I’m a crew member on a restored M-18 “Hellcat” tank destroyer. The M-18s were all built by Buick Motors (General Motors) here in Flint, MI. Ours was shipped to Europe in 1944. They ended up in Europe at the end of WWII. Most of the European countries lost all their military equipment during the war. The surplus USA equipment cost more to return to the USA than it was worth, so it was given away to friendly nations to rebuild their armies. Next, our M-18 was shipped back to the USA for rebuilding by a private contractor, then it was shipped back to Europe, and ended up in the Yugoslavian Army. Then, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia descended into civil war in 1991. Our then ancient M-18 found itself back in combat again. Then the United Nations stepped in and removed all their heavy weapons. Six of the M-18s were purchased by a weapons-dealer in Great Britain, and shipped there. Our local (Flint, MI) Sloan Museum got word of it and arranged to have General Motors purchase one for their “Buick Collection”. Buick built no cars in 1944, just Hellcats, so it’s the only "1944 Buick" there is. Anyway, in 2002 it was shipped back to the USA, to Flint, and we spent two years doing a complete restoration of it to running condition. So … it went back and forth across the Atlantic FOUR times, plus a trip to England, and at least four trips to/from several locations in the USA over a 60-year period. LOTS of history for this vehicle, and a LOT of time being moved about. Now it’s back home.

<M-18 Hellcat - @Back To The Bricks, Flint,MI. - Aug.18,2013 - RMW (edit., tiny).jpg>

I’d love to do an HO model of a few Hellcats beign shipped out of Buick on the Pere Marquette RR. We have photos of solid trains of them, two to a flat car. Sometimes they were tarped, and at least one was crated (why ?). Unfortunately, despite all the HO military vehicles produced by many manufacturers, and some 3D printed ones, nobody’s yet done a decent M-18. Future project ...

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Feb 3, 2019, at 5:52 PM, Allen Cain <Allencaintn@...> wrote:

Brian,
 
Of course if the tank was too early for your era, could you model one going to the scrap yard?
 
Allen Cain
 



Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Indeed Amtrak did end up with some of these. I’d forgotten seeing them in MofW service here in Michigan on Amtrak’s’own section of track (Kalamazoo, MI to Porter, IN, 110 mph).

Dan Mitchell
========== 

On Feb 4, 2019, at 2:23 AM, Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:

All-
If I am not mistaken I saw a couple of the 1953 era cars in back of the AMTRAK ex PRR shop back in 2005 when I was there to take photos for a client.   I believe the car was lettered for AMTRAK and used to haul locomotive components between shops but I haven’t thought about the day for over a decade and could have some of the details wrong.
Charlie Vlk
 


Andy Carlson
 


It has been awhile now, but I was at the Western Pacific Railroad Museum at Portola, California shortly after the 2 donated 3 axle Army flat cars arrived. The museum was excited about having a flat car which, after rails were attached, could go around the country picking up museum applications. I believe this use was accomplished once when the news came that roller bearing conversion trucks could no longer be accepted in interchange. The last I saw of these flat cars was the 3 axle Buckeye pieces in a mill gon loaded with other scrap. Portola has a record of scrapping items after donation. The loss of a rust-free Alco RS3 cemented my quitting the group.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA
_._,_._,_


Bill Welch
 

Ideal Buick for "Road Rage" encounters. . .

Bill Welch


Jim Betz
 

Hi,
  I'm going to take a different tack on this entire thread.  Guys - I am probably
-JUST- as pro-military as most of the people on this list ("above average").  But ...

  As Richard H. would have said and Tony T. has pointed out many times ....
"be careful about what you do/don't put on your layout".  Just because it can
be justified as possible doesn't mean you should be running it regularly.
  I think this 'rule/guideline' applies just as much to military equipment on a
transition era layout as it does to those oddball/"I just love this car" freight
equipment.
  I'm asking "if you have to go to great lengths to justify it"? ... then it probably
doesn't "fit" on your layout for even a third of the sessions on your layout.

  ===> Can you run them every once in a while?  Of course you can.
  ===> Can you apply the "it's my RR" rule?  Of course you can!
  ===> Were they seen on very many trains in the late 40's and later?  No.

  So - IF - you care about prototypical accuracy/believability then you need to
pretty carefully "curb your enthusiasm" ... or acknowledge that "it isn't exactly
prototypical but I'm gonna do it any way".

  Have -I- seen pictures of military loads/equipment from the transition?
Yes, if it is during the war, not many if it is immediately post war (except
for trains directly related to the wind down), and very few if it was 1950 or
later.

  Some obvious exceptions - if your layout has an on layout "industry" that is
military related (base, military dock, etc.).  Or if you are actually modelling
WWII era.

  But you know what - if your layout is based in the "middlee 40's" .... you
can still get away without having -ayny- military loads/cars and it can still
be "prototypically believable".
                                                             - just saying ... Jim B.