Topics

Palace Poultry Car Color


Tim Meyer
 
Edited

Hi All

I am looking for recommendations on the color of the Palace Poultry car colors.

I contacted Kristin Dummler and she informed me that a person approach her after her RPM presentation last October and mention he has the actual Palace car drawings and specifications. But he has not contacted her to provide the information. 

Any help would be appreciated. 

Thanks

Tim Meyer


Brad Andonian
 

Tim,

I have done quite a few of overlands o scale versions.     Most were yellow car sides with red ends and roof.   It appears that Mudd and others lessees used Pullman green and white at times.   I can send images to you at some point.    I added racks and hand painted chickens for a couple car interiors...
The o scale resource magazine has an article I submitted in last summers issue.

Cheers,
Brad Andonian 

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019, 5:39 AM, Tim Meyer <floridatenwheeler@...> wrote:

Hi All

I am looking for recommendations on the color of the Palace Poultry car colors.

I contacted Kristin Dummler and she informed me that a person approach her after her RPM presentation last October and mention he has the actual Palace car drawings and specifications. But they have not contacted her to provide the information. 

Any help would be appreciated. 

Thanks

Tim Meyer 


Tim Meyer
 

Hi Brad

Thank you for the help. You can email me at.

floridatenwheeler at verizon dot net

Tim Meyer 


Jake Schaible
 

As you may know, no PPKX car is known to survive.  So there is a bit of debate on the exact color.  (The sole cackle car existent is a Live Poultry Transport type at the StL MoT.)   

B&W images of PPKX cars (for example, google "PPKX 5065") show the scheme, but I'm not aware of any contemporaneous primary source that details the specific paint used on these cars.  "Home to Roost: The Story of Live Poultry Transit by Rail", by John H. White, Jr. (https://www.jstor.org/stable/3743735) mentions in passing the poultry cars being "yellow" but is unclear who's cars he was talking about and this comes after a passage about the LPT.  

So this may be a case where the best evidence may be old models.  

Ambroid introduced it's shake box kit of the PPKX car "Speedy" in 1961 and apprentice details that the "color scheme was white body, green ends, roof and doors, and black underframe." The car is reviewed in the September, 1961 issue of Model Railroader in the Trade Topics column (p 14) which added the lettering was also green for over the door, and white for the black side of the exposed underframe.  This car was later sold by Northeastern as kit #HS-4.  Some images on line suggest the modeler went with a kelly green, but I think this might be a mistake.  Remember these cars were often placed on express trains, so I have long had a hunch they were more an olive / harriman green to match the train.  

Having said that, I'm aware of an image at CSRM of a PPKX car (https://calisphere.org/item/044134bd1c9508696497bdda52a5359b/) where I would be hard pressed to prove the body was painted anything other than a single color, but does seem to confirm the lettering over the door is darker than the side and the lettering on the side frame is lighter.  

Sorry I could not be more helpful.  

Cheers,

Jake Schaible

 

 


Jake Schaible
 

By the way to clarify the "Mudd" above, names over the doors for the most part does not connote a lessee, but is actually the name given to the car.  There are a few exceptions to this, including a car LPTC 683 named "Goyert & Vogel", an image of which can be seen in Kristin's excellent presentation.  Her presentation also shows an image of Mudd as LPTX 666 as well as enough images to suggest there was considerable variation in even the PPKX & LPTC car paint schemes.    


Douglas Harding
 

Here is a screen capture from Kristen’s PowerPoint, which shows several variations in Poultry Car paint schemes.

The two Poultry Palace cars show a light colored body, one has dark entry and ends, the other has light entry and ends.

 

Like Kristen, I have nothing beyond the John White quote about color.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jake Schaible
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 9:41 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Palace Poultry Car Color

 

As you may know, no PPKX car is known to survive.  So there is a bit of debate on the exact color.  (The sole cackle car existent is a Live Poultry Transport type at the StL MoT.)   

B&W images of PPKX cars (for example, google "PPKX 5065") show the scheme, but I'm not aware of any contemporaneous primary source that details the specific paint used on these cars.  "Home to Roost: The Story of Live Poultry Transit by Rail", by John H. White, Jr. (https://www.jstor.org/stable/3743735) mentions in passing the poultry cars being "yellow" but is unclear who's cars he was talking about and this comes after a passage about the LPT.  

So this may be a case where the best evidence may be old models.  

Ambroid introduced it's shake box kit of the PPKX car "Speedy" in 1961 and apprentice details that the "color scheme was white body, green ends, roof and doors, and black underframe." The car is reviewed in the September, 1961 issue of Model Railroader in the Trade Topics column (p 14) which added the lettering was also green for over the door, and white for the black side of the exposed underframe.  This car was later sold by Northeastern as kit #HS-4.  Some images on line suggest the modeler went with a kelly green, but I think this might be a mistake.  Remember these cars were often placed on express trains, so I have long had a hunch they were more an olive / harriman green to match the train.  

Having said that, I'm aware of an image at CSRM of a PPKX car (https://calisphere.org/item/044134bd1c9508696497bdda52a5359b/) where I would be hard pressed to prove the body was painted anything other than a single color, but does seem to confirm the lettering over the door is darker than the side and the lettering on the side frame is lighter.  

Sorry I could not be more helpful.  

Cheers,

Jake Schaible

 

 


Steve SANDIFER
 

The whole idea of color is very difficult. I doubt that these cars were in passenger trains (brakes, trucks, etc), so Pullman Green does not appeal to me. I do have photos of them in freight trains coupled next to ATSF stock cars, and the tones of the cars are the same.

 

I have photos of LPTCo 257, 409, 475, 507, 683, 866, 1023, 1241, 1642, and 2146 all in service, and they appear pretty uniform in tone throughout.

My factory publicity photos of LPTCo 666, 677, 732, 1181, and 1566 all appear to be two tone.

This leads me to conjecture that advertising photos show the cars painted in at least two colors to emphasize the intricacy of construction, which would be difficult to see without contrasting paint. This is the same reason we see other types of freight cars in publicity photos in what appears to be unusual or reverse paint schemes.

 

Another example is my publicity photo of PPKX 5065 which has dark ends and messenger compartment while the cages and trusses are very light. The publicity photo of 5131  is the opposite with light ends, roof, sill, and messenger compartment while the interior is dark.  The first has white lettering, the second has black lettering. My in service photos of PPKX 5195 and 5559 show them to be uniformly painted in a neutral color so that the sill lettering is white and the name over the messenger door is a bit darker and hard to read. Special painting for publicity photos would explain this variation.

 

Could the cars have simply been some shade of box car red with white lettering and golden name over the door? Maybe the folks in St. Louis can scratch through what little paint is left on the PPKX 5568 and discover an original paint color. Of course there is that photo which has been circulated of the Pacific Wholesale Poultry car from Petaluma, CA. It appears to be MOW silver in that photo.

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 4:41 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Palace Poultry Car Color

 

Here is a screen capture from Kristen’s PowerPoint, which shows several variations in Poultry Car paint schemes.

The two Poultry Palace cars show a light colored body, one has dark entry and ends, the other has light entry and ends.

 

Like Kristen, I have nothing beyond the John White quote about color.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jake Schaible
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 9:41 AM
To:
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Palace Poultry Car Color

 

As you may know, no PPKX car is known to survive.  So there is a bit of debate on the exact color  (The sole cackle car existent is a Live Poultry Transport type at the StL MoT.)   

B&W images of PPKX cars (for example, google "PPKX 5065") show the scheme, but I'm not aware of any contemporaneous primary source that details the specific paint used on these cars.  "Home to Roost: The Story of Live Poultry Transit by Rail", by John H. White, Jr. (https://www.jstor.org/stable/3743735) mentions in passing the poultry cars being "yellow" but is unclear who's cars he was talking about and this comes after a passage about the LPT.  

So this may be a case where the best evidence may be old models.  

Ambroid introduced it's shake box kit of the PPKX car "Speedy" in 1961 and apprentice details that the "color scheme was white body, green ends, roof and doors, and black underframe." The car is reviewed in the September, 1961 issue of Model Railroader in the Trade Topics column (p 14) which added the lettering was also green for over the door, and white for the black side of the exposed underframe.  This car was later sold by Northeastern as kit #HS-4.  Some images on line suggest the modeler went with a kelly green, but I think this might be a mistake.  Remember these cars were often placed on express trains, so I have long had a hunch they were more an olive / harriman green to match the train.  

Having said that, I'm aware of an image at CSRM of a PPKX car (https://calisphere.org/item/044134bd1c9508696497bdda52a5359b/) where I would be hard pressed to prove the body was painted anything other than a single color, but does seem to confirm the lettering over the door is darker than the side and the lettering on the side frame is lighter.  

Sorry I could not be more helpful.  

Cheers,

Jake Schaible

 

 


Dennis Storzek
 

Orthochromatic film would also explain this and it was still in use during the twenties. It did not capture yellow or orange well, rendering them a dark graytone. I've seen several Orthochromatic photos of Soo Line refers (which were the standard freight car red with orange sides) and they look completely FC red with no lettering other than the herald , which was white. The black lettering just blends into the sides, which look the same color as the ends. 

Dennis Storzek


Jake Schaible
 

>Maybe the folks in St. Louis can scratch through what little paint is left on the PPKX 5568 

Been there.  Done that.

Only thing for sure I could confirm from my hour with that car is that the underframe and trucks were once painted black with a white / light lettering, and the interior was once white with a dark gray / black lettering.  The car sides have a light powdery “chalky" residue. But I was unable to locate any "chips" of paint on the ends or sides.  Perhaps they have already collected such in the years since they got her in 1986, or can find such by removal of parts. 


Tim Meyer
 

I have the builders photos for PPKX 5065. I have played around with putting green on the dark areas and then converting it back to black and white. I am thinking the dark color could be green.


gary laakso
 

The Catenary Video “Western Pacific” includes a short section of film taken on the streets of Oakland, California and the Palace Poultry Car is a very dark color, I assume black with the cage material a much lighter color.

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jake Schaible
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2019 10:05 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Palace Poultry Car Color

 

>Maybe the folks in St. Louis can scratch through what little paint is left on the PPKX 5568 

Been there.  Done that.

Only thing for sure I could confirm from my hour with that car is that the underframe and trucks were once painted black with a white / light lettering, and the interior was once white with a dark gray / black lettering.  The car sides have a light powdery “chalky" residue. But I was unable to locate any "chips" of paint on the ends or sides.  Perhaps they have already collected such in the years since they got her in 1986, or can find such by removal of parts. 


Tim O'Connor
 


My Dad built the Ambroid poultry car in the 1960's and painted it white and green.

Tim O'Connor



On 2/27/2019 6:21 AM, Tim Meyer wrote:
I have the builders photos for PPKX 5065. I have played around with putting green on the dark areas and then converting it back to black and white. I am thinking the dark color could be green.

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Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts