Topics

Unidentified deep well flatcar

Donald B. Valentine
 

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  



Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller. 

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  




Bill Daniels
 

Actually, Dan, there WAS a vessel designed and built to contain a nuclear bomb... strange as it may seem. Frankly, when I first read about it, I didn’t think it would work, and apparently it was never tested. It was written up a few years ago, when a lot of information from the Manhattan Project was declassified. It was designed to withstand the pressure of the explosion, however I believe that the extreme temperature of even the small yield A-Bomb of the day combined with the pressure would have overwhelmed the “containment” vessel. This photo may well have been of it. Additionally It does not look like any of the reactor vessels I am familiar with... there are no inlet and outlets for the primary coolant.

Bill Daniels
San Anselmo, California


On Mar 11, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller. 

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  




Don Burn
 

Bill,

Actually the container was designed to retain the nuclear material if the regular explosive went off but the bomb did not detonate. My father was a military officer assigned to the project, so I have read a lot of about the effort.

Don Burn

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Daniels via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 9:36 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Unidentified deep well flatcar

Actually, Dan, there WAS a vessel designed and built to contain a nuclear bomb... strange as it may seem. Frankly, when I first read about it, I didn’t think it would work, and apparently it was never tested. It was written up a few years ago, when a lot of information from the Manhattan Project was declassified. It was designed to withstand the pressure of the explosion, however I believe that the extreme temperature of even the small yield A-Bomb of the day combined with the pressure would have overwhelmed the “containment” vessel. This photo may well have been of it. Additionally It does not look like any of the reactor vessels I am familiar with... there are no inlet and outlets for the primary coolant.

Bill Daniels
San Anselmo, California



On Mar 11, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@... <mailto:danmitch@...> > wrote:



Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller.

Dan Mitchell
==========


On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt=yahoo.com@groups.io <mailto:riverman_vt=yahoo.com@groups.io> > wrote:

Hi folks,

Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine





<https://www.history-a2z.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/88912/c2d1e97a969b5788b99e55499d81fff7_fcb10f1d502cc09de6c1cab9f428f18e_Trinity_15184771366633.jpg>

Jeff
 

That's Jumbo, a large metal casing (214 tons) that was designed to hold the Gadget. The idea was that if the TNT exploded but the plutonium didn't, it would contain the explosion and no plutonium would be lost.

They didn't use it, but it survived intact 800 yards from the detonation. They later blew the ends off with eight 500lb bombs. I've been to Trinity, it is still there.


On Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 06:22 Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:
Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller. 

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  




Bill Daniels
 

Thanks, Don for that clarification. It makes more sense than a containment vessel for the explosion.

Bill

On Mar 11, 2019, at 6:41 AM, Don Burn <burn@...> wrote:

Bill,

Actually the container was designed to retain the nuclear material if the regular explosive went off but the bomb did not detonate. My father was a military officer assigned to the project, so I have read a lot of about the effort.

Don Burn


-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Daniels via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 9:36 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Unidentified deep well flatcar

Actually, Dan, there WAS a vessel designed and built to contain a nuclear bomb... strange as it may seem. Frankly, when I first read about it, I didn’t think it would work, and apparently it was never tested. It was written up a few years ago, when a lot of information from the Manhattan Project was declassified. It was designed to withstand the pressure of the explosion, however I believe that the extreme temperature of even the small yield A-Bomb of the day combined with the pressure would have overwhelmed the “containment” vessel. This photo may well have been of it. Additionally It does not look like any of the reactor vessels I am familiar with... there are no inlet and outlets for the primary coolant.

Bill Daniels
San Anselmo, California



On Mar 11, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@... <mailto:danmitch@...> > wrote:



Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller.

Dan Mitchell
==========


On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt=yahoo.com@groups.io <mailto:riverman_vt=yahoo.com@groups.io> > wrote:

Hi folks,

Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine





<https://www.history-a2z.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/88912/c2d1e97a969b5788b99e55499d81fff7_fcb10f1d502cc09de6c1cab9f428f18e_Trinity_15184771366633.jpg>






Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Such vessels, including the shell for the “gadget”, were to contain the explosive force of the conventional explosives (TNT, whatever, used to compress the nuclear core material) … should the expected atomic reaction NOT take place. Once the real nuclear reaction actually occurs everything nearby is VAPORIZED. There’s no containing it.

I agree that the pictured item is a strange vessel, but it’s true structure cannot be seen here. We only see one side of it. There’s some kind of shell surrounding the vessel that does not look like it’s part of the actual device. A shipping jacket? Note that it’s being prepared to ROLL off the flatcar. The jacket protects the actual vessel during the roll. The bolted “cap” on the left side is mostly a lifting lug, so I expect that would be replaced with a different one when the device was assembled for use.

Whatever, it’s NOT a power reactor, so may not have needed any external cooling loop. LOTS of small reactors just operated in a big water bath. There were also lots of non-critical reactions to be studied.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Mar 11, 2019, at 9:35 AM, Bill Daniels via Groups.Io <billinsf@...> wrote:

Actually, Dan, there WAS a vessel designed and built to contain a nuclear bomb... strange as it may seem. Frankly, when I first read about it, I didn’t think it would work, and apparently it was never tested. It was written up a few years ago, when a lot of information from the Manhattan Project was declassified. It was designed to withstand the pressure of the explosion, however I believe that the extreme temperature of even the small yield A-Bomb of the day combined with the pressure would have overwhelmed the “containment” vessel. This photo may well have been of it. Additionally It does not look like any of the reactor vessels I am familiar with... there are no inlet and outlets for the primary coolant.

Bill Daniels
San Anselmo, California


On Mar 11, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller. 

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  





Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Makes sense. It’s not the gadget, and there’s no containing the actual nuclear explosion IF it occurs].

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Mar 11, 2019, at 9:44 AM, Jeff <jeffshultz@...> wrote:

That's Jumbo, a large metal casing (214 tons) that was designed to hold the Gadget. The idea was that if the TNT exploded but the plutonium didn't, it would contain the explosion and no plutonium would be lost.

They didn't use it, but it survived intact 800 yards from the detonation. They later blew the ends off with eight 500lb bombs. I've been to Trinity, it is still there.


On Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 06:22 Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:
Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller. 

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  







Tim O'Connor
 


I think this is a photo from Hannaford, Washington, and not from Los Alamos.

It's probably a reactor vessel of some kind.



On 3/11/2019 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  





--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Paul Doggett
 

First A bomb 
Paul Doggett    England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 
image1.jpeg


On 11 Mar 2019, at 14:54, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I think this is a photo from Hannaford, Washington, and not from Los Alamos.

It's probably a reactor vessel of some kind.



On 3/11/2019 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  





--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

John Moore
 


The photo was taken at Pope, New Mexico, during the unloading of Jumbo.  Pope is on the Santa Fe line from Albuquerque to El Paso. 
okladivjohn@...

Stic Harris
 

Some more information and pictures (including a steam era freight car).  : )


On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 12:18 PM John Moore via Groups.Io <okladivjohn=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

The photo was taken at Pope, New Mexico, during the unloading of Jumbo.  Pope is on the Santa Fe line from Albuquerque to El Paso. 
okladivjohn@...



--


- Stic

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

IIRC Newport News. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Mar 11, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  



BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

They were going to explode the gadget inside that so if it were a dud, they could recover the hideously valuable plutonium. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:22 AM, Daniel A. Mitchell <danmitch@...> wrote:

Whatever it is, it’s NOT “the gadget”, the first A-bomb. It’s too large, and altogether the wrong shape. It looks like a pressure vessel, possibly a reactor containment vessel. "The Gadget” was assembled at Los Alamos, and detonated nearby. There are photos of it being hauled around by truck. The shell of it may have been shipped in by rail, but THIS is not that. There’s not much point in putting a pressure vessel around an A-bomb. Does it say WHERE the photo was taken. Hanford, WA, maybe?

As for nuclear bombs, they have to be moved "somehow”. Nobody but the government knows for sure. For years it’s been assumed the infamous “DOD white train” is used for this … nowadays mostly hauling ICBMs and warheads about. There are a lot fewer of them today than at the peak of the cold war. The missiles are also much smaller. 

Dan Mitchell
==========
On Mar 11, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io <riverman_vt@...> wrote:

Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  




Jack Mullen
 

CISX 500, a 250 ton car owned by Carnegie-Illinois Steel Co. And yes, that's Jumbo.
We discussed this a few years back. Check the archives.
Jack Mullen

Bill Daniels
 

No, Tim. It’s not a reactor vessel. I’ve seen a lot of RV’s over the years and this is not one.

Bill Daniels


On Mar 11, 2019, at 7:54 AM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


I think this is a photo from Hannaford, Washington, and not from Los Alamos.

It's probably a reactor vessel of some kind.



On 3/11/2019 8:17 AM, Donald B. Valentine via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi folks,

   Does anyone have any idea of what railroad owned the deep well flatcar in the photo attached
that the first A-bomb was being unloaded from in the desert? This is from recently released CIA
documents. Then, too, it could have been government owned. Presume such things are still
shipped in a similar manner. Just as long as they are not armed!

Cordially, Don Valentine

  





--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Hugh Guillaume
 

Last summer I bought a book at White Sands N.M. about the Manhattan Project.  The story of transporting Jumbo is well-documented in that book.  Book is at home, I am in FL, so I can't provide title.  I also bought am excellent book there about Oppenheimer.  H.T. Guillaume

BRIAN PAUL EHNI
 

That’s right; I was wrong about Newport News. 

Thanks!
Brian Ehni 
(Sent from my iPhone)

On Mar 11, 2019, at 12:36 PM, Jack Mullen <jack.f.mullen@...> wrote:

CISX 500, a 250 ton car owned by Carnegie-Illinois Steel Co. And yes, that's Jumbo.
We discussed this a few years back. Check the archives.
Jack Mullen

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Yes, THAT’s “The Gadget”. It’s far smaller than the huge “Jumbo” containment vessel that started this thread.

As preciously mentioned, “The Gadget” was to have been placed inside “Jumbo”, to contain the nuclear components (Plutonium) if the chain reaction failed to ignite, and just the conventional explosives went off. Plutonium is **NASTY** stuff!

However, that was not carried out. The Gadget was successfully detonated as shown in this photo, without containment, atop a 100 ft. tower.

Interestingly, The Gadget was a Plutonium bomb. The scientists were less sure that it would work, hence the test. The first A-bomb actually used in combat, “Little Boy” at Hiroshima, was a Uranium bomb. The mechanics of the two types of bombs were quite different. Those in charge were sufficiently confident in the Uranium bomb to use it without a test. A few days later an operational Plutonium bomb, “Fat Man” was dropped on Nagasaki.

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Mar 11, 2019, at 11:24 AM, Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:

First A bomb 
Paul Doggett    England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 
<image1.jpeg>

Spen Kellogg <spninetynine@...>
 

On 3/11/2019 2:20 PM, Daniel A. Mitchell wrote:
Yes, THAT’s “The Gadget”. It’s far smaller than the huge “Jumbo”
containment vessel that started this thread.

As preciously mentioned, “The Gadget” was to have been placed inside
“Jumbo”, to contain the nuclear components (Plutonium) if the chain
reaction failed to ignite, and just the conventional explosives went
off. Plutonium is **NASTY** stuff!

However, that was not carried out. The Gadget was successfully
detonated as shown in this photo, without containment, atop a 100 ft.
tower.

Interestingly, The Gadget was a Plutonium bomb. The scientists were
less sure that it would work, hence the test. The first A-bomb
actually used in combat, “Little Boy” at Hiroshima, was a Uranium
bomb. The mechanics of the two types of bombs were quite different.
Those in charge were sufficiently confident in the Uranium bomb to use
it without a test. A few days later an operational Plutonium bomb,
“Fat Man” was dropped on Nagasaki.
And missed its target, the Mitsubishi shipyards, by about five miles,
detonating over a section of Nagasaki that housed a Christian community.
You can still see the headstones and angels in the cemetery, most of
them headless, that were near the explosion.

Spen Kellogg