NKP Consist
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While going thru some NKP docs I found the attached NKP consist from 1957. A lot of meat as expected. Routings are shown too. All sort of neat stuff, including dog food in reefers. May the discussion commence.
Brian J Carlson, P.E. Cheektowaga NY 14227
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Gary Roe
Brian, I am curious as to why the 4 Erie cars near the rear of the train were shown as "A" cars. I looked them up in the ORER, and they are box cars. Other box cars are shown as "B" cars. I saw no Flat cars in the consist, and only 1 Gondola. Very interesting info! gary roe quincy, illinois
On Monday, March 11, 2019 11:55:38 AM CDT, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io <prrk41361@...> wrote:
While going thru some NKP docs I found the attached NKP consist from 1957. A lot of meat as expected. Routings are shown too. All sort of neat stuff, including dog food in reefers. May the discussion commence. Brian J Carlson, P.E. Cheektowaga NY 14227
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Dave Nelson
In other wheel reports I’ve seen the A signified auto car. Is that the case here?
Dave Nelson
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gary Roe
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 1:06 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NKP Consist
Brian,
I am curious as to why the 4 Erie cars near the rear of the train were shown as "A" cars. I looked them up in the ORER, and they are box cars. Other box cars are shown as "B" cars.
I saw no Flat cars in the consist, and only 1 Gondola. Very interesting info!
gary roe quincy, illinois
On Monday, March 11, 2019 11:55:38 AM CDT, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io <prrk41361@...> wrote:
While going thru some NKP docs I found the attached NKP consist from 1957. A lot of meat as expected. Routings are shown too. All sort of neat stuff, including dog food in reefers. May the discussion commence.
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Allen Rueter
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On Monday, March 11, 2019, 15:05, Gary Roe <wabashrr@...> wrote:
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William Hirt
I showed the consist doc to several people today. One repeated question was the cars that showed SKINS as their contents. One suggestion was the load was to be used as sausage casings and another suggestion was to make pork rinds (assuming the load was pork skins). Both cars were going to Stoneham MA on the B&M. Anyone have more insight into this?
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Bill Hirt
On 3/11/2019 11:55 AM, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io wrote:
While going thru some NKP docs I found the attached NKP consist from 1957. A lot of meat as expected. Routings are shown too. All sort of neat stuff, including dog food in reefers. May the discussion commence.
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Schleigh Mike
Hello Bill & Group! I also wondered about "Skins" having done talks on "hides" and the cars that carried them. Both the cars in Brian's NKP list are meat reefers. I think the assumption of something maybe edible and needing refrigeration is possibly correct. Note that the loads are 25-30% of capacity so these cars are not heavily loaded. Sausage is squeezed into '"casings" and my dictionaries do not list "skins" as an alternative. I have not seen skins as an alternative to hides loaded into now-otherwise-useless boxcars. (They get pretty smelly in this service.) BUT--for all references I ever saw, I assumed the hides were COW hides. What about lamb, sheep, goats, and perhaps hogs? We usually call their hides, skins. Perhaps these reefers carried such skins to be tanned at Stoneham, Mass. Did Stoneham have a B&M served tannery or a sausage factory in 1957? Reefers also carried hides. I have seen waybill evidence of this use for reefers but it was uncommon. Mike Schleigh in Grove City, Penna. where the spring's initial growth of skunk cabbage has appeared.
On Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 8:50:25 PM EDT, William Hirt <whirt@...> wrote:
I showed the consist doc to several people today. One repeated question was the cars that showed SKINS as their contents. One suggestion was the load was to be used as sausage casings and another suggestion was to make pork rinds (assuming the load was pork skins). Both cars were going to Stoneham MA on the B&M. Anyone have more insight into this? Bill Hirt On 3/11/2019 11:55 AM, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io wrote: > While going thru some NKP docs I found the attached NKP consist from > 1957. A lot of meat as expected. Routings are shown too. All sort of > neat stuff, including dog food in reefers. May the discussion commence. > > Brian J Carlson, P.E. > Cheektowaga NY 14227
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We've been discussing this on the North Shore club list. Stoneham and many other towns in Massachusetts had shoe factories, including nationally famous brands. There were also many tanneries. Someone said the animal hides/skins came in by SHIP from overseas, and the B&M transported them from the port of Boston to Stoneham and other towns in single sheathed box cars that were used exclusively for that traffic. You don't WANT to know how they were packed in the ships' holds. OMG! Tim O'
On 3/12/2019 9:23 PM, Schleigh Mike via
Groups.Io wrote:
--
Tim O'Connor Sterling, Massachusetts
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mark_landgraf
Skins might be beef Hides. It was relatively common to ship green (not tanned) beef hides that would be turned into leather. They were usually shipped hand stacked in boxcars. It was a relatively common commodity in eastern NY and New England
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Mark Landgraf
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I too wondered about “skins”. The skins are in reefers, whereas the hides are in boxcars. Indicating the skins needed to be preserved with refrigeration. Could the skins be fur bearing pelts? Not just sheep skins, but rabbit skins, mink skins, raccoon skins, etc. used to create fur coats and the like. I once visited a fur buying operation, he had a large refrigerated room where he skinned the fur bearing animals to preserve the pelts until they could be tanned.
TRAX 12436 containing SKINS, is a reefer leased to Armour. The TRAX reefers were built by ART in 1954, attached is a photo of another car in the series taken by Jim Sands from my collection. ARL 1860 containing FRZN SKINS, is also a reefer leased to Armour, attached is a photo of ARLX 1900.
As the reefers in question are leased by a meat packer, they may not be fur bearing pelts. More likely sheep skins.
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Schleigh Mike via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2019 8:24 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NKP Consist
Hello Bill & Group!
I also wondered about "Skins" having done talks on "hides" and the cars that carried them. Both the cars in Brian's NKP list are meat reefers. I think the assumption of something maybe edible and needing refrigeration is possibly correct. Note that the loads are 25-30% of capacity so these cars are not heavily loaded. Sausage is squeezed into '"casings" and my dictionaries do not list "skins" as an alternative. I have not seen skins as an alternative to hides loaded into now-otherwise-useless boxcars. (They get pretty smelly in this service.) BUT--for all references I ever saw, I assumed the hides were COW hides. What about lamb, sheep, goats, and perhaps hogs? We usually call their hides, skins. Perhaps these reefers carried such skins to be tanned at Stoneham, Mass. Did Stoneham have a B&M served tannery or a sausage factory in 1957?
Reefers also carried hides. I have seen waybill evidence of this use for reefers but it was uncommon.
Mike Schleigh in Grove City, Penna. where the spring's initial growth of skunk cabbage has appeared.
On Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 8:50:25 PM EDT, William Hirt <whirt@...> wrote:
I showed the consist doc to several people today. One repeated question
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Schuyler Larrabee
I shared the list with my model RR club list, and asked specifically about the two cars with skins. The North Shore club (www.nsmrc.org )is in Wakefield MA, next to Stoneham. The guys were able to establish that by 1950, the dozens of shoe manufacturers in the area were down to three in Stoneham. It's likely that those "skins" were on their way to becoming shoes.
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ARL is the reporting mark on one of the cars - the FRZN one, IIRC. That is Armour Refrigerator Lines. Makes a lot of sense; once they got the meat out, they would have a lot of skins to ship out, and have the cars to send them in. The other car has reporting marks TRAX, which I have not had time to look up yet. I wondered if Brian has any information that would explain the numbers in the left-most column. I don't think they are "Kind of Car," as it says at the top. Are those numerical designations of interchange points? I am quite curious where the substantial number of cars that are to go to the ERIE were going to be interchanged. Binghamton, would be my best guess, but there were options. What can you tell us, Brian? Schuyler
-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of William Hirt Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2019 8:50 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NKP Consist I showed the consist doc to several people today. One repeated question was the cars that showed SKINS as their contents. One suggestion was the load was to be used as sausage casings and another suggestion was to make pork rinds (assuming the load was pork skins). Both cars were going to Stoneham MA on the B&M. Anyone have more insight into this? Bill Hirt On 3/11/2019 11:55 AM, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io wrote: While going thru some NKP docs I found the attached NKP consist from
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Jeffrey White
This probably isn’t what’s in the reefer in question but my friend who’s layout I operate on is a retired railroader, IC, Big Four, PC and Conrail. He worked in the St Louis area and he talks about handling reefers loaded with hog pancreases from National Stockyards in National City (the stockyards were between East St Louis and Brooklyn, IL and were incorporated as a city) to Eli Lily for the production of insulin.
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Jeff White Alma, IL Sent from EarthLink Mobile mail
On 3/12/19, 23:00, Douglas Harding <doug.harding@iowacentralrr.org> wrote:
From: Douglas Harding <doug.harding@iowacentralrr.org> To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [RealSTMFC] NKP Consist Date: March 12, 2019 at 23:00:26 CDT I too wondered about “skins”. The skins are in reefers, whereas the hides are in boxcars. Indicating the skins needed to be preserved with refrigeration. Could the skins be fur bearing pelts? Not just sheep skins, but rabbit skins, mink skins, raccoon skins, etc. used to create fur coats and the like. I once visited a fur buying operation, he had a large refrigerated room where he skinned the fur bearing animals to preserve the pelts until they could be tanned. TRAX 12436 containing SKINS, is a reefer leased to Armour. The TRAX reefers were built by ART in 1954, attached is a photo of another car in the series taken by Jim Sands from my collection. ARL 1860 containing FRZN SKINS, is also a reefer leased to Armour, attached is a photo of ARLX 1900. As the reefers in question are leased by a meat packer, they may not be fur bearing pelts. More likely sheep skins. Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Schleigh Mike via Groups.Io Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2019 8:24 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NKP Consist Hello Bill & Group! I also wondered about "Skins" having done talks on "hides" and the cars that carried them. Both the cars in Brian's NKP list are meat reefers. I think the assumption of something maybe edible and needing refrigeration is possibly correct. Note that the loads are 25-30% of capacity so these cars are not heavily loaded. Sausage is squeezed into '"casings" and my dictionaries do not list "skins" as an alternative. I have not seen skins as an alternative to hides loaded into now-otherwise-useless boxcars. (They get pretty smelly in this service.) BUT--for all references I ever saw, I assumed the hides were COW hides. What about lamb, sheep, goats, and perhaps hogs? We usually call their hides, skins. Perhaps these reefers carried such skins to be tanned at Stoneham, Mass. Did Stoneham have a B&M served tannery or a sausage factory in 1957? Reefers also carried hides. I have seen waybill evidence of this use for reefers but it was uncommon. Mike Schleigh in Grove City, Penna. where the spring's initial growth of skunk cabbage has appeared. On Tuesday, March 12, 2019, 8:50:25 PM EDT, William Hirt <whirt@fastmail.com> wrote: I showed the consist doc to several people today. One repeated question was the cars that showed SKINS as their contents. One suggestion was the load was to be used as sausage casings and another suggestion was to make pork rinds (assuming the load was pork skins). Both cars were going to Stoneham MA on the B&M. Anyone have more insight into this? Bill Hirt On 3/11/2019 11:55 AM, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io wrote: > While going thru some NKP docs I found the attached NKP consist from > 1957. A lot of meat as expected. Routings are shown too. All sort of > neat stuff, including dog food in reefers. May the discussion commence. > > Brian J Carlson, P.E. > Cheektowaga NY 14227
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Jack Mullen
Schuyler and group,
Assuming the "SKINS" are destined for shoemaking, I'd bet on pigskin. The numbers in column A are station numbers. They appear to be the originating point on NKP. The more frequent ones are 2446, Madison IL and 1416 Peoria IL. The NKP Historical Society has a 1950s list of stations online, which I used. Thanks, NKP folks! The interchange points for cars destined offline are in column E: 1090 Lima OH, and 0 Buffalo. Haven't looked up the others yet. I'm a bit puzzled by your mention of Binghamton. Jack Mullen
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Walter
Someone thought the percentages shown in the right column for the two cars was for
weight limit. The tonnage column shows 55 and 45 tons. If someone has a copy of the National Perishable Protective Tariff for that time frame, I would be curious as to how much salt was specified. The citrus fruit has 3 or 4 percent salt added if I recall. Lenny Ohrnell
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Todd Sullivan
Hi Jack, Binghamton was home to Endicott-Johnson, a shoe manufacturing company that employed about 25,000 people at its height and consumed tons of hides. The Erie RR tracks through neighboring Johnson City and Endicott were lined with E-J factory buildings, and even today in that area, any name that has 'E' and 'J' in it probably was associated with the company, e.g., the EnJoy Country Club. Ever heard of Ena-Jetic Shoes? That was an E-J brand. There's lots more to the E-J story. George F. Johnson, E-J's leader for many years, had a policy of respecting people, which helped grow the company and the region. His "Square Deal" (a fair day's pay for a fair day's work) helped FDR create his "New Deal", and many of Johnson's ethics and policies were adopted by IBM's Thomas J. Watson Sr. E-J workers who came from all over Europe would send money to their families back home so they could come to Binghamton and get jobs at E-J. Immigrant families would arrive in New York and the only English they know was "Which way E-J?" The Binghamton area today is still shows much more hospitality and respect to people than any other area in the Northeastern U.S. that I have experienced, and one's ethnic and cultural background is to be celebrated rather than be a reason to compete. Todd Sullivan.
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William Hirt
Lenny,
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Here is the excerpt from National Perishable Protective Tariff #11 from 1941 about salting normal refrigerator cars: (F) Shipper must specify in writing on shipping order and bill of lading salting service desired, as provided in this rule, using the appropriate, "Shipper's Instructions" as shown below, and Agent must waybill accordingly: (a) Salt Service with Standard Refrigeration Service: 1-"...% salt supplied with initial icing. No further salting." 2-". . .%salt supplied with initial icing. Supply % salt at all regular icing stations." 3-"...% salt supplied with initial icing. Supply same percentage salt at (Specify regular icing station). No further salting." 4- "Supply . . .% salt at (Insert first reicing station) on basis bunker capacity of car and at all reicing stations thereafter ... % salt on basis amount ice supplied . ' 5-"No salt supplied with initial icing. Supply. . .% salt at (Specify regular icing station) on basis bunker capacity of car. No further salting." 6-"No salt supplied with initial icing. Supply. . .% salt at (Specify regular icing station) on basis bunker capacity of car and at (Specify regular icing station) on basis amount ice supplied. No further salting." 7-"100 pounds salt supplied with initial icing. Supply pounds (Specify 75 lbs. or less) of salt at each regular icing station in transit." Exception.—Not applicable on traffic covered by paragraph G-9. 8-"No salt supplied with initial icing. Supply 100 pounds salt at (Specify regular icing station) and pounds (Specify 75 lbs. or less) of salt at each regular icing station in transit." Exception.—Not applicable on traffic covered by paragraph G-9. 9-Applies only as provided in sub-paragraph 9 of paragraph G.—"Supply. . . .pounds of salt at origin and. . . . pounds at all regular icing stations." Note.—-One of instructions provided above for supplying salt on basis of percentage of ice supplied may be given in addition to this instruction. 10-Applies only as provided in sub-paragraph 9 of paragraph G.—"Supply. . . .pounds of salt at (Specify origin and /or one or more regular icing stations and quantity} of salt to be supplied at each)." Note.—One of instructions provided above for supplying salt on basis of percentage of ice supplied may be given in addition to this instruction. So it seems like the shipper specified the amount of salt as there was a charge for salt each time it was done. Is this different than when you worked for Western Fruit Express? Bill Hirt
On 3/13/2019 9:44 AM, Walter wrote:
National Perishable Protective Tariff
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Jerome (Jerry) Albin
List,
Wilson & Co.(United Products and Organic Chemicals Div.) had a gelatin plant on the border of Calumet City, ILL and Hammond, IN. It received pigskins, at one point, in refrigerator cars and produced, of course, gelatin, #1 & #2 pigskin grease and “pigskins”. The plant was switched by the IHB. The plant is still there and has changed hands 2 or 3 times and still produces the above products and some new ones. Eastman Kodak, Swift & co. and others also had gelatin plants using pigskins as raw material. Regards...Jerry Albin
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I'll try to respond to several questions in one email.
Schuyler the interchange point is column E. The Empty Erie Auto boxcars came off at Lima. Much of the Train would be interchanged at Buffalo. The MB-98 was due in Buffalo by 11:30 am every day. Anything that made it to Buffalo for the Erie would be sent to East Buffalo. I am not familiar with the numbers in the 1st column. Station number of the origin points sound right. I need to look these up. (I have the resource "Someplace") MB-98 was a fast freight so the low number of empty's is not surprising. The 4 Erie boxcars were probably in Auto Parts. What is interesting is the large block being dropped at Lima for the Erie. Included in the block are several cars going to Buffalo and points east that could have been routed over the NKP to Buffalo. This shows the shipper controlled the routing. I'm really interested in ARLX 1225 for Warren PA. This car is not going to Buffalo (0) it's going to 87 I need to look this up. The likely place is Erie but a second class train would be unlikely to stop there to drop one car. I will be turning the consist into a short article for the NKPHTS so I am saving all the replies for future use. I may also look at modeling all the cars for the NKPHTS Modelers Notebook, our online Ezine. (I am not even an NKP modeler but I like freight cars.) Brian J Carlson, P.E. Cheektowaga NY
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Jack Mullen
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 10:41 AM, Brian Carlson wrote:
I'm really interested in ARLX 1225 for Warren PA. This car is not going to Buffalo (0) it's going to 87 I need to look this up. The likely place is Erie but a second class train would be unlikely to stop there to drop one car.Yeah, the 9 cars at the bottom of the consist (presumably head end) are a bit puzzling to me. The 7xxx station numbers are W&LE destinations, so I suppose will be dropped at Bellevue, or maybe Lorain - I haven't looked at where they go on the Wheeling. That leaves shorts for 184 Cleveland, 102 Wallace Jct/ BLE, and 87 Erie / PRR. Like you, I don't think a thru freight is going to be making individual setouts, so I'm guessing they get dropped somewhere to go on a local. I know zilch about NKP ops, so hopefully this will provoke somebody with better knowledge to chime in. Jack
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William Hirt
On 3/13/2019 12:41 PM, Brian Carlson via Groups.Io wrote:
I am not familiar with the numbers in the 1st column. Station number of the origin points sound right. I need to look these up. (I have the resource "Someplace")If you can not find it, I downloaded the PDF file from NKP Historical Society site today. The station numbers are in a booklet called Officers, Agents, Stations etc 1951. 87 is shown to be Erie PA. Would it not be too surprising this train stopped at Bellevue, Ohio, the main NKP system yard, to be re-blocked or combined with a train originating from Chicago? There then could be a whole block for Erie then. The Sanborn maps show a Armour branch house on the NYC in Warren, PA. Bill Hirt
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ARLX 1225 contains PHP, packing house products, with a note DNI, which I think stands for Do Not Ice. PHP could be meat, meat by-products, meat scraps, canned meat, organs, items destined for human consumption or items destined for non-edible. The DNI could mean the load did not need cooling or that had sufficient ice to get to its destination and the shipper did not want to pay for unnecessary ice. Nice photo of an Armour Steel sided reefer 1900, which may be the same series, on Tony’s blog http://modelingthesp.blogspot.com/2013/05/modeling-meat-reefers-armour-steel-cars.html
Intermountain did an HO model lettered for ARLX 1225 https://www.walthers.com/r-40-23-steel-ice-reefer-ready-to-run-armour-arlx-yellow-boxcar-red-red
Doug Harding www.iowacentralrr.org
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Carlson via Groups.Io
I'll try to respond to several questions in one email.
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