Topics

modeling a crane question


Doug Forbes
 

I have a few questions as to modeling a railroad crane/wrecker but I wanted to first make sure that this topic is appropriate for this group as its now a freight car per se.  Would someone give me a thumbs up or thumbs down before I proceed with my questions?


Jack Burgess
 

I seem to recall that we concluded earlier and M of W and cabooses were okay. But someone else might remember differently…

 

Jack

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Doug Forbes
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2019 7:06 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] modeling a crane question

 

I have a few questions as to modeling a railroad crane/wrecker but I wanted to first make sure that this topic is appropriate for this group as its now a freight car per se.  Would someone give me a thumbs up or thumbs down before I proceed with my questions?


John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
 

Doug,

There may have been a discussion here about allowing cranes and such here as Jack references, but I don’t recall it.

That doesn’t mean a darn thing as I don’t recall what I had for breakfast…… or if I had breakfast.

But, as usual, I do have an opinion. Of course, if there has been a hard rule made against it, I stand very much corrected.

To my way of thinking, MOW equipment should be included here. Yes, they are not revenue producing freight cars, but they are carriers of freight necessary for to the railroad’s operation.

Nit-pickers beware; I can get my back up and raise cane (My hurricane that is) if I hear all about the used passenger cars in company service or how a caboose doesn’t haul freight. Well, in MOW service, many a caboose did haul freight and, back in the day, I’d dare you to show me a freight train that did not need a caboose on it.

Besides I love rr cranes. And that’s my two cents, which is likely more than it’s worth.

John Hagen

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Doug Forbes
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2019 9:06 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] modeling a crane question

 

I have a few questions as to modeling a railroad crane/wrecker but I wanted to first make sure that this topic is appropriate for this group as its now a freight car per se.  Would someone give me a thumbs up or thumbs down before I proceed with my questions?


Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends,

We long ago declared cabooses and MW equipment as valid for discussion, but maybe that was back on the old STMFC. I have a hard time remembering that far back myself, but since I usually eat Cheerios I can remember my breakfast. We also agreed that express boxcars, express reefers and milk cars were also allowed. I can't remember if drovers' cars have ever been discussed, but they are probably o.k. as well. After all, we've spent a great amount of bandwidth on poultry cars, including the attendant's space. That attendant
was just a chicken drover, of a sort.

I would have no problem with passenger cars converted to MW service. That's probably not likely to come up often anyway.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 3/13/19 12:01 PM, John Hagen via Groups.Io wrote:

Doug,

There may have been a discussion here about allowing cranes and such here as Jack references, but I don’t recall it.

That doesn’t mean a darn thing as I don’t recall what I had for breakfast…… or if I had breakfast.

But, as usual, I do have an opinion. Of course, if there has been a hard rule made against it, I stand very much corrected.

To my way of thinking, MOW equipment should be included here. Yes, they are not revenue producing freight cars, but they are carriers of freight necessary for to the railroad’s operation.

Nit-pickers beware; I can get my back up and raise cane (My hurricane that is) if I hear all about the used passenger cars in company service or how a caboose doesn’t haul freight. Well, in MOW service, many a caboose did haul freight and, back in the day, I’d dare you to show me a freight train that did not need a caboose on it.

Besides I love rr cranes. And that’s my two cents, which is likely more than it’s worth.

John Hagen

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Doug Forbes
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2019 9:06 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] modeling a crane question

 

I have a few questions as to modeling a railroad crane/wrecker but I wanted to first make sure that this topic is appropriate for this group as its now a freight car per se.  Would someone give me a thumbs up or thumbs down before I proceed with my questions?



spsalso
 

The search term "crane" produced 457 results.  Among them, some as wreck cranes.

Get on with it!


Ed

Edward Sutorik


Doug Forbes
 

The Illinois Traction had an electric wrecking crane that was used both for wreck jobs as well as digging coal out of the two underwater coal storage pits they had built.  I'm looking for recommendations as to how to model such a thing.  I have looked at commercially available kits.  It seems like the Tichy crane frame might work but that a new cab and boom will need to be scratch built or 3D printed or something.  Thoughts?  Still not sure how one would manage a metal crane boom with an overhead powered wire directly above, seems like an electrifying challenge...



This is from the Illinois Terminal Facebook page. 


From 1916.


 

Funny thing is, if cabooses, cranes, MOW equipment, etc. weren't around regular freight cars would have a VERY HARD TIME MOVING! So yes they definitely need to be discussed here.
Andy Jackson
Santa Fe Springs CA



John Hagen <sprinthag@...>
 

Doug,

Looking at the center photo there something, probably a 2X4 or 4X6, across the top of that “hump” in the boom. While a hunk of wood there would not prevent the boom from touching the overhead, it would insulate it.

John Hagen

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Doug Forbes
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2019 3:31 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] modeling a crane question

 

The Illinois Traction had an electric wrecking crane that was used both for wreck jobs as well as digging coal out of the two underwater coal storage pits they had built.  I'm looking for recommendations as to how to model such a thing.  I have looked at commercially available kits.  It seems like the Tichy crane frame might work but that a new cab and boom will need to be scratch built or 3D printed or something.  Thoughts?  Still not sure how one would manage a metal crane boom with an overhead powered wire directly above, seems like an electrifying challenge...



This is from the Illinois Terminal Facebook page. 


From 1916.


mofwcaboose <MOFWCABOOSE@...>
 

This crane was built by Browning Engineering Company in 1911 as Illinois Traction 830.  Capacity was 43,500 pounds- less than 22 tons. It later became Illinois Terminal 01, as is obvious from the photographs.

The Tichy crane is a 120-tonner and much too large in all dimensions. so that it would be nearly useless as a starting point for a model. 

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Forbes <dforbes@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Mar 13, 2019 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] modeling a crane question

The Illinois Traction had an electric wrecking crane that was used both for wreck jobs as well as digging coal out of the two underwater coal storage pits they had built.  I'm looking for recommendations as to how to model such a thing.  I have looked at commercially available kits.  It seems like the Tichy crane frame might work but that a new cab and boom will need to be scratch built or 3D printed or something.  Thoughts?  Still not sure how one would manage a metal crane boom with an overhead powered wire directly above, seems like an electrifying challenge...



This is from the Illinois Terminal Facebook page. 


From 1916.


David Jobe, Sr.
 

John – Do you happen to have any other information on Browning Engineering and perhaps this crane?  I have not seen anything further in the society’s archives.

 

For those interested, the crane was equipped with a swivel head trolley pole similar to those used on trolley buses.  The first image below shows the way the wheel is mounted at a  near right angle to the pole instead of in line with the pole.  So, in use at the coal pits, the contact wire was suspended to the side of the track rather than over the center line of the track.  In the case of a wreck or other maintenance work, one or two line crews would accompany the crane and temporarily remove the contact wire from the hangers, pull it to one side and rehang it so the crane could still use it for power.

 

Last, the crane had powered trucks and could move on its own.

 

David Jobe, Sr.

Saint Ann, Missouri

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of mofwcaboose via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2019 8:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] modeling a crane question

 

This crane was built by Browning Engineering Company in 1911 as Illinois Traction 830.  Capacity was 43,500 pounds- less than 22 tons. It later became Illinois Terminal 01, as is obvious from the photographs.

 

The Tichy crane is a 120-tonner and much too large in all dimensions. so that it would be nearly useless as a starting point for a model. 

 

John C. La Rue, Jr.

Bonita Springs, FL

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Forbes <dforbes@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Mar 13, 2019 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] modeling a crane question

The Illinois Traction had an electric wrecking crane that was used both for wreck jobs as well as digging coal out of the two underwater coal storage pits they had built.  I'm looking for recommendations as to how to model such a thing.  I have looked at commercially available kits.  It seems like the Tichy crane frame might work but that a new cab and boom will need to be scratch built or 3D printed or something.  Thoughts?  Still not sure how one would manage a metal crane boom with an overhead powered wire directly above, seems like an electrifying challenge...



This is from the Illinois Terminal Facebook page. 


From 1916.


Patrick Wade
 

For those wanting more info on the Browning Engineering Co, Google: Browning Engineering, Cleveland Memory Project.

Pat Wade
Santa Barbara, CA

On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 6:07 PM mofwcaboose via Groups.Io <MOFWCABOOSE=AOL.COM@groups.io> wrote:
This crane was built by Browning Engineering Company in 1911 as Illinois Traction 830.  Capacity was 43,500 pounds- less than 22 tons. It later became Illinois Terminal 01, as is obvious from the photographs.

The Tichy crane is a 120-tonner and much too large in all dimensions. so that it would be nearly useless as a starting point for a model. 

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Forbes <dforbes@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Mar 13, 2019 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] modeling a crane question

The Illinois Traction had an electric wrecking crane that was used both for wreck jobs as well as digging coal out of the two underwater coal storage pits they had built.  I'm looking for recommendations as to how to model such a thing.  I have looked at commercially available kits.  It seems like the Tichy crane frame might work but that a new cab and boom will need to be scratch built or 3D printed or something.  Thoughts?  Still not sure how one would manage a metal crane boom with an overhead powered wire directly above, seems like an electrifying challenge...



This is from the Illinois Terminal Facebook page. 


From 1916.


Doug Forbes
 

Hey John,
Thanks for the information!!!  I googled that and came up with an article from Engineering News from 1913 that shows that the base is 13' 6" long and 9' 10" wide, with a 30' goose-neck boom.  That's not a very big crane.  Quite a unique thing to model.  I think ??? I've attached the article but I'm not sure.  
Would appreciate any scratch building, kitbashing, etc ideas.  Awesome stuff. 
This picture is from another old journal and shows the crane in action with some GB hopper/gondolas I've managed to 3D print. 
 


Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Doug and Friends,

For a kitbash, the most likely candidate would be the Truscale/TM/Walthers diesel crane. I haven't checked with Walthers to see if these are still available, but they are common enough on the used market. The base is about the right size and the floor and boom mounts would probably make a good start. A new cab could be built up. The big problem is the boom, which is unlike anything I've ever seen. I suppose it all depends on how much scratch-building you can do, or how much compromise you will accept.

I had one of these cranes many years ago, and since I was doing a freelance electric line, I mounted a Suydam pole on the roof. Later I steam-ized the cab. It would have looked nice with a small tender attached.

Electric cranes like these were not uncommon on larger electric railroads. Over the years, the Pacific Electric owned at least seven electric cranes, plus one steamer. Most of their cranes had a wooden box added around the end of the boom as an insulator.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff

On 3/13/19 9:07 PM, mofwcaboose via Groups.Io wrote:
This crane was built by Browning Engineering Company in 1911 as Illinois Traction 830.  Capacity was 43,500 pounds- less than 22 tons. It later became Illinois Terminal 01, as is obvious from the photographs.

The Tichy crane is a 120-tonner and much too large in all dimensions. so that it would be nearly useless as a starting point for a model. 

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonita Springs, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Forbes <dforbes@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Mar 13, 2019 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] modeling a crane question

The Illinois Traction had an electric wrecking crane that was used both for wreck jobs as well as digging coal out of the two underwater coal storage pits they had built.  I'm looking for recommendations as to how to model such a thing.  I have looked at commercially available kits.  It seems like the Tichy crane frame might work but that a new cab and boom will need to be scratch built or 3D printed or something.  Thoughts?  Still not sure how one would manage a metal crane boom with an overhead powered wire directly above, seems like an electrifying challenge...



This is from the Illinois Terminal Facebook page. 


From 1916.


Doug Forbes
 

Hey Garth,
Thanks for the idea of that crane.  I hadn't noticed that kit before.  My current plan is to first try and draw on paper a two-dimensional scale sketch using the dimensions in the article and some photos.  From there I will try and find a base to use, maybe the one you suggested.  The boom I think I will try and 3D print using Shapeways, and the cab either kitbash or 3D print.  Should be interesting.  Thanks all for the tips and advice. 


Spen Kellogg <spninetynine@...>
 

On 3/13/2019 10:21 PM, Doug Forbes wrote:
Hey John,
Thanks for the information!!!  I googled that and came up with an
article from Engineering News from 1913 that shows that the base is
13' 6" long and 9' 10" wide, with a 30' goose-neck boom. That's not a
very big crane.  Quite a unique thing to model.  I think ??? I've
attached the article but I'm not sure.
Would appreciate any scratch building, kitbashing, etc ideas. Awesome
stuff.
Doug,

Since the Tichy crane boom is twice the size of the one you want to
model, might there be an N scale crane that could provide a boom close
to what you need? Or possibly a boom from a construction vehicle in HO
or S scale; Herpa comes to mind?

Spen Kellogg


Dennis Storzek
 

Given the capacity the ITS crane is more closely related to what was called a locomotive crane rather than a wrecker. The fooler is the custom boom. I seem to recall that Walthers offered a powered locomotive crane 10 or 12 years ago that might be a good starting point.
Dennis Storzek


Tim O'Connor
 

"Railroad History" #160 (publication of the R&LHS) has a 10 page article on
Santa Fe 120 ton Brownhoist cranes and some comparison with earlier cranes
that some modelers might find useful.

Tim O'Connor

On 3/14/2019 10:33 AM, Spen Kellogg wrote:
On 3/13/2019 10:21 PM, Doug Forbes wrote:
Hey John,
Thanks for the information!!!  I googled that and came up with an
article from Engineering News from 1913 that shows that the base is
13' 6" long and 9' 10" wide, with a 30' goose-neck boom. That's not a
very big crane.  Quite a unique thing to model.  I think ??? I've
attached the article but I'm not sure.
Would appreciate any scratch building, kitbashing, etc ideas. Awesome
stuff.
Doug,

Since the Tichy crane boom is twice the size of the one you want to
model, might there be an N scale crane that could provide a boom close
to what you need? Or possibly a boom from a construction vehicle in HO
or S scale; Herpa comes to mind?

Spen Kellogg
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Friends

I did a bit of digging through Ira Swett's CARS OF PACIFIC ELECTRIC, V.3, and came up with some data that might be of interest to the whole question of ITR 1, and other small cranes.

PE's largest electric crane at 60 tons, their 003, built in 1912 by Industrial Works of Bay City, Michigan. The frame of this crane was 24' 5" over the end plates. Bolster centers were 12' 5" for what appear to be arch bar trucks with a 5' 4" wheelbase. Height to the roof was 14' 7". The crane was originally built with a 40' straight boom, but this required crews to take down the wires where the crane was working. In 1920 a shorter gooseneck boom was substituted, which as I mentioned earlier had a wooden housing over the end as an insulator.  The crane was fed by a standard PE Pole, and had motors on the trucks.

For comparison, PE's other "large" crane was a 20-ton capacity Ohio Locomotive Co. steam-powered Model CD. It's length was 20' 1/2". Truck centers were 11' 7 1/8". Trucks were 5' 1" MCB Radial, whatever that means (I'm thinking an arch bar, but the diagram and photos aren't clear on this). Cab was 11' 1" long, and height at the roof was 13' 11", but there was also a stack which took the total height to 18' 4 1/2". The boom was a 40' latice type, and apparently was never changed to a gooseneck. Yes, it did have a similar insulator wooden box. I believe Lifelike once sold a crane around this size which might supply the frame, cab base and boom.

PE's other cranes were conversions of freight or passenger cars, having a boom mounted on the deck near the car's end, and are not anything like these two machines, or the ITR crane.

A number of general arrangement diagrams for WP cranes are online at https://www.wplives.com/diagrams/mow/1947/index.php . It isn't always clear what the cranes' capacities are, but there is a lot to be learned here that could help with a model.

Have fun!


Garth Groff


John Moore
 

Model Railroader had a two part article on modeling a "30 ton derrick" in Jan and Feb 1956. 

It was similar to the C&IE folio sheet for their 100 ton crane.  

There was also a similar crane on the SP de M ca 1929.

John  B. Moore, Jr.
Albuquerque
--
okladivjohn@...


John Moore
 

Had trouble getting the attachments to the email.  My copy only had one of the C&EI derricks but two showed up.

Just delete if you wich.
--
okladivjohn@...