Topics

B&O C-16 Question


Nelson Moyer
 

I’m building the Sunshine C-16, and I’d like to learn about the box in the upper center of the A end shown in the attached photo. It appears that it’s got an electrical conduit through the end, so it may be either a power receptacle or marker light attachment. The kit instructions make no mention of this fixture, and there is no part resembling the fixture in the kit. Were these fixtures on both ends of the car? I don’t have any other C-16 photos showing the ends. What was the purpose of this fixture?

 

Nelson Moyer


Charles Peck
 

Nelson,
I'm not an expert on the C-16, but I believe that was a passenger equipped
 express car.  Thus, it would be reasonable to expect it to be equipped with
 pass-through electric in case it was between two electrified cars, one of which
needed to be train-lined. 
The train-lining connector plugs were in the vestibule overhead so the cables
could pass through the diaphragm above head height. 
While I would not expect to find an express box between occupied passenger
 cars, it would be possible that a messenger-baggage, RPO, or some such might
 be coupled ahead. 
Chuck Peck 

On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 12:17 PM Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

I’m building the Sunshine C-16, and I’d like to learn about the box in the upper center of the A end shown in the attached photo. It appears that it’s got an electrical conduit through the end, so it may be either a power receptacle or marker light attachment. The kit instructions make no mention of this fixture, and there is no part resembling the fixture in the kit. Were these fixtures on both ends of the car? I don’t have any other C-16 photos showing the ends. What was the purpose of this fixture?

 

Nelson Moyer


Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks, Chuck. Your explanation sounds right, and since it’s a pass-through, the receptacle would be on both ends for cars so equipped.

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Charles Peck
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2019 4:47 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

 

Nelson,

I'm not an expert on the C-16, but I believe that was a passenger equipped

 express car.  Thus, it would be reasonable to expect it to be equipped with

 pass-through electric in case it was between two electrified cars, one of which

needed to be train-lined. 

The train-lining connector plugs were in the vestibule overhead so the cables

could pass through the diaphragm above head height. 

While I would not expect to find an express box between occupied passenger

 cars, it would be possible that a messenger-baggage, RPO, or some such might

 be coupled ahead. 

Chuck Peck 

 

On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 12:17 PM Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

I’m building the Sunshine C-16, and I’d like to learn about the box in the upper center of the A end shown in the attached photo. It appears that it’s got an electrical conduit through the end, so it may be either a power receptacle or marker light attachment. The kit instructions make no mention of this fixture, and there is no part resembling the fixture in the kit. Were these fixtures on both ends of the car? I don’t have any other C-16 photos showing the ends. What was the purpose of this fixture?

 

Nelson Moyer


Bruce Griffin
 

Nelson,

FWIW I can confirm a C-16 was an express car for passenger service and they were coach olive green until early 1947 and then repaints were BandO blue (no gold stripe like other express car classes). 125 M-53 boxcars car were converted to this service in the early 40s. And by 1949 only 25 C-16 were on the roster and only five were blue. Car numbers after 1949 were 1875 to 1899. By 1959, all were converted back to M-53 boxcars. 

Best Regards,
Bruce D. Griffin
Ashland, MD.


Nelson Moyer
 

Thanks, Bruce. How widely did the B&O C-16 cars roam? Were they ever sent to the West Coast, e.g. interchanged in Chicago to the CB&Q or other Midwestern roads with West Coast connections?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffin
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2019 8:46 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

 

Nelson,

FWIW I can confirm a C-16 was an express car for passenger service and they were coach olive green until early 1947 and then repaints were BandO blue (no gold stripe like other express car classes). 125 M-53 boxcars car were converted to this service in the early 40s. And by 1949 only 25 C-16 were on the roster and only five were blue. Car numbers after 1949 were 1875 to 1899. By 1959, all were converted back to M-53 boxcars. 

Best Regards,
Bruce D. Griffin
Ashland, MD.


Chris Van Wagoner
 

I passed you question over to the B&O group and here's the answer:
Having a pass-through electrical circuit for a C-16 express car makes little sense. These cars did not have end doors for access while in a train.  Also, according to their equipment diagram, they had a pass-though steam line, indicating no heat was provided in them. 
 
As such, the cars likely did not go off B&O lines. Interchanged express cars had to have heat and car-end access in a train. Express cars usually had some kind of lighting in them as well, often by means of a terminal connection.
 
These cars were often worked (being loaded and unladed) in dark, covered, terminal areas. The only available light being that of the open side door (no windows),more light would be needed inside the cars, especially at night. So that fixture may have been a provision to power added lights inside the car for express workers, by use of a terminal connection - maybe at 110 volts?. 
 
Nothing is mentioned about interior lights in the C-16 and C-17 diagrams. But the C-15 express car diagram notes 'head end electric' lighting. Car and head-end lighting circuits in the past were often 32 volt systems. 


Nelson Moyer
 

Could C-16 cars have gone off line loaded with storage mail like express boxcars that didn’t have end doors? I need to know that before I add steam and signal lines. If they never went off line, I’ll paint and decal the car for a C-16 returned to M-53 freight service.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Chris Van Wagoner via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2019 2:09 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

 

I passed you question over to the B&O group and here's the answer:

Having a pass-through electrical circuit for a C-16 express car makes little sense. These cars did not have end doors for access while in a train.  Also, according to their equipment diagram, they had a pass-though steam line, indicating no heat was provided in them. 

 

As such, the cars likely did not go off B&O lines. Interchanged express cars had to have heat and car-end access in a train. Express cars usually had some kind of lighting in them as well, often by means of a terminal connection.

 

These cars were often worked (being loaded and unladed) in dark, covered, terminal areas. The only available light being that of the open side door (no windows),more light would be needed inside the cars, especially at night. So that fixture may have been a provision to power added lights inside the car for express workers, by use of a terminal connection - maybe at 110 volts?. 

 

Nothing is mentioned about interior lights in the C-16 and C-17 diagrams. But the C-15 express car diagram notes 'head end electric' lighting. Car and head-end lighting circuits in the past were often 32 volt systems. 


Claus Schlund \(HGM\)
 


Hi Chris and List Members,
 
Chris quoted the following: "As such, the cars likely did not go off B&O lines. Interchanged express cars had to have heat and car-end access in a train"
 
The PRR express X29 cars did not have heat nor car-end access, and they were interchanged EVERYWHERE in the nation as express cars on passenger trains.
 
Sorry, but basically the above quote does not hold water.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2019 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

I passed you question over to the B&O group and here's the answer:
Having a pass-through electrical circuit for a C-16 express car makes little sense. These cars did not have end doors for access while in a train.  Also, according to their equipment diagram, they had a pass-though steam line, indicating no heat was provided in them. 
 
As such, the cars likely did not go off B&O lines. Interchanged express cars had to have heat and car-end access in a train. Express cars usually had some kind of lighting in them as well, often by means of a terminal connection.
 
These cars were often worked (being loaded and unladed) in dark, covered, terminal areas. The only available light being that of the open side door (no windows),more light would be needed inside the cars, especially at night. So that fixture may have been a provision to power added lights inside the car for express workers, by use of a terminal connection - maybe at 110 volts?. 
 
Nothing is mentioned about interior lights in the C-16 and C-17 diagrams. But the C-15 express car diagram notes 'head end electric' lighting. Car and head-end lighting circuits in the past were often 32 volt systems. 


Tony Thompson
 

I agree with Claus. Most railroads rostered express box cars, AAR Class BX, and all were as  Claus described for the X29.
Tony Thompson 


On May 7, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Claus Schlund &#92;(HGM&#92;) <claus@...> wrote:

Hi Chris and List Members,
 
Chris quoted the following: "As such, the cars likely did not go off B&O lines. Interchanged express cars had to have heat and car-end access in a train"
 
The PRR express X29 cars did not have heat nor car-end access, and they were interchanged EVERYWHERE in the nation as express cars on passenger trains.
 
Sorry, but basically the above quote does not hold water.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2019 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

I passed you question over to the B&O group and here's the answer:
Having a pass-through electrical circuit for a C-16 express car makes little sense. These cars did not have end doors for access while in a train.  Also, according to their equipment diagram, they had a pass-though steam line, indicating no heat was provided in them. 
 
As such, the cars likely did not go off B&O lines. Interchanged express cars had to have heat and car-end access in a train. Express cars usually had some kind of lighting in them as well, often by means of a terminal connection.
 
These cars were often worked (being loaded and unladed) in dark, covered, terminal areas. The only available light being that of the open side door (no windows),more light would be needed inside the cars, especially at night. So that fixture may have been a provision to power added lights inside the car for express workers, by use of a terminal connection - maybe at 110 volts?. 
 
Nothing is mentioned about interior lights in the C-16 and C-17 diagrams. But the C-15 express car diagram notes 'head end electric' lighting. Car and head-end lighting circuits in the past were often 32 volt systems. 


Matthew Hurst
 

Hello Claus and all,

To piggyback onto Claus's statement:

The PRR's REA X29s went everywhere. They were equipped with air,steam and signal lines just like the B&O's C17 cars. Also the B&O cars DID go offline. I have seen them show up on the CNJ, Reading and all the way out west on the UNION PACIFIC. So.......

Just saying 

Matthew Hurst


On May 7, 2019, at 9:10 AM, "Claus Schlund \(HGM\)" <claus@...> wrote:

Hi Chris and List Members,
 
Chris quoted the following: "As such, the cars likely did not go off B&O lines. Interchanged express cars had to have heat and car-end access in a train"
 
The PRR express X29 cars did not have heat nor car-end access, and they were interchanged EVERYWHERE in the nation as express cars on passenger trains.
 
Sorry, but basically the above quote does not hold water.
 
Claus Schlund
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2019 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

I passed you question over to the B&O group and here's the answer:
Having a pass-through electrical circuit for a C-16 express car makes little sense. These cars did not have end doors for access while in a train.  Also, according to their equipment diagram, they had a pass-though steam line, indicating no heat was provided in them. 
 
As such, the cars likely did not go off B&O lines. Interchanged express cars had to have heat and car-end access in a train. Express cars usually had some kind of lighting in them as well, often by means of a terminal connection.
 
These cars were often worked (being loaded and unladed) in dark, covered, terminal areas. The only available light being that of the open side door (no windows),more light would be needed inside the cars, especially at night. So that fixture may have been a provision to power added lights inside the car for express workers, by use of a terminal connection - maybe at 110 volts?. 
 
Nothing is mentioned about interior lights in the C-16 and C-17 diagrams. But the C-15 express car diagram notes 'head end electric' lighting. Car and head-end lighting circuits in the past were often 32 volt systems. 


Nelson Moyer
 

Thank you  Matthew. Now I have justification for including C-16s in CB&Q consists, since the Q interchanged with UP in Omaha.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matthew Hurst
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 8:18 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Cc: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

 

Hello Claus and all,

 

To piggyback onto Claus's statement:

 

The PRR's REA X29s went everywhere. They were equipped with air,steam and signal lines just like the B&O's C17 cars. Also the B&O cars DID go offline. I have seen them show up on the CNJ, Reading and all the way out west on the UNION PACIFIC. So.......

 

Just saying 

 

Matthew Hurst


On May 7, 2019, at 9:10 AM, "Claus Schlund \(HGM\)" <claus@...> wrote:

Hi Chris and List Members,

 

Chris quoted the following: "As such, the cars likely did not go off B&O lines. Interchanged express cars had to have heat and car-end access in a train"

 

The PRR express X29 cars did not have heat nor car-end access, and they were interchanged EVERYWHERE in the nation as express cars on passenger trains.

 

Sorry, but basically the above quote does not hold water.

 

Claus Schlund

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, May 06, 2019 3:08 PM

Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

 

I passed you question over to the B&O group and here's the answer:

Having a pass-through electrical circuit for a C-16 express car makes little sense. These cars did not have end doors for access while in a train.  Also, according to their equipment diagram, they had a pass-though steam line, indicating no heat was provided in them. 

 

As such, the cars likely did not go off B&O lines. Interchanged express cars had to have heat and car-end access in a train. Express cars usually had some kind of lighting in them as well, often by means of a terminal connection.

 

These cars were often worked (being loaded and unladed) in dark, covered, terminal areas. The only available light being that of the open side door (no windows),more light would be needed inside the cars, especially at night. So that fixture may have been a provision to power added lights inside the car for express workers, by use of a terminal connection - maybe at 110 volts?. 

 

Nothing is mentioned about interior lights in the C-16 and C-17 diagrams. But the C-15 express car diagram notes 'head end electric' lighting. Car and head-end lighting circuits in the past were often 32 volt systems. 


Matthew Hurst
 

You are welcome Nelson.  Anything I can do to help anyone grow there rolling stock fleet!

Of course you will NEED some PRR X29s in REA service, in your consists as well. I know I need a CB&Q car in at least one of my REA/express trains on the PRR.

Also, I have also seen Seaboard REA cars show up in CB&Q trains as well. 

Who says these cars didn't get around?!?!?!?!

Matthew Hurst



On May 7, 2019, at 7:47 PM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:


Thank you  Matthew. Now I have justification for including C-16s in CB&Q consists, since the Q interchanged with UP in Omaha.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matthew Hurst
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 8:18 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Cc: <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

 

Hello Claus and all,

 

To piggyback onto Claus's statement:

 

The PRR's REA X29s went everywhere. They were equipped with air,steam and signal lines just like the B&O's C17 cars. Also the B&O cars DID go offline. I have seen them show up on the CNJ, Reading and all the way out west on the UNION PACIFIC. So.......

 

Just saying 

 

Matthew Hurst


On May 7, 2019, at 9:10 AM, "Claus Schlund \(HGM\)" <claus@...> wrote:

Hi Chris and List Members,

 

Chris quoted the following: "As such, the cars likely did not go off B&O lines. Interchanged express cars had to have heat and car-end access in a train"

 

The PRR express X29 cars did not have heat nor car-end access, and they were interchanged EVERYWHERE in the nation as express cars on passenger trains.

 

Sorry, but basically the above quote does not hold water.

 

Claus Schlund

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, May 06, 2019 3:08 PM

Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

 

I passed you question over to the B&O group and here's the answer:

Having a pass-through electrical circuit for a C-16 express car makes little sense. These cars did not have end doors for access while in a train.  Also, according to their equipment diagram, they had a pass-though steam line, indicating no heat was provided in them. 

 

As such, the cars likely did not go off B&O lines. Interchanged express cars had to have heat and car-end access in a train. Express cars usually had some kind of lighting in them as well, often by means of a terminal connection.

 

These cars were often worked (being loaded and unladed) in dark, covered, terminal areas. The only available light being that of the open side door (no windows),more light would be needed inside the cars, especially at night. So that fixture may have been a provision to power added lights inside the car for express workers, by use of a terminal connection - maybe at 110 volts?. 

 

Nothing is mentioned about interior lights in the C-16 and C-17 diagrams. But the C-15 express car diagram notes 'head end electric' lighting. Car and head-end lighting circuits in the past were often 32 volt systems. 


Nelson Moyer
 

Depending on the year(s) you model, the Walthers P2K 12 panel 50 foot boxcar is a dead ringer for CB&Q XM-33 express boxcars. I bought four lettered for SP, stripped and repainted them Pullman green, decaled them with gold lettering, replaced the flimsy plastic sill steps with YMW etched sill steps, and installed Athearn Allied trucks to make four XM-33 express boxcars.

 

As for the X29s, I have pre-ordered six Red Caboose undecorated kits, some of which will be painted and lettered for freight service and some for express service. I know about the NYC, PRR, and C&O cars in Q trains, but I didn’t know about SAL.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matthew Hurst
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 7:04 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

 

You are welcome Nelson.  Anything I can do to help anyone grow there rolling stock fleet!

Of course you will NEED some PRR X29s in REA service, in your consists as well. I know I need a CB&Q car in at least one of my REA/express trains on the PRR.

Also, I have also seen Seaboard REA cars show up in CB&Q trains as well. 

Who says these cars didn't get around?!?!?!?!

 


Matthew Hurst
 

I am modeling October 1946- April 1947.  I think the XM-33 would work for my time period. They also had marker light brackets on them to...didn't they?

I'll shoot you some photos of the PRR X29s I did up for REA service.  I built 12 and have 2 more to finish....Yeah I'm nuts!  But the PRR ran REA trains with blocks of X29s....sometimes numbering 10-15 in one train! Needless to say...very interesting seeing passenger power pulling a pseudo freight train!

Matthew Hurst


On Tue, May 7, 2019, 9:26 PM Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

Depending on the year(s) you model, the Walthers P2K 12 panel 50 foot boxcar is a dead ringer for CB&Q XM-33 express boxcars. I bought four lettered for SP, stripped and repainted them Pullman green, decaled them with gold lettering, replaced the flimsy plastic sill steps with YMW etched sill steps, and installed Athearn Allied trucks to make four XM-33 express boxcars.

 

As for the X29s, I have pre-ordered six Red Caboose undecorated kits, some of which will be painted and lettered for freight service and some for express service. I know about the NYC, PRR, and C&O cars in Q trains, but I didn’t know about SAL.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matthew Hurst
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 7:04 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

 

You are welcome Nelson.  Anything I can do to help anyone grow there rolling stock fleet!

Of course you will NEED some PRR X29s in REA service, in your consists as well. I know I need a CB&Q car in at least one of my REA/express trains on the PRR.

Also, I have also seen Seaboard REA cars show up in CB&Q trains as well. 

Who says these cars didn't get around?!?!?!?!

 


Nelson Moyer
 

Yes, but the Custom Finishing (B-179) bracket used by some modelers is no longer available unless you find one in a hobby shop somewhere. It wasn’t correct for the Q, anyway, so the only option  now is to scatchbuild them. Here’s the basic data.

 

RPC Volume 6, p. 12

Burlington Bulletin No. 7

 

XM-33

 

50 ft. single door boxcars built in 1941

8500-8549

Allied trucks

50 operational in 1952

Painted Pullman green with white lettering in 1944

Fitted with steam, air, signal hoses to run in passenger trains

Wood running boards

Dreadnaught ends

Murphy rectangular panel roof

Camel corrugated 8 ft. doors

Straight side sills

 

As you can see, I misspoke re gold lettering. I was thinking of the converted troop kitchens (also from Walthers) that I’m working on to convert open window versions into CB&Q BE-1s. That entailed casting new ends and roof modifications. Walthers offered both the open window and plated window versions, but the open window was the original version with diaphragms. The Q removed the diaphragms, and plated the end windows, while leaving the side windows open for a few years before plating them over as well. Both plated and open ran in 1953. You could add a Q troop kitchen, since they traveled widely in storage mail service, mostly catalogs, colanders, magazines, etc.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matthew Hurst
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 9:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

 

I am modeling October 1946- April 1947.  I think the XM-33 would work for my time period. They also had marker light brackets on them to...didn't they?

 

I'll shoot you some photos of the PRR X29s I did up for REA service.  I built 12 and have 2 more to finish....Yeah I'm nuts!  But the PRR ran REA trains with blocks of X29s....sometimes numbering 10-15 in one train! Needless to say...very interesting seeing passenger power pulling a pseudo freight train!

 

Matthew Hurst

On Tue, May 7, 2019, 9:26 PM Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

Depending on the year(s) you model, the Walthers P2K 12 panel 50 foot boxcar is a dead ringer for CB&Q XM-33 express boxcars. I bought four lettered for SP, stripped and repainted them Pullman green, decaled them with gold lettering, replaced the flimsy plastic sill steps with YMW etched sill steps, and installed Athearn Allied trucks to make four XM-33 express boxcars.

 

As for the X29s, I have pre-ordered six Red Caboose undecorated kits, some of which will be painted and lettered for freight service and some for express service. I know about the NYC, PRR, and C&O cars in Q trains, but I didn’t know about SAL.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matthew Hurst
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 7:04 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] B&O C-16 Question

 

You are welcome Nelson.  Anything I can do to help anyone grow there rolling stock fleet!

Of course you will NEED some PRR X29s in REA service, in your consists as well. I know I need a CB&Q car in at least one of my REA/express trains on the PRR.

Also, I have also seen Seaboard REA cars show up in CB&Q trains as well. 

Who says these cars didn't get around?!?!?!?!