Topics

ex-ATSF Class Fe-13 Auto Boxcars on the StJ&LC (was There were not a lot of 50 foot boxcars around in 1929)

Benjamin Hom
 

Don Valentine asked:
"Speaking of early 50 ft. cars I'll bring this type up at least one of which ended up here in Vermont on our little St. Johnsbury & Lamoille County RR. This was a 50 ft., single sheathed ex-Santa Fe car that had the heaviest cast underframe I can ever recall seeing. It is that underframe that makes it stick in my mind because there were hollowed out places within it to account for the pivot of the trucks on sharp curves. I have no idea when it was constructed or by whom and, unfortunately, never got a photo of the one that sat just east of the Eastern States Farmers Exchange building for some years in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Does anyone know more about it from this meager description?"

Not single-sheathed cars, but ATSF Class Fe-13 rebuilt double-sheathed automobile boxcars.  I'm away from my references and won't be able to follow up until tonight, but another list member might be able to pull info from their copy of Santa Fe Furniture & Automobile Boxcars before then.


Ben Hom


Benjamin Hom
 

Don Valentine asked:
"Speaking of early 50 ft. cars I'll bring this type up at least one of which ended up here in Vermont on our little St. Johnsbury & Lamoille County RR. This was a 50 ft., single sheathed ex-Santa Fe car that had the heaviest cast underframe I can ever recall seeing. It is that underframe that makes it stick in my mind because there were hollowed out places within it to account for the pivot of the trucks on sharp curves. I have no idea when it was constructed or by whom and, unfortunately, never got a photo of the one that sat just east of the Eastern States Farmers Exchange building for some years in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Does anyone know more about it from this meager description?"

StJ&LC also had secondhand 50 ft SS automobile boxcars. These had fishbelly sidesill reinforcements at the door opening, but are definitely not the same as the massive underframes on the ex-ATSF automobile boxcars.  I believe you conflated the features of the two series of cars.

My gut feeling is that these are ex-CB&Q, but I'll leave it to their experts on the list to confirm.


Ben Hom


Eric Lombard
 

Hello Don and Ben,

The SJL cars have a meandering history starting for some in 1909. It was fun to pull this together.

SJL 3000-3063  4 deep fishbelly sills in underframe. 
  • 1909, 1910, 1912 -- 1500 cars. as ATSF Fe-K, Fe-M wood-sheathed.
  • 1936-1937 -- 1309 cars rebuilt to steel sheathing, ends, roof, into several classes, mismatched ends, and some with auto end doors.
  • 1955 -- 200 (approx: 130 Fe-13; 24 Fe-08; 22 Fe-09; 24 Fe-11) renumbered to DT&I 16000-16199. 
  • 1956 -- 64, DT&I 16200-16263, keeping same serials, rebuilt by DT&I to IH 10-3 and unusual side door pattern. Equipment diagram indicates in Note 2: "car sides are not symmetrical - in  that doors on left side are closer to car CL by 3'-0 1/2". The diagram clearly shows the asymmetry. The effect is to shift the door opening one side sheet to the  right on the left side of the car resulting in a different side sheet pattern on the right and left sides:
right | : : : [ | ] : : : : : : |A-end,  
left   | : : : : [ | ] : : : : : |A-end  
  • ~1960-1961 all 64 to  SJL 3000-3063.

1960(10)   Not listed in ORER.
1959-1962 the underframes turn 50 years old.
196x  64  RENO from DT&I 16200-16263
1961(7)  64  listed in ORER.
1962(1)  64
1969-1972  Underframes turn 60 years old.  
1969(4)  40  (9 cars with hatches in roof, mechanical class LC)
1970(1)  31  (9 cars with hatches in roof, mechanical class LC)
1972(1)    8  (1 car with hatches in roof, mechanical class LC)


On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 8:49 AM Benjamin Hom <b.hom@...> wrote:
Don Valentine asked:
"Speaking of early 50 ft. cars I'll bring this type up at least one of which ended up here in Vermont on our little St. Johnsbury & Lamoille County RR. This was a 50 ft., single sheathed ex-Santa Fe car that had the heaviest cast underframe I can ever recall seeing. It is that underframe that makes it stick in my mind because there were hollowed out places within it to account for the pivot of the trucks on sharp curves. I have no idea when it was constructed or by whom and, unfortunately, never got a photo of the one that sat just east of the Eastern States Farmers Exchange building for some years in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Does anyone know more about it from this meager description?"

Not single-sheathed cars, but ATSF Class Fe-13 rebuilt double-sheathed automobile boxcars.  I'm away from my references and won't be able to follow up until tonight, but another list member might be able to pull info from their copy of Santa Fe Furniture & Automobile Boxcars before then.


Ben Hom


Scott
 

Ben,

My guess for the cars in your reply would be Rock Island.  Maybe Steve Hile can weigh in on them.

Scott McDonald

Donald B. Valentine
 

Thank you Ben,

    Learning that these cars were rebuilt from double sheathed cars makes snese and probably should have been though of
on my part before. As a double sheathed car the reason for the underframe being so heavy becomes apparent even if it looks
like they went overboard on this group! Does anyone know when tey were rebuilt, when the went to the DT&I and when and
how many went to the St. J. & L.C.? None are listed inn the Oct 1976 ORER, the latest one I have, but #3043 and #3052 are
listed in the Jan. 1973 issue when Sam Pinsly still owned the St. J. There were 64 cars of the same description, #3000 -
#3063 listed in the Jan. 1962 ORER when Sam Pinsly's cousin H.E. Salzberg owned the St. J. so it appears they must has
been purchased around that time. That surprises me, however, as I was here attending college at that time, saw a St. J. train almost every week day, often road the switcher from Morrisville to the talc mill in Johnson or just road while the talc mill was being switched out and have no recollection of ever seeing any of these cars then, only the converted single sheathed, open top box cars
then used for limestone loading in Swanton for shipment to paper mills in Maine that the low sided Maine Central #17,000 series gondolas had been used for in steam days.

Cordially, Don Valentine

Benjamin Hom
 

Don Valentine asked:
"Does anyone know when they were rebuilt, when they went to the DT&I and when and how many went to the St. J. & L.C.?"

See Eric Lombard's nice summary posted earlier today at 1:49 PM.


Ben Hom


Steve and Barb Hile
 

I can't say for sure, but the single sheathed cars do look like Rock Island series 264000 - 264149 built by Standard Steel Car company in 1930.  In 1946, 54 of these cars had their roofs raised by 6 inches.  About the same time, the Rock Island was using a lot of plywood for replacement sheathing.  The RI sold a lot of equipment to the Salzberg lines in the 50's and 60's.  So all the circumstances are there.
 
Steve Hile



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2019 2:34 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ex-ATSF Class Fe-13 Auto Boxcars on the StJ&LC (was There were not a lot of 50 foot boxcars around in 1929)

Ben,

My guess for the cars in your reply would be Rock Island.  Maybe Steve Hile can weigh in on them.

Scott McDonald

Donald B. Valentine
 

    A large thank you to all who responded to my questions about the ex-Santa Fe, ex-DT&L cars some of which
ultimately ended upo here on the St. Johnsbury & Lamoille County RR. It has been a good learning experience,
especially to find that Sunshine actually offered a kit for these oddballs. Now to find one at an affordable price.

Thank you again everyone, Don Valentine

Scott
 

Don, 

Looks like Westerfield is going to do some Santa Fe FE cars.  Here is a part of the email they just sent out.

We are working on AT&SF Fe type furniture car Kits now.
Next are some C&NW SS boxcars.
We are also in the process of developing a new website - more later.
 Scott McDonald

Donald B. Valentine
 

Thanks Scott. It's hard to believe they are calling the Fe's "Furniture Cars". with an underframe like the one I remember
here had I'll bet you could carry a pair of Abrams tanks on them if you could fit them through the doors! It will be good to
see such kits available, especially on a regular basis as opposed to only one short run, which is my one gripe with most
of the resin casters. But this leads to another question. What became of all the masters for the Sunshine Models? some
were made by others for Marty as was the Santa Fe R-11 reefer that Frank Hodina did the masters for, the nicest resin kit,
and best thought out, I have ever assembled. Did those who made such masters get them back, is Patricia sitting on a
lot of usable masters or what happened to them? It is a shame that someone cannot acquire them and offer the Sunshine
Kits again.

Cordially, Don Valentine

charles slater
 

The Santa Fe Fe-13 class cars was produced by Sunshine Models and come up on EBAY from time to time.
Charlie Slater 

Sent from Outlook



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Scott <repairman87@...>
Sent: Tuesday, May 7, 2019 6:38 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ex-ATSF Class Fe-13 Auto Boxcars on the StJ&LC (was There were not a lot of 50 foot boxcars around in 1929)
 
Don, 

Looks like Westerfield is going to do some Santa Fe FE cars.  Here is a part of the email they just sent out.

We are working on AT&SF Fe type furniture car Kits now.
Next are some C&NW SS boxcars.
We are also in the process of developing a new website - more later.
 Scott McDonald

Tom Madden
 

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 10:55 AM, Donald B. Valentine wrote:
What became of all the masters for the Sunshine Models?  [snip]  It is a shame that someone cannot acquire them and offer the Sunshine
Kits again.
Original patterns for flat casting can take a real beating so it's really moot where they are now. And in most cases they need to be reworked to bring them up to the detail level we've come to expect today. We've discussed this before - the pattern makers retained the rights to the patterns. Frank Hodina (Resin Car Works) has re-introduced a  number of models formerly offered by Sunshine, but in each case first generation flat resin castings were extensively reworked and redetailed to create new one-piece body patterns. The IC chisel side hopper, GN composite wood sheathed boxcar (patterns by Frank) and Santa Fe Rr-35/36/39/40 reefer (patterns by Charlie Slater) have been reintroduced. Also the 8000 gallon insulated tank car. Sunshine's version was a bear to assemble, so the RCW kit is based on completely new patterns.

Al Westerfield was fortunate to find a capable and competent buyer for his product line in Andrew Dahm. Al was also able to work with Andrew for an extended period of time to get Andrew up to speed. This latter is critically important, and of course it wasn't possible with Sunshine. I think that, as much as anything, is why the Sunshine line wasn't picked up. 

Tom Madden
 

tyesac@aol.com
 

It would be nice if the PDS sheets that came in the Sunshine kits could be offered up for some amount.  They had a wealth of information on those cars he offered kits for.

Tom Casey  
Al Westerfield was fortunate to find a capable and competent buyer for his product line in Andrew Dahm. Al was also able to work with Andrew for an extended period of time to get Andrew up to speed. This latter is critically important, and of course it wasn't possible with Sunshine. I think that, as much as anything, is why the Sunshine line wasn't picked up. 

Tom Madden
 



-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Madden via Groups.Io <pullmanboss@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, May 8, 2019 11:54 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ex-ATSF Class Fe-13 Auto Boxcars on the StJ&LC (was There were not a lot of 50 foot boxcars around in 1929)

On Wed, May 8, 2019 at 10:55 AM, Donald B. Valentine wrote:
What became of all the masters for the Sunshine Models?  [snip]  It is a shame that someone cannot acquire them and offer the Sunshine
Kits again.
Original patterns for flat casting can take a real beating so it's really moot where they are now. And in most cases they need to be reworked to bring them up to the detail level we've come to expect today. We've discussed this before - the pattern makers retained the rights to the patterns. Frank Hodina (Resin Car Works) has re-introduced a  number of models formerly offered by Sunshine, but in each case first generation flat resin castings were extensively reworked and redetailed to create new one-piece body patterns. The IC chisel side hopper, GN composite wood sheathed boxcar (patterns by Frank) and Santa Fe Rr-35/36/39/40 reefer (patterns by Charlie Slater) have been reintroduced. Also the 8000 gallon insulated tank car. Sunshine's version was a bear to assemble, so the RCW kit is based on completely new patterns.

Al Westerfield was fortunate to find a capable and competent buyer for his product line in Andrew Dahm. Al was also able to work with Andrew for an extended period of time to get Andrew up to speed. This latter is critically important, and of course it wasn't possible with Sunshine. I think that, as much as anything, is why the Sunshine line wasn't picked up. 

Tom Madden
 

Tim O'Connor
 


aren't they are available online?


On 5/9/2019 2:54 PM, tyesac@... via Groups.Io wrote:
It would be nice if the PDS sheets that came in the Sunshine kits could be offered up for some amount.  They had a wealth of information on those cars he offered kits for.

Tom Casey  
Al Westerfield was fortunate to find a capable and competent buyer for his product line in Andrew Dahm. Al was also able to work with Andrew for an extended period of time to get Andrew up to speed. This latter is critically important, and of course it wasn't possible with Sunshine. I think that, as much as anything, is why the Sunshine line wasn't picked up. 

Tom Madden


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Brian Carlson
 

Just the order forms on Jim Hayes site afaik. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On May 9, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


aren't they are available online?


On 5/9/2019 2:54 PM, tyesac@... via Groups.Io wrote:
It would be nice if the PDS sheets that came in the Sunshine kits could be offered up for some amount.  They had a wealth of information on those cars he offered kits for.

Tom Casey  
Al Westerfield was fortunate to find a capable and competent buyer for his product line in Andrew Dahm. Al was also able to work with Andrew for an extended period of time to get Andrew up to speed. This latter is critically important, and of course it wasn't possible with Sunshine. I think that, as much as anything, is why the Sunshine line wasn't picked up. 

Tom Madden


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Steve and Barb Hile
 

sales flyers, yes.  PDS sheets, I don't think so.  They generally contain photos that Martin did not have permission to place on-line.
 
Steve



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2019 2:08 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] ex-ATSF Class Fe-13 Auto Boxcars on the StJ&LC (was There were not a lot of 50 foot boxcars around in 1929)


aren't they are available online?


On 5/9/2019 2:54 PM, tyesac@... via Groups.Io wrote:
It would be nice if the PDS sheets that came in the Sunshine kits could be offered up for some amount.  They had a wealth of information on those cars he offered kits for.

Tom Casey  
Al Westerfield was fortunate to find a capable and competent buyer for his product line in Andrew Dahm. Al was also able to work with Andrew for an extended period of time to get Andrew up to speed. This latter is critically important, and of course it wasn't possible with Sunshine. I think that, as much as anything, is why the Sunshine line wasn't picked up. 

Tom Madden


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

mopacfirst
 

Yes, at Sunshinekits.com.  I believe this site is still maintained by Jim Hayes.  I believe it started as a means to provide some on-line information on the products, since Sunshine the manufacturer never did.  It has all the appropriate disclaimers.  There are a few other useful links here.

I still go to this site when I see something on eBay that I might or might not bid on.

Ron Merrick

Brian Carlson
 

Those are just the order forms. The PDS were the multi page docs on slick paper. I’ve saved mine after building kits. They had useful info. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On May 9, 2019, at 3:18 PM, mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:

Yes, at Sunshinekits.com.  I believe this site is still maintained by Jim Hayes.  I believe it started as a means to provide some on-line information on the products, since Sunshine the manufacturer never did.  It has all the appropriate disclaimers.  There are a few other useful links here.

I still go to this site when I see something on eBay that I might or might not bid on.

Ron Merrick

Benjamin Hom
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
"Aren't [Sunshine PDS sheets] available online?"

No.  Only flyers and price lists at Jim Hayes' http://www.sunshinekits.com .


Ben Hom

mopacfirst
 

Yes, I wasn't clear in my reply.  I have to say that, since I hang on to all of my PDS sheets, I wasn't thinking of that.  The main reason I care about the sales sheet is that there's just enough information on them to help me decide if I want to bid on whatever shows up on eBay.  The era of use (all gone by 1956, for instance) is usually on there, and that's the thing I probably care most about, if I didn't already know.

Ron Merrick