Topics

MILW & NP log trains


Doug Paasch
 

I need to model some MILW and NP log cars used in Washington State in the 1940's & 50's time frame. I am having no luck finding any photos of prototype log trains & log cars for either railroad. I did find a diagram of an NP log flat at the NPRHA. It doesn't show how they held the logs on it though, just the flat car itself. And I'd really like to find some photos. These log trains were not logging trains of timber companies, but rather ran in interchange service to log dumps serving mills in Everett & Tacoma. What type of car is appropriate? For example, regular flat cars with stakes? Regular flat cars with log cradles? Skeleton log cars? Any pointers would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Doug Paasch


Allen Montgomery
 

Google image the Camas Prairie Railroad. There's a couple shots of NP log car ops.


Allen Montgomery



On Monday, May 20, 2019, 4:17:22 PM MDT, Doug Paasch <drpaasch@...> wrote:


I need to model some MILW and NP log cars used in Washington State in the 1940's & 50's time frame.  I am having no luck finding any photos of prototype log trains & log cars for either railroad.  I did find a diagram of an NP log flat at the NPRHA.  It doesn't show how they held the logs on it though, just the flat car itself.  And I'd really like to find some photos.  These log trains were not logging trains of timber companies, but rather ran in interchange service to log dumps serving mills in Everett & Tacoma.  What type of car is appropriate?  For example, regular flat cars with stakes?  Regular flat cars with log cradles?  Skeleton log cars?  Any pointers would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Doug Paasch




Todd Sullivan
 

There are several photos in the NP steam loco books by Schrenk and Frey.  Look in the sections on the 2-8-2s with photos in Washington State.  Sorry I can't be more specific - all my books are packed for a move.

Todd Sullivan


John Riddell
 

There are two photos in Warren Wing’s book that show NP hauling log cars.

Northwest Rail Pictorial Vol 1, page 111 shows a 1954 train with 3 steel gons loaded with logs passing through Reservation (Tacoma) .

Northwest Rail Pictorial Vol II, page 100 shows another view of the same log train with a log-bunk flat and a skeleton log car following the 3 loaded steel gons.  John Riddell

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


espee4441
 

I just returned from a weekend in Enumclaw racing my bicycle around the back roads and going over the old MILW row multiple times. I had much time to ponder what the MILW did while riding circles in the hills for three hours. The 410 quarry above town by a few miles has an interesting bridge going over the highway for the MILW, so I was wondering if they mixed in gons/hoppers with the log loads. This thread is perfect timing. Hard to pin down how the tracks made their way through the terrain in that area, it's steep. 

Tony Pawley


np328
 

     Doug, 
        as an NP researcher of about four decades now this is the best advice I can give you: Join the io NP Modelers list and the io Telltale, the io Milwaukee list also and repost your query there. People who model the log service seem to be a specific grouping, just as Narrow Gauge Modelers are. (Caps out of respect.)  And hope for the best. 
 
     Old gons were used, as were old boxcars stripped of about everything above the underframe till only the skeleton remained. What boxcars were chosen for this task? Boxcars that would otherwise have been scrapped. Boxcars from the 1900s to the 1930s. Needless to say, there is not a lot of paperwork found in records I have seen. These would have been decisions made by shops very local to the area. And shop foremen local to the area.
      From what records I have found, series of (very old) cars would be marked for dismantling. From that group, some would be partially dismantled to be log cars. Again, these were local decisions and would be spot decisions. Records would have been kept in the NP Tacoma offices. 
      Of the little paperwork that I have found, it would read from corporate that from old cars to be retired/dismantled at South Tacoma Car shops, local officers should request what they feel are numbers sufficient to handled next years projected needs. And that would be it for a paper trail, at least here in Minnesota at the MNHS regarding corporate records.  
 
     Log cars are best described as the equivalent of hide cars, just in different service. And just like hide cars, a half-life existence where equipment goes to eventually die having cheated death once.      

     Of modeling, you would need gondolas from the above mentioned dates, perhaps like the class of 1923 59000 series. None of any of these earlier gons I am aware are being produced other than (possibly) resin.  And resin would not be too bad as you could warm the resin sides to where the side panels are bulging rather greatly.
       GS gons like Red Caboose or Detail Associates are not completely accurate for NP however are available at Flea markets and other events. And then again, beat the heck out of those modeling wise. Otherwise Accurail gons. Compromises all.   
     Of skeleton cars, good luck. I and (good friend) the late Ed Ursem spent weeks going through files at the MHS as Ed wanted to model the NP's Raymond branch and we found precious little on skeleton flats or disconnects other than some sketches. Certainly nothing that could be turned over to a model mfgr and expect to see a tangible model appear.  

    Of photos, there was (available through the nprha company store) a couple of Mainstreeter magazines that may have photos that covered the area of your interest. The Vol 33-4 issue might have some, there was another issue on the branch that ran out to Raymond, WA however I don't readily recall that issue.  Museum of the Rockies has the Ron Nixon collection on-line and that is searchable.  http://www.morphotoarchive.org/rvndb/    Plenty of photos.  You could look there.        
                                                                                                                                                                            Best of luck,             Jim Dick - St. Paul                                 
 
    


Doug Paasch
 

Thanks all.  You have given me more info than I had before.  I appreciate it.

 

  Doug Paasch

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of np328
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 3:54 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] MILW & NP log trains

 

     Doug, 
        as an NP researcher of about four decades now this is the best advice I can give you: Join the io NP Modelers list and the io Telltale, the io Milwaukee list also and repost your query there. People who model the log service seem to be a specific grouping, just as Narrow Gauge Modelers are. (Caps out of respect.)  And hope for the best. 
 
     Old gons were used, as were old boxcars stripped of about everything above the underframe till only the skeleton remained. What boxcars were chosen for this task? Boxcars that would otherwise have been scrapped. Boxcars from the 1900s to the 1930s. Needless to say, there is not a lot of paperwork found in records I have seen. These would have been decisions made by shops very local to the area. And shop foremen local to the area.
      From what records I have found, series of (very old) cars would be marked for dismantling. From that group, some would be partially dismantled to be log cars. Again, these were local decisions and would be spot decisions. Records would have been kept in the NP Tacoma offices. 
      Of the little paperwork that I have found, it would read from corporate that from old cars to be retired/dismantled at South Tacoma Car shops, local officers should request what they feel are numbers sufficient to handled next years projected needs. And that would be it for a paper trail, at least here in Minnesota at the MNHS regarding corporate records.  
 
     Log cars are best described as the equivalent of hide cars, just in different service. And just like hide cars, a half-life existence where equipment goes to eventually die having cheated death once.      

     Of modeling, you would need gondolas from the above mentioned dates, perhaps like the class of 1923 59000 series. None of any of these earlier gons I am aware are being produced other than (possibly) resin.  And resin would not be too bad as you could warm the resin sides to where the side panels are bulging rather greatly.
       GS gons like Red Caboose or Detail Associates are not completely accurate for NP however are available at Flea markets and other events. And then again, beat the heck out of those modeling wise. Otherwise Accurail gons. Compromises all.   
     Of skeleton cars, good luck. I and (good friend) the late Ed Ursem spent weeks going through files at the MHS as Ed wanted to model the NP's Raymond branch and we found precious little on skeleton flats or disconnects other than some sketches. Certainly nothing that could be turned over to a model mfgr and expect to see a tangible model appear.  

    Of photos, there was (available through the nprha company store) a couple of Mainstreeter magazines that may have photos that covered the area of your interest. The Vol 33-4 issue might have some, there was another issue on the branch that ran out to Raymond, WA however I don't readily recall that issue.  Museum of the Rockies has the Ron Nixon collection on-line and that is searchable.  http://www.morphotoarchive.org/rvndb/    Plenty of photos.  You could look there.        
                                                                                                                                                                            Best of luck,             Jim Dick - St. Paul                                 
 
    


Gene Deimling
 

I might be able to help with some information on NP log cars that were used on branches on the set side of Washington.  I am posting a plan for skeleton cars rebuilt from from steel underframe trussrod boxcars.  The railroad recycled lots of cars to haul logs.  

--
Gene Deimling
El Dorado Hills, CA


brianleppert@att.net
 

In addition to Gene Deimling's post on skeleton log cars, here are two more images.  Photographed in Olympia. WA circa early 1950s.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV


Chuck Soule
 

There are some photos of log cars in the portion of the Walt Ainsworth NP Locations collection at the NPRHA website.  It is a little difficult to find the link, and more difficult to filter, but here is a link

http://www.nprha.org/Lists/WWANL/AllItems.aspx

An example - once in the web page, you can scroll down 5 pictures to find a 1953 log train on the Auburn wye. 

Searching the site is awkward - we are working on better software.  But once on Walt's Location page, click on the right site of subject 2 to get a menu.  Scroll down and check "log train" to get access to 17 pictures that meet that heading.  You can do the same on subject 1, but there are only 2 pictures.  You can also check "car-lot" but there is only one pic currently posted.

We are working to put up more pictures that have been scanned and indexed.  That's not in my shop, so I don't know how soon it will happen.

Unfortunately, you can't get more than the thumbnail from web site.  But you can contact Pacific NW Railroad Archive for a better print.  info@...

Hope this helps.
Chuck Soule


Doug Paasch
 

Thanks Brian!  It looks like the pins on the log cradle fold down for dumping?

 

  Doug Paasch

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of brianleppert@...
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 10:16 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] MILW & NP log trains

 

In addition to Gene Deimling's post on skeleton log cars, here are two more images.  Photographed in Olympia. WA circa early 1950s.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV


Doug Paasch
 

Thanks Chuck.  I managed to get to the 17 photos.

 

  Doug Paasch

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chuck Soule
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 2:45 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] MILW & NP log trains

 

There are some photos of log cars in the portion of the Walt Ainsworth NP Locations collection at the NPRHA website.  It is a little difficult to find the link, and more difficult to filter, but here is a link

http://www.nprha.org/Lists/WWANL/AllItems.aspx

An example - once in the web page, you can scroll down 5 pictures to find a 1953 log train on the Auburn wye. 

Searching the site is awkward - we are working on better software.  But once on Walt's Location page, click on the right site of subject 2 to get a menu.  Scroll down and check "log train" to get access to 17 pictures that meet that heading.  You can do the same on subject 1, but there are only 2 pictures.  You can also check "car-lot" but there is only one pic currently posted.

We are working to put up more pictures that have been scanned and indexed.  That's not in my shop, so I don't know how soon it will happen.

Unfortunately, you can't get more than the thumbnail from web site.  But you can contact Pacific NW Railroad Archive for a better print.  info@...

Hope this helps.
Chuck Soule


Andy Brusgard <ajb1102@...>
 

Question - The weight of the logs would rest directly on the two cross I beams which are directly over the truck bolsters and the trucks. Little or no weight would be on the center portion of the car.  Why the need for truss bars?


Gene Deimling
 

Brian
Nice find on the color images of the log cars

Gene Deimling


Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 03:55 PM, Andy Brusgard wrote:
Question - The weight of the logs would rest directly on the two cross I beams which are directly over the truck bolsters and the trucks. Little or no weight would be on the center portion of the car.  Why the need for truss bars?
Typically because the truss rods also hold the end sills on. Admittedly, since the center of the car carries no weight they could be replaced with straight tie rods, but in the case of these rebuilds, they were already there, so were left in place.

Dennis Storzek


Gene Deimling
 

The NP skeleton cars shown in the pictures and plan had a steel center sill. The railroad shops decided to leave them to keep the car together.

Gene Deimling