Topics

PM box car - unusual ends?

Richard Brennan
 

Ref: http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-08-25-19/X7535.jpg

From the Erie Lakawanna list, PM 91493 - double-door steel box car on the left...
What type of end is this?
Thin-thin-Fat... Thin-thin-Fat... Thin-thin ...

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

Richard Townsend
 

Without knowing the proper nomenclature <g>, I would say it is a reversed 3-3-3 dreadnaught end.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Brennan <rbrennan@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2019 9:07 am
Subject: [RealSTMFC] PM box car - unusual ends?


From the Erie Lakawanna list, PM 91493 - double-door steel box car on the left...
What type of end is this?
Thin-thin-Fat... Thin-thin-Fat... Thin-thin ...

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------


Richard Townsend
 

or 2-3-3.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Townsend via Groups.Io <richtownsend@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2019 9:31 am
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] PM box car - unusual ends?

Without knowing the proper nomenclature <g>, I would say it is a reversed 3-3-3 dreadnaught end.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Brennan <rbrennan@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Aug 25, 2019 9:07 am
Subject: [RealSTMFC] PM box car - unusual ends?


From the Erie Lakawanna list, PM 91493 - double-door steel box car on the left...
What type of end is this?
Thin-thin-Fat... Thin-thin-Fat... Thin-thin ...

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------


Tim O'Connor
 

You're looking at the backside view of most dreadnaught ends (with variations
in the number of ribs and panels). Some call them "reverse dreadnaughts" and I've
heard "inverse dreadnaught" as well.

On 8/25/2019 12:07 PM, Richard Brennan wrote:
Ref: http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-08-25-19/X7535.jpg

From the Erie Lakawanna list, PM 91493 - double-door steel box car on the left...
What type of end is this?
Thin-thin-Fat... Thin-thin-Fat... Thin-thin ...

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*

Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

You're looking at the backside view of most dreadnaught ends (with variations
in the number of ribs and panels). Some call them "reverse dreadnaughts" and I've
heard "inverse dreadnaught" as well.
I don't see this as a reverse end at all. I think people are being confused by the two wider ribs, probably located at seams where pieces of the end are joined together. It might be a RECESSED end, in which the corrugations look pressed INTO the end, rather than proud of its surface, but I'm not sure if that's the case.

Tony Thompson
tony@...

Schleigh Mike
 

The book, PM Revenue Freight Cars, Million & Paton, page 92, refers to these ends as "three-piece "recessed" type Dreadnaught ends."

Regards from Sunny Grove City in western Penna......Mike Schleigh

On Sunday, August 25, 2019, 3:02:28 PM EDT, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:


Tim O'Connor wrote:

> You're looking at the backside view of most dreadnaught ends (with variations
> in the number of ribs and panels). Some call them "reverse dreadnaughts" and I've
> heard "inverse dreadnaught" as well.

    I don't see this as a reverse end at all. I think people are being confused by the two wider ribs, probably located at seams where pieces of the end are joined together. It might be a RECESSED end, in which the corrugations look pressed INTO the end, rather than proud of its surface, but I'm not sure if that's the case.

Tony Thompson
tony@...





Donald B. Valentine
 

    The end is made of three pieces and the fat part is where they are joined, either riveted or welded,
I can't tell for sure in the photo but it looks like they are welded.

Cordially, Don Valentine

Tom Madden
 

Looks a lot like this, I bet!

Tom Madden

Richard Townsend
 

Right you are.


On Aug 25, 2019, at 1:15 PM, Tom Madden via Groups.Io <pullmanboss@...> wrote:

Looks a lot like this, I bet!

Tom Madden
<End.jpg>

Tim O'Connor
 


lol - and a third candidate term! I started with Ed Hawkins' nomenclature
where he assigned a specific code to each type of end. In my opinion that's
really the only solution - a kind of scientific notation for freight car ends.
I expanded on Ed's and I keep them on file as my own reference

 5/5/5 MUR     Murphy end
   7/7 MUR     Murphy end
 3/3/3 DN      dreadnaught (some early auto cars)
   4   DN      dreadnaught (gondolas)
   4/4 DN      dreadnaught
   4/5 DN      dreadnaught
   5/5 DN      dreadnaught
   4/4 DART    "dartnot" or ACF Car Builder end (1950-1954)
   4/4 IDE     "rolling pin"
   4/4 IDE-2   "rolling pin" w/ short top rib
   3/4 IDE     "rolling pin" w/ extra narrow top rib
   3/4 IDE-2   "rolling pin" w/ no extra narrow top rib
 R-3/4 IDE     "rolling pin" w/ rectangular top rib (postwar to 1954)
 R+3/4 IDE      - alternate
 R-3/4 TDE     "tapered rib" w/ rectangular top rib (1955 and onwards)
 R+3/4 TDE      - alternate
   4/4 TDE     "tapered rib" w/ no rectangular rib
 3/3/3 TDE     "tapered rib" w/ no rectangular rib
   x/x PSE     Pullman Standard end
     x NTE     Non Terminating End

          -r   modifier indicates rivet seams
          -w   modifier indicates welded seams

   ... IV..    "inverse" pattern (mirror image)
   ... RV..    "reverse" pattern (inside out)





On 8/25/2019 3:02 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Tim O'Connor wrote:

You're looking at the backside view of most dreadnaught ends (with variations
in the number of ribs and panels). Some call them "reverse dreadnaughts" and I've
heard "inverse dreadnaught" as well.
     I don't see this as a reverse end at all. I think people are being confused by the two wider ribs, probably located at seams where pieces of the end are joined together. It might be a RECESSED end, in which the corrugations look pressed INTO the end, rather than proud of its surface, but I'm not sure if that's the case.

Tony Thompson
tony@...

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Armand Premo
 

Unusual ends?How about the C&O 5400s with the "Deco ends.Armand Premo

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 8:57 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

lol - and a third candidate term! I started with Ed Hawkins' nomenclature
where he assigned a specific code to each type of end. In my opinion that's
really the only solution - a kind of scientific notation for freight car ends.
I expanded on Ed's and I keep them on file as my own reference

 5/5/5 MUR     Murphy end
   7/7 MUR     Murphy end
 3/3/3 DN      dreadnaught (some early auto cars)
   4   DN      dreadnaught (gondolas)
   4/4 DN      dreadnaught
   4/5 DN      dreadnaught
   5/5 DN      dreadnaught
   4/4 DART    "dartnot" or ACF Car Builder end (1950-1954)
   4/4 IDE     "rolling pin"
   4/4 IDE-2   "rolling pin" w/ short top rib
   3/4 IDE     "rolling pin" w/ extra narrow top rib
   3/4 IDE-2   "rolling pin" w/ no extra narrow top rib
 R-3/4 IDE     "rolling pin" w/ rectangular top rib (postwar to 1954)
 R+3/4 IDE      - alternate
 R-3/4 TDE     "tapered rib" w/ rectangular top rib (1955 and onwards)
 R+3/4 TDE      - alternate
   4/4 TDE     "tapered rib" w/ no rectangular rib
 3/3/3 TDE     "tapered rib" w/ no rectangular rib
   x/x PSE     Pullman Standard end
     x NTE     Non Terminating End

          -r   modifier indicates rivet seams
          -w   modifier indicates welded seams

   ... IV..    "inverse" pattern (mirror image)
   ... RV..    "reverse" pattern (inside out)





On 8/25/2019 3:02 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Tim O'Connor wrote:

You're looking at the backside view of most dreadnaught ends (with variations
in the number of ribs and panels). Some call them "reverse dreadnaughts" and I've
heard "inverse dreadnaught" as well.
     I don't see this as a reverse end at all. I think people are being confused by the two wider ribs, probably located at seams where pieces of the end are joined together. It might be a RECESSED end, in which the corrugations look pressed INTO the end, rather than proud of its surface, but I'm not sure if that's the case.

Tony Thompson
tony@...

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Virus-free. www.avast.com

Garth Groff <sarahsan@...>
 

Tim and Armand,

A very useful categorization, at least if all of us used it. It needs to be expanded, and available somewhere in our archives.

Van Dorn ends?

How about adding the Canadian NSCE ends?

Are the NTE ends the ones applied to experimental light-weight boxcars built in the late 1930s? There were two versions of these ends, one by Pullman with fat wales that ended short of the car end edges, and another very rare end by AC&F which had thinner wales that went all the way to the car end edges. See MODEL RAILROADING June 1987.

What is meant by the "alternate" on the R+3/4 IDE and R+3/4 TDE ends? Could this be better defined?

Could we have an addendum classing the various auto car end door designs?

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff




On 8/26/2019 9:47 AM, Armand Premo wrote:
Unusual ends?How about the C&O 5400s with the "Deco ends.Armand Premo

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 8:57 AM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

lol - and a third candidate term! I started with Ed Hawkins' nomenclature
where he assigned a specific code to each type of end. In my opinion that's
really the only solution - a kind of scientific notation for freight car ends.
I expanded on Ed's and I keep them on file as my own reference

 5/5/5 MUR     Murphy end
   7/7 MUR     Murphy end
 3/3/3 DN      dreadnaught (some early auto cars)
   4   DN      dreadnaught (gondolas)
   4/4 DN      dreadnaught
   4/5 DN      dreadnaught
   5/5 DN      dreadnaught
   4/4 DART    "dartnot" or ACF Car Builder end (1950-1954)
   4/4 IDE     "rolling pin"
   4/4 IDE-2   "rolling pin" w/ short top rib
   3/4 IDE     "rolling pin" w/ extra narrow top rib
   3/4 IDE-2   "rolling pin" w/ no extra narrow top rib
 R-3/4 IDE     "rolling pin" w/ rectangular top rib (postwar to 1954)
 R+3/4 IDE      - alternate
 R-3/4 TDE     "tapered rib" w/ rectangular top rib (1955 and onwards)
 R+3/4 TDE      - alternate
   4/4 TDE     "tapered rib" w/ no rectangular rib
 3/3/3 TDE     "tapered rib" w/ no rectangular rib
   x/x PSE     Pullman Standard end
     x NTE     Non Terminating End

          -r   modifier indicates rivet seams
          -w   modifier indicates welded seams

   ... IV..    "inverse" pattern (mirror image)
   ... RV..    "reverse" pattern (inside out)





On 8/25/2019 3:02 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

Tim O'Connor wrote:

You're looking at the backside view of most dreadnaught ends (with variations
in the number of ribs and panels). Some call them "reverse dreadnaughts" and I've
heard "inverse dreadnaught" as well.
     I don't see this as a reverse end at all. I think people are being confused by the two wider ribs, probably located at seams where pieces of the end are joined together. It might be a RECESSED end, in which the corrugations look pressed INTO the end, rather than proud of its surface, but I'm not sure if that's the case.

Tony Thompson
tony@...

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

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