Topics

NP R23 clone reefer

Dennis Storzek
 

On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 10:16 AM, vapeurchapelon wrote:
 

 

I agree; I see a color separation here also. However, before everyone simply assumes the lighter graytone is some sort of red, keep in mind that all blacks don't necessarily match. Many coatings that would fall into the category of "car cement" were asphalt based and dried to sort of a gunmetal gray. Riding the elevated around Chicago in my younger days, I got to look at a LOT of flat roofs, and you could always tell those that were mopped with asphalt rather than tar by the color. However, in the general sense they were all black. I suspect the same is at work here; the coating used on the roof (to seal the laps and hopefully adhere better to the galvanized roof panels than paint would, doesn't match the black paint used on the ends and hardware, but this was acceptable, because the roof surface was going to be covered with soot soon after the car went in service anyway.

Dennis Storzek
 

leakinmywaders
 

Just to reiterate a point Jim Dick made, and Aaron hinted at, the NP was in general watched over by a hierarchy of engaged sticklers.  While not completely unheard of, it was unusual for equipment to stray significantly from the specs in the official painting and lettering diagrams (as revised and noted on specific dates). This was so until the late 1960s, when mergeritis started setting in—and then mainly things went chaotically nonstandard mostly for lettering flat, gon, and hopper repaints, Less so for house cars. 

Chris Frissell 
Polson, MT

vapeurchapelon
 

With this portion magnified - as odd as it certainly is, I can't deny to think that there is just a small black stripe at the roof top end, maybe 4 - 6 inches broad. Please see attached image section where I placed some red dots and compare with the original.
If that is complete bogus I apologize.
 
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
 
Gesendet: Samstag, 28. September 2019 um 14:34 Uhr
Von: "Fred Jansz" <fred@...>
An: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP R23 clone reefer
My last contribution to this thread:

- If the base color of the roof was black, why would overspray on the runboard be light gray (compared to the black of the ends)?
- Or is it the anti-slip granulate we see as 'overspray' on the runboard?
- the ends & hardware show as pure black in the picture.
- the hatches show us 2 different hues of gray: around and under the lettering and on the rest of the hatch
  These 2 are significantly different, see picture and Photoshop measurement. 
  (BTW: I can't believe the paint & lettering were added OVER the granulate, this part of the hatch was masked while adding the granulate).
- Meaning the original roof paint is showing where the hatch-lettering can be seen.
  This also differs significantly from the black on the tackboard, see Photoshop measurements.

My 2 (or 50) cents: Sides (of this NP R23 91072) chrome yellow, roof red (w granulate), ends & hardware black.
cheers, Fred Jansz

Fred Jansz
 

My last contribution to this thread:

- If the base color of the roof was black, why would overspray on the runboard be light gray (compared to the black of the ends)?
- Or is it the anti-slip granulate we see as 'overspray' on the runboard?
- the ends & hardware show as pure black in the picture.
- the hatches show us 2 different hues of gray: around and under the lettering and on the rest of the hatch
  These 2 are significantly different, see picture and Photoshop measurement. 
  (BTW: I can't believe the paint & lettering were added OVER the granulate, this part of the hatch was masked while adding the granulate).
- Meaning the original roof paint is showing where the hatch-lettering can be seen.
  This also differs significantly from the black on the tackboard, see Photoshop measurements.

My 2 (or 50) cents: Sides (of this NP R23 91072) chrome yellow, roof red (w granulate), ends & hardware black.
cheers, Fred Jansz

Tim O'Connor
 


The paint applied to these reefer roofs (and hatches) probably had "non skid" sand
added to the mix and so had a flat appearance. Then stencils were added to the hatches
with a gloss color (could be black or brown who knows?) background.



On 9/27/2019 6:06 PM, npin53 wrote:
Lets stir the pot some more.....On the far left, there is a patch of differently shaded paint on the hatch covers?

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

np328
 

     Aaron is right about the Chrome Yellow on the car.  Chrome Yellow was also the color used on NP semaphore blades.
     Fred, I will agree that the tones you posted look different from the top vs the end. I believe (fingers crossed) that the roofs had granular grit (forgot the corporate name) and that well might throw off the light reflection to appear different. I know I posted something a ways back and Tony responded that the granules could be ordered in different colors.             
   Does anyone see a shiny surface reflection off the roof the way the black paint is elsewhere?    I do not. 

 Fred take the photo enlargement you supplied, https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/attachment/167035/0/Schermafbeelding%202019-09-27%20om%2019.26.53.png

     OK, within the red circle, look on top of the two ladders were they curve inward to attach to the car. The one from the car side on the left reflects the light differently than the one on the right. My feeling is that what is being judged as red is the manner that light particles scatter off an uneven surface, like granules.  However, black.
     I agree with Aaron on the roof, black, as that is what an NP 1944 color charts states: Metal roofs - black.  

     I need to run over to the MNHS and relook up the builders specs and see how many gallons of paint and which colors were listed and if indeed, a granular coat put on the roof. Perhaps that will happen this year.  I have a few (paying) research requests I have to get to first.  Not that this is unimportant to me, and Aaron. 

   Tony T, if I had solid, verifiable data to add, I would have responded.  

Some other externalities that factor in.  
1. From 1940 to 1947 includes WWII, which could affect paint colors, or paint chemical ingredients. NP changed their designation of what was to be painted silver (aluminum paint) during the war the war to white, and changed it back after the war. This may have affected reefer paint also, however until factual evidence is found, that is just a guess.
2. Human nature. In files regarding "paint" I found a letter from an NP VP to local division HQ asking about some semaphore blades being Canary Yellow. After checking back came the reply that the blades were badly in need of repainting and the store-master was out of the regular paint and sent the first thing he could get that was close. Several months later, when the correct paint was re-obtained, all these blades were repainted. I would hate to think if someone had a photo of this isolated incident going "Look! Proof!" without the prior letters explaining how this came about.
3. See the attached sheet, it lists eleven different paint suppliers. Does anyone think that (a) these were an exact match or (b) these weathered uniformly?  Much earlier than the date of the attachment, one 1920s sheet lists as many as 23 suppliers. 

I showed a photo looking back over an NP reefer consist crossing the Cascades in one of my RPM presentations: many, many, shades of reefer oranges and other colors. Combine that with Richard Hendrickson's statements about how dirty or sooty freight cars were when steam roamed freely.

And so, I hesitate to get into these briar patch conversations without solid factual information.                                      Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 




   


     

Nelson Moyer
 

That’s overspray from painting the roof seams. There is overspray on the running board  at the center of all of the roof seams as well, as seen in the earlier photos. Apparently, the seams were sprayed the same color as the ends, but the rest of the galvanized roof was left unpainted.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of npin53
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 5:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP R23 clone reefer

 

Lets stir the pot some more.....On the far left, there is a patch of differently shaded paint on the hatch covers?

npin53
 
Edited

Lets stir the pot some more.....On the far left, there is a patch of differently shaded paint on the hatch covers.

Is this mineral red paint over black? Black paint over black car cement? I don't think it is black over red. Just because it appears darker, doesn't mean that it is. I think it is more glossy than the flatter finish in the hatch and roof color.

Aaron Gjermundson

Donald B. Valentine
 

Hi folks, I agree that the ends look black and the roof red to me but the white in the monad herald b may seem
"whiter" in the newer herald only because there is more white in the larger size herald. I'm not convinced it is
different but may only appear to be. YMMV.

Cordially, Don Valentine

npin53
 

The car color was called Chrome Yellow. I always try to match it to school bus yellow. Testers does have a chrome Yellow in its product line.

The 1949 built NP reefers with the diagonal panel roofs, were bare galvanized with brown ends. 

As for the 1947 cars, mine will be black until someone proves it otherwise, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Black car cement reflected light different than paint.


Aaron Gjermundson

Todd Sullivan
 

Hmmm, in the photo, the tone of the roof looks pretty close to the tone of the red in the NP herald.

Todd Sullivan.

Fred Jansz
 

The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced the roof wasn't black.
Maybe not even red, but could it have been silver-gray?
Take a look at this enlargement.
Hope someone can find a color picture of a similar or earlier car.

cheers,
Fred Jansz

Tim O'Connor
 

Fred,

My notes say it's not a PFE reefer with the NP reefer, but an MDT reefer.
But I don't know where I came up with that... But PFE and MDT oranges were
pretty close in any case.



On 9/27/2019 2:06 AM, Fred Jansz wrote:
Thanks guys.
Found the answer:
"The slogan came into use in 1947 early in the production of the R-40-23 clones.
The first 30 or 40 of the NP cones were delivered without the slogan, while the rest were delivered with them".

About the color;
Looks like the 'North Coast Ltd'-car  is a 1950 R25-clone with slightly more orangish-yellow and RED ends & blk roof.
NP might have switched from yellow on the R23's to more orange on the R25's?
The IM picture IMHO is a bit too bright, but this could be light conditions.
Later IM cars I've seen are less bright, but these could be the R25 clones w. NC slogan

I ran the prototype pictures through Photoshop and you can see #72 is brighter than the later R25 clones (the white of the Nomad logo being the reference).
That said, the PFE car at right is defenitely orange.
cheers, Fred Jansz

npin53: thanks for posting that gorgeous picture!
Ran it through Photoshop and now have my doubts about the roof being black.
Ends yes, defenitely, but roof seems red to me... compared to the black ends.


Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Fred Jansz
 

Here's the larger version of the PS'd NP91072.
Compare the color of the hatch isolation with roof and ends; roof has a different hue.
Now the Q is: who has a picture of such a reefer without the slogan?
Must be below 91040 I guess.
Fred Jansz

Fred Jansz
 

Thanks guys.
Found the answer:
"The slogan came into use in 1947 early in the production of the R-40-23 clones.
The first 30 or 40 of the NP cones were delivered without the slogan, while the rest were delivered with them".

About the color;
Looks like the 'North Coast Ltd'-car  is a 1950 R25-clone with slightly more orangish-yellow and RED ends & blk roof.
NP might have switched from yellow on the R23's to more orange on the R25's?
The IM picture IMHO is a bit too bright, but this could be light conditions.
Later IM cars I've seen are less bright, but these could be the R25 clones w. NC slogan

I ran the prototype pictures through Photoshop and you can see #72 is brighter than the later R25 clones (the white of the Nomad logo being the reference).
That said, the PFE car at right is defenitely orange.
cheers, Fred Jansz

npin53: thanks for posting that gorgeous picture!
Ran it through Photoshop and now have my doubts about the roof being black.
Ends yes, defenitely, but roof seems red to me... compared to the black ends.


Tim O'Connor
 


I have a surprising number of color shots of PFE post-1950 repaints (two B&W heralds) that
show BLACK ends and possibly black roofs as well on some cars.

Intermountain did later releases of the NP steel reefers in what I thought was a reasonably
good rendition of the NP "yellowish orange". Model photos taken with a flash can definitely
affect the color and maybe that's why the models appear to be yellow?

Tim



On 9/26/2019 11:02 PM, Tom Madden via Groups.Io wrote:
Here are two WestRail reefers I started over 25 years ago but never finished. Followed Richard's instructions for paint & lettering. The cars are pretty crude by today's standards but Richard called for the same paint on both the PFE and NP versions IIRC - Floquil SP Daylight Orange.

Tom Madden

Attachments:



--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Greg Martin
 

Interesting subject as I just founx the original master for this car just last weekend.  

Greg Martin 



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "Tom Madden via Groups.Io" <pullmanboss@...>
Date: 9/26/19 8:02 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] NP R23 clone reefer

Here are two WestRail reefers I started over 25 years ago but never finished. Followed Richard's instructions for paint & lettering. The cars are pretty crude by today's standards but Richard called for the same paint on both the PFE and NP versions IIRC - Floquil SP Daylight Orange.

Tom Madden

Attachments:


--
Hey Boss,


Somehow I got deleted from this group in late May. I guess someone didn't like me. Jail is a lonely place.

Greg Martin 

Tom Madden
 

Here are two WestRail reefers I started over 25 years ago but never finished. Followed Richard's instructions for paint & lettering. The cars are pretty crude by today's standards but Richard called for the same paint on both the PFE and NP versions IIRC - Floquil SP Daylight Orange.

Tom Madden

Tony Thompson
 

I agree with Tim, and I have asked previously on this list about NP reefer color, especially whether and when it changed from yellow to light orange. No answer.
Tony Thompson 


On Sep 26, 2019, at 3:35 PM, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:



I have always been skeptical of the yellow paint applied to NP R-40-23 models. All
of the color photos I have of NP ice reefers after 1940 are a light orange-yellow color
like the attached photo. But many models have been produced with yellow paint.

Are there any good COLOR photos of these R-40-23 cars when they were new, or reasonably new?




On 9/26/2019 5:46 PM, Fred Jansz wrote:
Hi all,
want to add this IM NP reefer to my reefer collection.
Checked the group archives and could find Mr. Hendrickson's remarks about these cars. He mentioned that the lower 91XXX numbers from 1947 did NOT posess the 'Main Street' phrase. Later cars did have it.
I can take it off, no problem, but what about the roof? I've read somewhere it should be silver? Or was that the case on the R25 clones? See picture of the 1947 R23 clone. Thanks for your help.
best regards, Fred Jansz

Attachments:


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts
<np_91819 40ft_reefer PCF-1954 double-hinge-door brand-new-paint coupled-to MDT reefer.jpg>

Tim O'Connor
 


I have always been skeptical of the yellow paint applied to NP R-40-23 models. All
of the color photos I have of NP ice reefers after 1940 are a light orange-yellow color
like the attached photo. But many models have been produced with yellow paint.

Are there any good COLOR photos of these R-40-23 cars when they were new, or reasonably new?




On 9/26/2019 5:46 PM, Fred Jansz wrote:
Hi all,
want to add this IM NP reefer to my reefer collection.
Checked the group archives and could find Mr. Hendrickson's remarks about these cars. He mentioned that the lower 91XXX numbers from 1947 did NOT posess the 'Main Street' phrase. Later cars did have it.
I can take it off, no problem, but what about the roof? I've read somewhere it should be silver? Or was that the case on the R25 clones? See picture of the 1947 R23 clone. Thanks for your help.
best regards, Fred Jansz

Attachments:


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts