Topics

Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Could be, I never tried a long soak. I spoke from the perspective of an electronics technician who often had to solder junctions including magnet wire. That was always a pain, but various tricks helped. It could be abraded off with sandpaper, but this was tricky on the smaller sizes (gauges in the #40s sizes). The insulation often seemed stronger than the wire, and the end of the wire would frequently break off.  No solvents were effective. Heating the end of the wire in the flame of an alcohol lamp was the most effective method. On fine gauge wire this only takes a second or so (it’s easy to overdo it and melt the end of the wire).  Once charred the residue of the insulation could be easily removed with a fingernail or fine sandpaper.

On the other hand, for model RR purposes, why remove the insulation at all? It’s very thin, adds little to the diameter of the wire, and can be painted if desired. The wire itself is bright copper, not at all what prototype steel wire looks like. The natural color of the insulation ranges from browns to greens, and often it is transparent enough to allow the copper wire color to show through, so painting is probably desired.

Dan Mitchell
==========


On Oct 17, 2019, at 10:57 PM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

Dan, you are right, a few wipes of lacquer thinner won’t remove the insulation, however, you are also wrong, soaking wire in lacquer thinner for several hours does soften the insulation, and then it is easily removed .
 
Nelson Moyer.
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 8:57 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties
 
The plastic insulation (sometimes nylon) of many kinds of “magnet wire” is NOT removable by lacquer thinner … or much of anything else either. However heating the wire to near red-heat (candle or lighter) will char the coating, making it easily removable with solvents or mild abrasion (sandpaper).
 
Dan Mitchell
==========

 

On Oct 17, 2019, at 8:56 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:
 
That works, but you can remove the lacquer insulation from magnet wire with a few wipes of lacquer thinner and do the same thing. The large array of wire diameters available as magnet wire give you more control of scale sizes.
 
Nelson Moyer
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of mvlandsw
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 12:42 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties
 
For very small diameter wire without any insulating coating strip the insulation off of stranded wire used in decoder installations. This should accept chemical blackening.

Mark Vinski 
 

Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.
 
 

 

Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.
 

Nelson Moyer
 

Dan, you are right, a few wipes of lacquer thinner won’t remove the insulation, however, you are also wrong, soaking wire in lacquer thinner for several hours does soften the insulation, and then it is easily removed .

 

Nelson Moyer.

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Daniel A. Mitchell
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 8:57 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

The plastic insulation (sometimes nylon) of many kinds of “magnet wire” is NOT removable by lacquer thinner … or much of anything else either. However heating the wire to near red-heat (candle or lighter) will char the coating, making it easily removable with solvents or mild abrasion (sandpaper).

 

Dan Mitchell

==========

 

On Oct 17, 2019, at 8:56 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

 

That works, but you can remove the lacquer insulation from magnet wire with a few wipes of lacquer thinner and do the same thing. The large array of wire diameters available as magnet wire give you more control of scale sizes.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of mvlandsw
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 12:42 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

For very small diameter wire without any insulating coating strip the insulation off of stranded wire used in decoder installations. This should accept chemical blackening.

Mark Vinski 

 


Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.

 

 

 


Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.

 

Bob Werre
 

I put together that package of the pipe for loads maybe 10-14 years ago.  It worked out fine and as I recall you used a wooden dowel as an armature.  I later made up some larger diameter pipe using corrugated material sold by Triangle models (S scale--not sure if it's still available from the new owner though).  It was slightly thicker but worked out well--just don't drop something on the car or you'll have scrap metal load!  I used Chartpack for strapping.  A good friend used scrap exposed and processed litho film, then painted the final few scale inches with red paint--that was perfect. 

Bob Werre

BobWphoto.com 

Daniel A. Mitchell
 

The plastic insulation (sometimes nylon) of many kinds of “magnet wire” is NOT removable by lacquer thinner … or much of anything else either. However heating the wire to near red-heat (candle or lighter) will char the coating, making it easily removable with solvents or mild abrasion (sandpaper).

Dan Mitchell
==========

On Oct 17, 2019, at 8:56 AM, Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...> wrote:

That works, but you can remove the lacquer insulation from magnet wire with a few wipes of lacquer thinner and do the same thing. The large array of wire diameters available as magnet wire give you more control of scale sizes.
 
Nelson Moyer
 
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of mvlandsw
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 12:42 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties
 
For very small diameter wire without any insulating coating strip the insulation off of stranded wire used in decoder installations. This should accept chemical blackening.

Mark Vinski 

 

Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.
 

Nelson Moyer
 

That works, but you can remove the lacquer insulation from magnet wire with a few wipes of lacquer thinner and do the same thing. The large array of wire diameters available as magnet wire give you more control of scale sizes.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of mvlandsw
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2019 12:42 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

For very small diameter wire without any insulating coating strip the insulation off of stranded wire used in decoder installations. This should accept chemical blackening.

Mark Vinski

 


Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.

 

 

Corrugated pipes for loads are now made by Iowa Scaled Engineering.


Regards,

Colin ‘t Hart
Frösön, Sweden

mvlandsw
 

For very small diameter wire without any insulating coating strip the insulation off of stranded wire used in decoder installations. This should accept chemical blackening.

Mark Vinski

s shaffer
 

Tim O'Connor writes:


*Jaeger*is the vendor - they don't make that pipe kit anymore. It was a GREAT kit
I just bought one of the kits on ebay. I had been trying to roll my own using heavy and extra heavy aluminum foil and different sizes of all- thread. Was not working well. I need to measure the thickness of the aluminum in the kit which are corrugated flat sheets that you roll around a wood dowel. Campbell Scale Models used to sell corrugated roof metal, but I do not remember how the corrugations were oriented to be useful for making pipe. Only other corrugated metal I have used was in the Suydam metal kits but that is too heavy to roll and somewhat course.

Steve Shaffer
Las Cruces, New Mexico

Tim O'Connor
 


Jaeger is the vendor - they don't make that pipe kit anymore. It was a GREAT kit I just
wish they had expanded the product to include 3 or 4 pipe sizes - these are often shipped
as smaller pipes inside larger pipes, because the pipes are relatively lightweight.

I used Chartpak 1/64 for banding on the pipes.



On 10/16/2019 7:39 PM, gary laakso wrote:

Here is a picture of a Chad Boas GN flat car with an ancient, as in 28 plus years. load of galvanized pipe with straps.  The vendor was Jamiko,( spelling), in a blue and white box.  The material is a synthetic and came in a roll and was used both for a lumber load and for the galvanized pipe.  Likely, the material is available in a craft store. 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

Attachments:


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Douglas Harding
 

Yes it appears my message was in haste, warranting further research. I thank everyone for correcting my error and offering proof of much earlier use of metal strapping.

 

Based on this new information I too can begin using the chart tape on some loads.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:55 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

I love it. Every time we get a definitive answer to a question, new material surfaces to disprove it. I guess I’ll keep my steel strap aka chart tape.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 11:33 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

Apparently its been around since at least the 1920, or even earlier: https://www.madeinchicagomuseum.com/single-post/signode

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: David W Beidle <gmnodave@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 15, 2019 8:34 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Doug  Harding wrote: " The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966."

I won't argue with you about that, but I was using steel banding (strapping) in the Air Force in 1963.

 

Dave Beidle

St Louis

 

 

 


Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.

 

gary laakso
 

Here is a picture of a Chad Boas GN flat car with an ancient, as in 28 plus years. load of galvanized pipe with straps.  The vendor was Jamiko,( spelling), in a blue and white box.  The material is a synthetic and came in a roll and was used both for a lumber load and for the galvanized pipe.  Likely, the material is available in a craft store. 

 

Gary Laakso

Northwest of Mike Brock

 

Dennis Storzek
 

A few rambling thoughts on strapping vs. banding vs. wire...

Are banding and strapping the same? I think not. Banding is the general term for a much older product, which was soft mild steel. Back in my formative years, during the seventies I worked as a construction carpenter on several poured-in-place concrete buildings. We always had a roll of "band iron" for use in situations where form ties just wouldn't work. This was thin mild steel, and the "band puller" was a foot long handle with a hinged jaw at the end. You nailed down one end of the band and threaded the other through the puller, which was hooked around a corner and the handle used to apply leverage. The other end of the band was then nailed down. Two nails were enough; where the nail pierced the metal became a stress concentrator and the band would break at the hole before the nails would pull out. I still have my band puller in the garage somewhere, but I haven't had anything to pull with it in the last forty five years.

Modern steel strapping is semi hard high tensile steel. You won't be driving nails through that. The beauty of the Signode system and those that came after is the design of the buckle and the tool that deforms the buckle and both layers of strapping where they overlap. Tension is provided with another tool that grasps both layers of strapping and pulls one over the other, then the crimp through the buckle keeps them from sliding back

Wire (round steel wire, not cable) was the traditional tension tie because it could be installed with minimal tools. The wire, or multiple strands of wire, were looped around the pair of stakes and either spliced to themselves or both ends fastened to the same stake. A bar or pipe could then be inserted in the loop, and the wires twisted together. The more they were twisted, the shorter they became, pulling the stakes together and developing tension between them. The bar or pipe was then secured so the wires could not untwist. Simple and effective. 

Dennis  Storzek

Nelson Moyer
 

Never mind. I figured out that I need to use the Permanent Ling to This Book URL. It’s now working.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 3:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

I downloaded and installed the download helper program, and when I enter the book URL, I get an invalid URL message.

 

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/102184919?type%5B%5D=all&lookfor%5B%5D=Rules%20governing%20the%20loading%20of%20commodities&ft=ft

 

This URL isn’t working. What am I doing wrong?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

This program will allow you to download entire books from hathitrust, even if you do not belong to a member institution.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/hathidownloadhelper/

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave Parker via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:33 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

Claus:

Here is the link to the 1934 Loading Rules:

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/102184919?type%5B%5D=all&lookfor%5B%5D=Rules%20governing%20the%20loading%20of%20commodities&ft=ft

Anybody can peruse the document on-line, but you need to belong to a member institution to download the PDF.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

 


Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.

 

Nelson Moyer
 

I downloaded and installed the download helper program, and when I enter the book URL, I get an invalid URL message.

 

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/102184919?type%5B%5D=all&lookfor%5B%5D=Rules%20governing%20the%20loading%20of%20commodities&ft=ft

 

This URL isn’t working. What am I doing wrong?

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Douglas Harding
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:57 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

This program will allow you to download entire books from hathitrust, even if you do not belong to a member institution.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/hathidownloadhelper/

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave Parker via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:33 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

Claus:

Here is the link to the 1934 Loading Rules:

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/102184919?type%5B%5D=all&lookfor%5B%5D=Rules%20governing%20the%20loading%20of%20commodities&ft=ft

Anybody can peruse the document on-line, but you need to belong to a member institution to download the PDF.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Tim O'Connor
 


Circa 1950




On 10/16/2019 7:06 AM, earlyrail wrote:
Re: Suggestions For Wire Load Ties
From: Douglas Harding
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 19:53:04 PDT

According to https://patents.google.com/patent/US3421951

The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966.



This can not be true.
I help my dad apply steel strapping in the mid to late 50's.
Dad was a car inspector/repairman for the CGW in Randolph, MN at the time.
They had all the strapping, clips and tools required.

Howard Garner


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Bruce Smith
 

Steve,

The reweigh on the NYC flat carrying the corrugated pipes appear to be “10-43” which would mean circa 1945 at the latest ;)

Regards

Bruce


Bruce F. Smith            

Auburn, AL

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."




On Oct 16, 2019, at 10:36 AM, James SANDIFER <steve.sandifer@...> wrote:

36 gauge magnet wire, like we use on 403 LEDs. 
 
By the way, when did the railroad begin shipping corrugated pipe like in the photo. Being a specific modeler, I want to confirm the time frame for such shipments. Likewise be careful of painting the ends of pipe or wood if you model the steam era. 

Douglas Harding
 

This program will allow you to download entire books from hathitrust, even if you do not belong to a member institution.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/hathidownloadhelper/

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave Parker via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 10:33 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

Claus:

Here is the link to the 1934 Loading Rules:

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/102184919?type%5B%5D=all&lookfor%5B%5D=Rules%20governing%20the%20loading%20of%20commodities&ft=ft

Anybody can peruse the document on-line, but you need to belong to a member institution to download the PDF.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Nelson Moyer
 

I love it. Every time we get a definitive answer to a question, new material surfaces to disprove it. I guess I’ll keep my steel strap aka chart tape.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Richard Townsend via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 11:33 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

Apparently its been around since at least the 1920, or even earlier: https://www.madeinchicagomuseum.com/single-post/signode

Richard Townsend

Lincoln City, OR

 

-----Original Message-----
From: David W Beidle <gmnodave@...>
To: main <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Oct 15, 2019 8:34 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

Doug  Harding wrote: " The first patent for steel strapping was applied for in 1966."

I won't argue with you about that, but I was using steel banding (strapping) in the Air Force in 1963.

 

Dave Beidle

St Louis

 

 

 


Scanned by McAfee and confirmed virus-free.

 

James SANDIFER
 

36 gauge magnet wire, like we use on 403 LEDs.

 

By the way, when did the railroad begin shipping corrugated pipe like in the photo. Being a specific modeler, I want to confirm the time frame for such shipments. Likewise be careful of painting the ends of pipe or wood if you model the steam era.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Allen Montgomery via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2019 10:56 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Suggestions For Wire Load Ties

 

I would use leftover thread from a Jaeger lumber load. Or you could use Pele's electrician tape idea. Never had luck with that myself.

 

Allen Montgomery

 

 

 

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019, 8:48:31 AM MST, Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

 

 

I'm modeling several open car loads in HO scale.

The prototype examples I'm following show that wire is used above the load to tie the top of the stakes that secure the load from lateral movement.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to how to simulate the wires?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA

Dave Parker
 

Claus:

Here is the link to the 1934 Loading Rules:

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/102184919?type%5B%5D=all&lookfor%5B%5D=Rules%20governing%20the%20loading%20of%20commodities&ft=ft

Anybody can peruse the document on-line, but you need to belong to a member institution to download the PDF.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA