Topics

WP conversion


Paul Doggett
 

Hi guys

The Accurail conversion is ready for painting and decals for WP I have left the original roof as Tony Thompson reckons some got steel roofs at some stage. The kit bashing is not perfect as I reckon it’s slightly to high but will be a reasonable stand in.


Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿


Rich C
 

It will look great when you give it The Doggett Weathering magic

On Saturday, December 7, 2019, 07:48:23 AM CST, Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472@...> wrote:


Hi guys

The Accurail conversion is ready for painting and decals for WP I have left the original roof as Tony Thompson reckons some got steel roofs at some stage. The kit bashing is not perfect as I reckon it’s slightly to high but will be a reasonable stand in.


Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿



Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Friends,

While I am loath to argue with Tony about this, I find no evidence or mention of roof replacements to the WP 15001-series boxcars. I have copies of several of the general arrangement diagrams for cars in this series, including the 26001-series in plaster service, 8051-8055 (the last in general service circa 1947, see below), the 75001-series stock cars (which had "single-board" roofs, suggesting the original steel claddding was removed), various cars converted to MW service, and numerous photos in my collection and in several WP books. None offer any indication for roof conversions except the stock cars. I can't say it didn't happen, but I will remain unconvinced until somebody finds photographic or documentary evidence.

The 8051-8055 group should be of particular interest to Fred. The general arrangement drawing was reworked 3-28-47 (only the car numbers were changed). These were apparently the last five such cars in general service, if indeed they actually were still in use. I have the WP July 1949 ORER sheets, and these cars are gone from the roster, as are all the 15001-cars. The 8051 series apparently had a very short life with those numbers.

I suggest the Accurail roof should be sanded smooth and Archer seams added. The car is way too tall to be even a good stand-in (they had just an 8-foot IH, and were 12' 10" and change at the roof peak), which was why I disposed of my examples long ago. 

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff 🦆


On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 9:17 PM Rich C via Groups.Io <rhcdmc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
It will look great when you give it The Doggett Weathering magic

On Saturday, December 7, 2019, 07:48:23 AM CST, Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:


Hi guys

The Accurail conversion is ready for painting and decals for WP I have left the original roof as Tony Thompson reckons some got steel roofs at some stage. The kit bashing is not perfect as I reckon it’s slightly to high but will be a reasonable stand in.


Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿



Paul Doggett
 

Cheers Garth 

I am sanding the roof down it will have to do as a stand in as there’s nothing else available as far as I know.
Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 9 Dec 2019, at 10:36, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Friends,

While I am loath to argue with Tony about this, I find no evidence or mention of roof replacements to the WP 15001-series boxcars. I have copies of several of the general arrangement diagrams for cars in this series, including the 26001-series in plaster service, 8051-8055 (the last in general service circa 1947, see below), the 75001-series stock cars (which had "single-board" roofs, suggesting the original steel claddding was removed), various cars converted to MW service, and numerous photos in my collection and in several WP books. None offer any indication for roof conversions except the stock cars. I can't say it didn't happen, but I will remain unconvinced until somebody finds photographic or documentary evidence.

The 8051-8055 group should be of particular interest to Fred. The general arrangement drawing was reworked 3-28-47 (only the car numbers were changed). These were apparently the last five such cars in general service, if indeed they actually were still in use. I have the WP July 1949 ORER sheets, and these cars are gone from the roster, as are all the 15001-cars. The 8051 series apparently had a very short life with those numbers.

I suggest the Accurail roof should be sanded smooth and Archer seams added. The car is way too tall to be even a good stand-in (they had just an 8-foot IH, and were 12' 10" and change at the roof peak), which was why I disposed of my examples long ago. 

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff 🦆


On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 9:17 PM Rich C via Groups.Io <rhcdmc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
It will look great when you give it The Doggett Weathering magic

On Saturday, December 7, 2019, 07:48:23 AM CST, Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:


Hi guys

The Accurail conversion is ready for painting and decals for WP I have left the original roof as Tony Thompson reckons some got steel roofs at some stage. The kit bashing is not perfect as I reckon it’s slightly to high but will be a reasonable stand in.


Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿



Tony Thompson
 

Garth Groff awrote:

While I am loath to argue with Tony about this, I find no evidence or mention of roof replacements to the WP 15001-series boxcars. 

Some years ago I was discussing these cars with someone I believe is knowledgeable about WP modeling (might have been John Ryczkowski) and he mentioned steel outside roofs being applied. Might that have been the caboose conversions, if not the box cars? But that was my basis. I don't have photos.

I suggest the Accurail roof should be sanded smooth and Archer seams added. The car is way too tall to be even a good stand-in (they had just an 8-foot IH, and were 12' 10" and change at the roof peak), which was why I disposed of my examples long ago. 

        Sanding off the ribs would certainly make it look better.

Tony Thompson




WILLIAM PARDIE
 

What a relief!  With all the discussion about the roof on these cars I was pleased to find when I got home today that Andy got the roof right in his kit.
The plan in the March 1990 Mainline Modeler also featured the correct roof..

Bill Pardie


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: "Paul Doggett via Groups.Io" <paul.doggett2472@...>
Date: 12/9/19 12:54 AM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] WP conversion

Cheers Garth 

I am sanding the roof down it will have to do as a stand in as there’s nothing else available as far as I know.
Paul Doggett. England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 


On 9 Dec 2019, at 10:36, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Friends,

While I am loath to argue with Tony about this, I find no evidence or mention of roof replacements to the WP 15001-series boxcars. I have copies of several of the general arrangement diagrams for cars in this series, including the 26001-series in plaster service, 8051-8055 (the last in general service circa 1947, see below), the 75001-series stock cars (which had "single-board" roofs, suggesting the original steel claddding was removed), various cars converted to MW service, and numerous photos in my collection and in several WP books. None offer any indication for roof conversions except the stock cars. I can't say it didn't happen, but I will remain unconvinced until somebody finds photographic or documentary evidence.

The 8051-8055 group should be of particular interest to Fred. The general arrangement drawing was reworked 3-28-47 (only the car numbers were changed). These were apparently the last five such cars in general service, if indeed they actually were still in use. I have the WP July 1949 ORER sheets, and these cars are gone from the roster, as are all the 15001-cars. The 8051 series apparently had a very short life with those numbers.

I suggest the Accurail roof should be sanded smooth and Archer seams added. The car is way too tall to be even a good stand-in (they had just an 8-foot IH, and were 12' 10" and change at the roof peak), which was why I disposed of my examples long ago. 

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff 🦆


On Sun, Dec 8, 2019 at 9:17 PM Rich C via Groups.Io <rhcdmc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
It will look great when you give it The Doggett Weathering magic

On Saturday, December 7, 2019, 07:48:23 AM CST, Paul Doggett via Groups.Io <paul.doggett2472=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:


Hi guys

The Accurail conversion is ready for painting and decals for WP I have left the original roof as Tony Thompson reckons some got steel roofs at some stage. The kit bashing is not perfect as I reckon it’s slightly to high but will be a reasonable stand in.


Paul Doggett.  England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿



Fred Jansz
 

Guys,

I have copies of the Pullman drawings, pictures of the cars in question and I can assure you the roof of these cars consisted of overlapping steel sheets through their lifes from 1916-1983.
Like I wrote before:
- 10 sheets of 3' 5"
- 2 (end) sheets of 3'-3 7/16"
There were NO outside battens, but inside ribs.
Also the caboose roof did not have battens.
The MM drawings are not 100% correct: especially the roof, which has one weird smaller panel  somewhere halfway the roof. See drawing:

And the accurail car is a bad stand-in: roof is wrong, underbody is wrong, it's too tall and ....sigh.

Fred Jansz


mel perry
 

hi:
how were the seams or joints sealed?
thanks
mrl perry

On Tue, Dec 10, 2019, 12:31 AM Fred Jansz <fred@...> wrote:
Guys,

I have copies of the Pullman drawings, pictures of the cars in question and I can assure you the roof of these cars consisted of overlapping steel sheets through their lifes from 1916-1983.
Like I wrote before:
- 10 sheets of 3' 5"
- 2 (end) sheets of 3'-3 7/16"
There were NO outside battens, but inside ribs.
Also the caboose roof did not have battens.
The MM drawings are not 100% correct: especially the roof, which has one weird smaller panel  somewhere halfway the roof. See drawing:

And the accurail car is a bad stand-in: roof is wrong, underbody is wrong, it's too tall and ....sigh.

Fred Jansz


Fred Jansz
 
Edited

Garth,
You discussed those cars with me (among others).
John's pictures and info is stashed away at the moment, so out of reach.
I also supplied you with copies of the Pullman drawings.

The last original -but renumbered- Pullman cars remaining on the WP roster were the 26001-26125 plaster cars and they stayed -in MW- until the end of WP in 1983.
These were the last remaining cars on the roster, not the 8051-series tool cars.
See the enclosed 1964 diagram.

cheers
Fred Jansz


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Fred and friends,

What I said, or intended to say, was that WP 8051-8055 were the last of the ex-15001 cars in general service, and that they were gone before 1949. The renumbered 26001-series was assigned to Gerlich plaster service and in theory weren't used for general loading anymore (many, if not all, had interior bulkheads, and some had loading hatches).

Further research in my collection throws a light on series 8051-8055's fate. While the 1947 general arrangement shows the 8051-series still listed as general freight cars, another version of the same general arrangement drawing with the numbers scratched out shows 8051-8085 in "store matl. service". This drawing is reproduced on page 163 of "MAINTENANCE OF WAY EQUIPMENT, WESTERN PACIFIC RAILROAD CO.", the official collection of WP MW car drawings reprinted by the Portola Railroad Museum some 30 years ago. The MW number group is from the book's original table of contents, and is not actually reflected on page 163 itself. The WP could be pretty sloppy about such things, as it really didn't matter much except to the bean counters at headquarters in San Francisco.

A few additional points on the numbers. The span of 8051-8055 comes from Frank Brehm's WP diagram web site, and is based on the caption he presented (sorry but his collection of diagrams is not currently available online). Upon careful examination of the diagram (which I downloaded), I see that the actual number span was 8051-8085. The numbers on the original were overwritten, and are a bit fuzzy, but this became apparent when I knew what to look for. So this tallies with numbers on the MW diagram cited above. According to that diagram, a total of 163 cars from the original 15001-series were converted to MW service (many becoming dormitory, kitchen or shop car conversions). WP MW8051-8085 (to use the correct spacing of WP's maintenance car numbering) apparently remained pretty much in original condition as boxcars.

I did make one mistake in my post, but an honest one based on an error in the drawings. The 12' 10" maximum body height was not at the roof peak, though that is how it is shown on the 1947 re-drawing, and on the MW drawing cited above. That value was actually over the running board, as shown on earlier drawings. I discovered the discrepancy while doing further research after my post.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


On Tue, Dec 10, 2019 at 4:03 AM Fred Jansz <fred@...> wrote:
Garth,
You discussed those cars with me (among others).
John's pictures and info is stacked away at the moment, so out of reach.
I also supplied you with copies of the Pullman drawings.

The last original -but renumbered- Pullman cars remaining on the WP roster were the 26001-26125 plaster cars and they stayed -in MW- until the end of WP in 1983.
These were the last remaining cars on the roster, not the 8051-series tool cars.
See the enclosed 1964 diagram.

cheers
Fred Jansz

Attachments:


Randy Hees
 

We have one of these box cars in our museum shop,  WP 2711, wreck train rider car (Elko) , earlier numbers unknown, To Heber UT, converted to a tourist rider car, to Nevada State Railroad Museum Boulder City, 1993, out of service, currently being rehabilitated for tourist service…

 

In the case of this car the roof system consists of steel carlines with wood ridge pole and perlins on top of the steel carlines (and blocking directly over the carline, with wood roof sheeting running the length of the car body, with longitudinal boards over that.  There was a layer of roof felt or similar between the two layers of wood sheeting, and graveled roof felt over all.  It is possible (even likely) that the last layer of graveled roof paper was added after the car left the WP, or at worst while in work service, but the remainder of the roof is clearly from railroad service.  There is no evidence of any steel sheeting on this car.

 

By the way we would love to add any original plans to this car’s preservation file.

 

Randy Hees

Director, Nevada State Railroad Museum, Boulder City

rhees@...

 


Fred Jansz
 
Edited

Dear Garth,
the store cars were still on the system in the 1950's, see picture: SAC 7-56.
They were numbered 8051-8085 from the start and went into MW/scrapped.

Why are boxcars assigned to plaster service not assigned to general service?
Not all of them loaded plaster, only 35 of the 125 cars numbered into 26001-26125 had either 2 or 4 roof hatches, see enclosed copy of my 1950 ORER.
The rest was as built -only renumbered and with AB brakes- these cars stayed into service untill the end of WP in 1983.
See diagram & picture in my previous post and enclosed photo by Bob Larson taken in 1970.
cheers
Fred Jansz


Fred Jansz
 

Randy,

you can purchase the drawings at the Pullman Library, Illionois Railway Museum.
The original drawings state: 3/32" roof plates and rivets, see drawing.
The wooden construction must have been applied afterwards because WP MW2711 was converted from a caboose (that was converted from a 15001-series boxcar early 1940's).
Cabooses did NOT have steel roofs anymore, they were rebuilt with wooden roofs, covered with muleskin.
(© Picture: John Ryczkowski)

regards
Fred Jansz