Topics

Odd (to me) Monon car

william darnaby
 

Yes, it is.  The one I photoed was on a storage track in the B&O’s Indianapolis Belmont Street yard in late 1969 (I was home from college and on my way to a nearby hobby shop).  It was in much better shape but appeared to be unused at the time.

 

Bill Darnaby

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of rwitt_2000 via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 8:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car

 

I believe this is the type of car Bill photographed.

Burnt-out, but one can still see the modifications to the original B&O class M-26 box car.

Bob Witt

rwitt_2000
 

I believe this is the type of B&O car that Bill photographed.

Burnt-out, but one can see the modifications to the former class M-26 box car

Bob Witt

rwitt_2000
 

I believe this is the type of car Bill photographed.

Burnt-out, but one can still see the modifications to the original B&O class M-26 box car.

Bob Witt

Brian Termunde
 

No problem sir, it was interesting to read, and we've certainly have had other partially or completely off-topic posts before.

Take Care,
 
Brian R. Termunde
Midvale, Utah

Re: Odd (to me) Monon car
From: Mont Switzer
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 05:50:05 PST
My apologies to the STMF group for the trucking stuff in this message. I didn't know that response was going to the entire group.

Montford L. Switzer
President
Switzer Tank Lines, Inc.

Tim O'Connor
 

The state "full crew" laws were hilariously written so poorly that these "cabeese"
could be placed anywhere in the train. The Wabash had similar cars and would just put
people inside for the ride. They had nothing to do but hold on for dear life.

On 12/15/2019 3:41 PM, Seth Lakin via Groups.Io wrote:
Yes Salem, Indiana on the Monon. The Monon built in the company shops these “head end cabooses”. They housed the head end brakeman and any LCL that may be carried to be distributed along the line. They were typically used on the wayfreight trains that ran each section of the line. I would have to dig my notes out but there were 6-8 of them built in the late 40’s from flats.

Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*

Mont Switzer
 

My apologies to the STMF group for the trucking stuff in this message. I didn't know that response was going to the entire group.

Montford L. Switzer
President
Switzer Tank Lines, Inc.
Fall Creek Leasing, LLC.
mswitzer@...
(765) 836-2914

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2019 8:02 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Cc: William Darnaby <wdarnaby@...>; Tim Bachus <lvc420@...>; Ron Marquardt <marquardt@...>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car

Ron,

We ran into the rider caboose issue when modeling the Transfer at Monon. When/how were the rider cars moved to the Transfer house for loading of LCL before going out on locals?

I asked Cookie and he told me they never did use the "baggage" end of the rider cars for LCL. LCL was loaded in clean dry boxcars, preferably with doors that worked easily.

Every time I looked in one of the rider cars the "baggage" end was full of tools of the trade: cables, re-railers, knuckles and assorted junk. One wag even had an overstuffed reclining easy chair strategically located near the large door opening. Tough duty.

After the recliner episode I thought I had seen it all until one was removed from a conventional GMC (small day cab) semi-tractor at Bender & Loudon Motor Freight, Inc. I still don't know how the driver assigned to the tractor got it in there because the shop had a hell of a time getting it out. Company policy was only one seat per tractor and it was reserved for the driver.

Mont

Montford L. Switzer
President
Switzer Tank Lines, Inc.
Fall Creek Leasing, LLC.
mswitzer@...
(765) 836-2914

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Penny Simunic
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 5:38 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car

Monon rider car. Used in Indiana to allow LCL shipments. Also to accommodate the extra conductor, for extra crewman in Indiana. Not sure how it ended up out West. In later years used as tool car.
RonS

Mont Switzer
 

Bill Darnaby's explanation of the SP&S Alco RS and what the Monon called:

1. rider cars
2. head end cabooses

Is spot on. The rider cars, a total of 8 were built on low side stone gon frames.

These gons, built by Pullman Standard in Michigan City in 1926. Other than their all wood interiors which were required for cut stone loading the riveted steel portions were virtually indestructible. In addition to the head end cabooses these frames were used to make ten 40 ft. flat cars, 40 piggy-back flats, upwards of 30 coke racks, and countless company service cars of all sizes and shapes. Some cars even survived as built in MofW service until the L&N merger in 1971.

A recent review of disposition (destroyed due to damage) records for these cars seem to indicate that In the steam era they could be seen all over the eastern half of the USA almost certainly hauling cut limestone to large building projects. This was back in the day when many large building projects had a temporary rail siding built right up to the job site. Others had draymen moving the cut stone pieces to the job sites.

Mont

Montford L. Switzer
President
Switzer Tank Lines, Inc.
Fall Creek Leasing, LLC.
mswitzer@...
(765) 836-2914

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Craig Zeni
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 3:48 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car


On Dec 15, 2019, at 3:31 PM, main@RealSTMFC.groups.io wrote:

6a. Odd (to me) Monon car
From: spsalso <Edwardsutorik@...>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:15:11 EST

In the slide below, there's an odd looking Monon car just behind the loco. Photo was taken at Salem, Oregon.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Duplicate-Slide-SP-S-Spokane-Portland-Seattle-ALCO-RS2-64-W-Train-Salem-OR/401998668873?hash=item5d98fce449:g:WpkAAOSwzNFd9eyG

I'm curious what the car is and why it was in Oregon.

Any opinions?

Ed
Not opinion, but fact...it's not Oregon. It's Salem, Indiana. The Monon leased a few SP&S RS-2s in the 1960s. The odd car is what's called a Rider Caboose...a 'front end' caboose was required by Indiana state law for trains longer than 65 cars.

Forgot to sign the first one...


Craig Zeni
Cary NC

Mont Switzer
 

Ron,

We ran into the rider caboose issue when modeling the Transfer at Monon. When/how were the rider cars moved to the Transfer house for loading of LCL before going out on locals?

I asked Cookie and he told me they never did use the "baggage" end of the rider cars for LCL. LCL was loaded in clean dry boxcars, preferably with doors that worked easily.

Every time I looked in one of the rider cars the "baggage" end was full of tools of the trade: cables, re-railers, knuckles and assorted junk. One wag even had an overstuffed reclining easy chair strategically located near the large door opening. Tough duty.

After the recliner episode I thought I had seen it all until one was removed from a conventional GMC (small day cab) semi-tractor at Bender & Loudon Motor Freight, Inc. I still don't know how the driver assigned to the tractor got it in there because the shop had a hell of a time getting it out. Company policy was only one seat per tractor and it was reserved for the driver.

Mont

Montford L. Switzer
President
Switzer Tank Lines, Inc.
Fall Creek Leasing, LLC.
mswitzer@...
(765) 836-2914

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Penny Simunic
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 5:38 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car

Monon rider car. Used in Indiana to allow LCL shipments. Also to accommodate the extra conductor, for extra crewman in Indiana. Not sure how it ended up out West. In later years used as tool car.
RonS

Andy Carlson
 

Lacking a freight car (my apologies) though a wooden head end car, here is another SP&S RS 2 #64 in Indiana. Taken in 1966.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA




On Sunday, December 15, 2019, 12:15:18 PM PST, spsalso via Groups.Io <edwardsutorik@...> wrote:


In the slide below, there's an odd looking Monon car just behind the loco.  Photo was taken at Salem, Oregon.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Duplicate-Slide-SP-S-Spokane-Portland-Seattle-ALCO-RS2-64-W-Train-Salem-OR/401998668873?hash=item5d98fce449:g:WpkAAOSwzNFd9eyG

I'm curious what the car is and why it was in Oregon.

Any opinions?



Ed

Edward Sutorik

william darnaby
 

Actually, the Monon leased two of the SP&S engines while the Monon was upgrading their own nine engines (2 at a time) with new prime movers and improved electrical gear to make them more compatible with the 628’s so one could be run as a sandwich between two 628’s to create a HP/tractive effort combination more appropriate for Monon conditions.

 

The first 4 of these rider cars were built in ’46 and saw service behind steam.  The second 4 were built in ‘52 after converted troop kitchen cars were considered unsatisfactory in this service.  All were built on cut limestone service flats…actually low side composite gons…from the 20’s.  The Monon had 500 of these gons at one time but the Depression kind of killed that type of construction except for some government buildings.

 

Bill Darnaby

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Strahlendorf
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 3:53 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car

 

Yeah, that slide is mis-labeled. That is not on SP&S rails, but on the Monon. The Monon faced a power shortage in 1966 due to their return of several Alco C628s to the manufacturer, and had to lease these SP&S engines until Alco could produce the 628s replacement.

 

The car trailing the locomotive is a 'Rider' car that was required by State Law for 'locals' exceeding a certain size. These were home built by the Monon at the Lafayette, Indiana Shops Mont Switzer can provide a more thorough description of these cars. 

 

In HO, at one time they were offered by Overland Models.

 

Dave Strahlendorf

Erlanger, Ky

william darnaby
 

In the late 60’s I took a photo of one of the B&O’s cars in Indianapolis made from an M26.  It had a side step for the door and caboose grab and ladder type equipment.  Other roads just used an extra caboose at the head end.  Some extended the steam engine cab for the extra seat and a notable one had a tender dog house.  The Monon and NKP found it useful to have the boss at the head end on locals and made cars for that because it was handy to have the conductor right there when the engine stopped at the depot to see the agent, particularly when the train had some length.  Saved walking or backing and forthing.

 

Bill Darnaby

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Seth Lakin via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 6:32 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car

 

Craig wrote:” a 'front end' caboose was required by Indiana state law for trains longer than 65 cars.”


Not exactly, Indiana’s full crew law stated
”It shall be unlawful for any carrier to operate a freight train consisting of seventy (70) cars or more, without a crew of competent employees, which crew shall consist of not less than one (1) engineer, one (1) fireman, one (1) conductor, one (1) flagman, and two (2) brakemen.”

The law did not specify a head end caboose. But the Monon and NKP utilized such cars. The NKP cars were converted from 36’ wood sided boxcars. The NYC had almost identical but the NYC used them in transfer and terminal service.


Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN

Seth Lakin
 

Craig wrote:” a 'front end' caboose was required by Indiana state law for trains longer than 65 cars.”


Not exactly, Indiana’s full crew law stated
”It shall be unlawful for any carrier to operate a freight train consisting of seventy (70) cars or more, without a crew of competent employees, which crew shall consist of not less than one (1) engineer, one (1) fireman, one (1) conductor, one (1) flagman, and two (2) brakemen.”

The law did not specify a head end caboose. But the Monon and NKP utilized such cars. The NKP cars were converted from 36’ wood sided boxcars. The NYC had almost identical but the NYC used them in transfer and terminal service.


Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN

spsalso
 

Ask a question--get an answer.

Wow!

And thanks to all.  Very interesting.  Though not as interesting as it would have been in Oregon.


Ed

Edward Sutorik

Penny Simunic
 

Monon rider car. Used in Indiana to allow LCL shipments. Also to accommodate the extra conductor, for extra crewman in Indiana. Not sure how it ended up out West. In later years used as tool car.
RonS

 

Yeah, that slide is mis-labeled. That is not on SP&S rails, but on the Monon. The Monon faced a power shortage in 1966 due to their return of several Alco C628s to the manufacturer, and had to lease these SP&S engines until Alco could produce the 628s replacement.

The car trailing the locomotive is a 'Rider' car that was required by State Law for 'locals' exceeding a certain size. These were home built by the Monon at the Lafayette, Indiana Shops. Mont Switzer can provide a more thorough description of these cars. 

In HO, at one time they were offered by Overland Models.

Dave Strahlendorf
Erlanger, Ky

Craig Zeni
 

On Dec 15, 2019, at 3:31 PM, main@RealSTMFC.groups.io wrote:

6a. Odd (to me) Monon car
From: spsalso <Edwardsutorik@...>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:15:11 EST

In the slide below, there's an odd looking Monon car just behind the loco. Photo was taken at Salem, Oregon.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Duplicate-Slide-SP-S-Spokane-Portland-Seattle-ALCO-RS2-64-W-Train-Salem-OR/401998668873?hash=item5d98fce449:g:WpkAAOSwzNFd9eyG

I'm curious what the car is and why it was in Oregon.

Any opinions?

Ed
Not opinion, but fact...it's not Oregon. It's Salem, Indiana. The Monon leased a few SP&S RS-2s in the 1960s. The odd car is what's called a Rider Caboose...a 'front end' caboose was required by Indiana state law for trains longer than 65 cars.

Forgot to sign the first one...


Craig Zeni
Cary NC

Steven D Johnson
 

Matt is correct.  Subsequently, that unit was purchased by L&N in 1966 and rebuilt into an RS3 by L&N using components from a damaged L&N FA2.  It was renumbered to L&N #104 (2nd).

 

The car behind the locomotive is a Monon head end caboose. It was one of 6 such cars Monon constructed from old stone-hauling gondolas in the Lafayette Shops. 

 

Steve Johnson

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Matt Herson
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 2:35 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car

 

Ed,

The SP&S engine was  used on the Monon late in its life so I believe the location to be Salem Indiana on the Monan.

Matt Herson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of spsalso via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2019 3:15 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Odd (to me) Monon car

 

In the slide below, there's an odd looking Monon car just behind the loco.  Photo was taken at Salem, Oregon.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Duplicate-Slide-SP-S-Spokane-Portland-Seattle-ALCO-RS2-64-W-Train-Salem-OR/401998668873?hash=item5d98fce449:g:WpkAAOSwzNFd9eyG

I'm curious what the car is and why it was in Oregon.

Any opinions?



Ed

Edward Sutorik

Craig Zeni
 

On Dec 15, 2019, at 3:31 PM, main@RealSTMFC.groups.io wrote:

6a. Odd (to me) Monon car
From: spsalso <Edwardsutorik@...>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:15:11 EST

In the slide below, there's an odd looking Monon car just behind the loco. Photo was taken at Salem, Oregon.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Duplicate-Slide-SP-S-Spokane-Portland-Seattle-ALCO-RS2-64-W-Train-Salem-OR/401998668873?hash=item5d98fce449:g:WpkAAOSwzNFd9eyG

I'm curious what the car is and why it was in Oregon.

Any opinions?

Ed
Not opinion, but fact...it's not Oregon. It's Salem, Indiana. The Monon leased s few SP&S RS-2s in the 1960s. The odd car is what's called a Rider Caboose...a 'front end' caboose was required by Indiana state law for trains longer than 65 cars.

Seth Lakin
 

Yes Salem, Indiana on the Monon. The Monon built in the company shops these “head end cabooses”. They housed the head end brakeman and any LCL that may be carried to be distributed along the line. They were typically used on the wayfreight trains that ran each section of the line. I would have to dig my notes out but there were 6-8 of them built in the late 40’s from flats. 

Seth Lakin
Michigan City IN

Brian Termunde
 

I'm no expert, but it looks like a rider car that the Monon used to obey Indiana's Full Crew laws.

What the heck it's doing in Salem is beyond me though!

Take Care,
 
Brian R. Termunde
Midvale, Utah