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Photo: DL&W 70793


Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: DL&W 70793

Nice shot of this car. Is it a flat car or a gondola?

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-26-19/X6139.jpg

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


mel perry
 

definitely a gondola
mel perry

On Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 11:04 AM Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: DL&W 70793

Nice shot of this car. Is it a flat car or a gondola?

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-26-19/X6139.jpg

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Matthew Hurst
 

This is a drop bottom gon. Note the hopper bottoms and the door mechanisms on the sides.

Matthew Hurst
Modeling the late great PRR and the tiny H&BTM in the late 40's



On December 28, 2019, at 2:04 PM, "Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io" <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:


Photo: DL&W 70793

Nice shot of this car. Is it a flat car or a gondola?

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-26-19/X6139.jpg

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


mofwcaboose <MOFWCABOOSE@...>
 

Listed in 1919 ORER as "Hopper, twin, steel underframe".

John C. La Rue, Jr. 
Bonita Sptings, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: mel perry <clipper841@...>
To: main <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Sat, Dec 28, 2019 2:27 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: DL&W 70793

definitely a gondola
mel perry

On Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 11:04 AM Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
Photo: DL&W 70793
Nice shot of this car. Is it a flat car or a gondola?
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Mel and Bob,

I'd go with gondola too. The car obviously was constructed as a single piece, rather than a box added to a flat car. I don't see actual stake pockets here, just the stake permanently mounted to the side sills. Also note that it has some sort of dump mechanism. That said, how is this car classified in the ORERs of the time?

The Western Pacific had some GB gondolas rebuilt in 1947 from Pullman 1915 single-sheathed boxcars (series 15001) with a permanent box structure. They are later described in company training materials as "Flat car with sideboards". Here's the quote: " . . . 31 rebuilt Western Pacific Maintenance of Way cars, numbers M.W. 6101 to M.W. 6131 inclusive, are called 'sideboard flats'. Sides are about 27" high above floor. Do not confuse with gondolas."

By 1949 all but one had been removed from the ORER listing. I suspect they were a stop-gap solution to a mill gondola shortage, but their 1915 underframes weren't up to the strain. These cars served the WP until the end in work train service. At least a half-dozen went to various preservation lines and museums for conversion to open passenger cars in the 1980s and continue to soldier on. The WP also had a small number of 50' flat cars equipped with temporary box structures at about this time in mill service. These were true sideboard flats.

Yours Aye,

Mungo Napier, Laird of Mallard Lodge  🦆


On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 2:27 PM mel perry <clipper841@...> wrote:
definitely a gondola
mel perry

On Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 11:04 AM Bob Chaparro via Groups.Io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Photo: DL&W 70793

Nice shot of this car. Is it a flat car or a gondola?

http://lists.railfan.net/erielackphoto.cgi?erielack-12-26-19/X6139.jpg

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Tim O'Connor
 

I think it's been said before - a GB gondola is a car with ends, sides, no roof, and a flat,
solid bottom for cargo space. The height of the sides, or ends, or whether the car was purpose built
or rebuilt from a flat car is irrelevant. Descriptions of ARA/AAR car classes can be found in the
equipment registers.

On 12/29/2019 5:40 AM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Mel and Bob,

I'd go with gondola too. [snip]
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Eric Hansmann
 

These MCB/ARA/AAR car codes are a moving target. Designations depend upon era and what the railroad applies as the designation.

In this specific case (DL&W 70793), the MCB designation for DL&W 70000-70999 is listed as HT in the October 1926 ORER. Under the Markings and Kind of Car column for this series, the cars are noted as Hopper, Twin, (Wood) Steel Undfr. I do not have a 1927 or 1928 ORER to compare the data. The June 1917 ORER also lists these cars as HT, but the data in the Markings column is slightly different; Hopper, Twin, Steel Underframe.

The AAR Mechanical Designation information on Ian Cranstone's website has a few HT entries.

HT - Hopper (Twin). Similar to ordinary hopper, only equipped with two or more hopper doors instead of one. (from 1/17-2/26)

HT - An Open Top Car, similar in construction to the "HM" car but having more than one set of double hoppers. (from 3/27-10/28)

HT - An Open Top Self-Clearing Car, having fixed sides and ends and bottom consisting of three or more divided hoppers with doors hinged crosswise of car and dumping between rails. (from 3/29-4/99)

http://www.nakina.net/other/aartype.html

While it looks like a gondola, and may be similar to other gondolas with a GB designation, the ORER listing has these DL&W cars as HT.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2019 8:53 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: DL&W 70793


I think it's been said before - a GB gondola is a car with ends, sides, no roof, and a flat, solid bottom for cargo space. The height of the sides, or ends, or whether the car was purpose built or rebuilt from a flat car is irrelevant. Descriptions of ARA/AAR car classes can be found in the equipment registers.




On 12/29/2019 5:40 AM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Mel and Bob,

I'd go with gondola too. [snip]

--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Dave Parker
 

I found the same listings as Eric, and these cars are present in my 1930 ORER, but not my 1935.

I think they are "legitimate" class HT cars.  There is a clamshell-type hopper chute just in front of the KD air reservoir, and probably a second one hiding behind it.  The design is somewhat reminiscent of the D&H's Seley hoppers in their as-built configuration, absent the steel truss.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Bob Webber
 

I have an ACF builders photo (1907) of D&H 27507 - a definite hopper - with "xxxx hopper door service | patented"  on the side.  Very similar construction (at least given the two photos).

Most hoppers and Drop Bottom Gons had some form of patented door/opening/device signage on the car - not unlike that for MCB or other draft gear, brake beams, axles,  and other patented devices.   Were you able to look at the side of this as a new car, you'd likely see the "Hopper" lettering...although most of the time this was in 1" or 2" letters to adhere to the letter of the contracts/license/patent.

On the D&H car, there is even smaller lettering at the top of the non-brake-staff end that can not be determined (using that designation on purpose as the lettering does not appear to refer to the staff,wheel or other brake portions - the New York Brake info is lettered below that though...)



At 10:01 AM 12/29/2019, you wrote:
I found the same listings as Eric, and these cars are present in my 1930 ORER, but not my 1935.

I think they are "legitimate" class HT cars.  There is a clamshell-type hopper chute just in front of the KD air reservoir, and probably a second one hiding behind it.  The design is somewhat reminiscent of the D&H's Seley hoppers in their as-built configuration, absent the steel truss.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA

Bob Webber


mel perry
 

eric:
understand whar you are saying, question arises, in regards to the
useage of only one  set of truss
rods?, normally two sets were the
minimum, usually inside and outside,
matter of a fact, i csn only remember
one other car that had a single set,
and that was a steel framed NP reefer,
if i remember correctly, 
thanks
mel perry

On Sun, Dec 29, 2019, 7:52 AM Eric Hansmann <eric@...> wrote:
These MCB/ARA/AAR car codes are a moving target. Designations depend upon era and what the railroad applies as the designation.

In this specific case (DL&W 70793), the MCB designation for DL&W 70000-70999 is listed as HT in the October 1926 ORER. Under the Markings and Kind of Car column for this series, the cars are noted as Hopper, Twin, (Wood) Steel Undfr. I do not have a 1927 or 1928 ORER to compare the data. The June 1917 ORER also lists these cars as HT, but the data in the Markings column is slightly different; Hopper, Twin, Steel Underframe.

The AAR Mechanical Designation information on Ian Cranstone's website has a few HT entries.

HT - Hopper (Twin). Similar to ordinary hopper, only equipped with two or more hopper doors instead of one. (from 1/17-2/26)

HT - An Open Top Car, similar in construction to the "HM" car but having more than one set of double hoppers. (from 3/27-10/28)

HT - An Open Top Self-Clearing Car, having fixed sides and ends and bottom consisting of three or more divided hoppers with doors hinged crosswise of car and dumping between rails. (from 3/29-4/99)

http://www.nakina.net/other/aartype.html

While it looks like a gondola, and may be similar to other gondolas with a GB designation, the ORER listing has these DL&W cars as HT.


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN





-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2019 8:53 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: DL&W 70793


I think it's been said before - a GB gondola is a car with ends, sides, no roof, and a flat, solid bottom for cargo space. The height of the sides, or ends, or whether the car was purpose built or rebuilt from a flat car is irrelevant. Descriptions of ARA/AAR car classes can be found in the equipment registers.




On 12/29/2019 5:40 AM, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
> Mel and Bob,
>
> I'd go with gondola too. [snip]
>


--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*







Tony Thompson
 

In the early 20th century, there were cars called "hopper-bottom gondolas," that had modest amounts of slope sheets to help most of the cargo depart through the doors. In later years, the hopper definition was changed to "self clearing," meaning ALL cargo would depart by gravity. Many hopper-bottom gondolas were not entirely self-clearing and could not have been called hoppers in later years.

Tony Thompson