Topics

[Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

They look like sections of redwood pipe to me. They were common in California back in the days before they switched to concrete pipe, for water transmission.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy Jackson
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 10:35 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Here's an enlargement of 2 of the mystery load cars. Details aren't clear enough to tell what kind of loads these are, but there's 2 per car.
Andy Jackson

Santa Fe Springs CA


mopacfirst
 

That's the most plausible explanation I've heard so far.

Comparing the load to the flatcar says these things are about 4', maybe 4'-6" max, in diameter.  That's a reasonable size for water piping.  Two to a car longitudinally says they're 20' long more or less, which was and is a common length for joints of pipe.

I found a 1942 catalog of wood pipe which claimed extensive use, even at that date.  The war probably boosted its use a bit.   http://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf
Not incidentally, they also built water tanks, which if I recall correctly had some use on railroads when they used those external combustion locomotives.

I also ran across this photo -- http://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf

Ron Merrick, piping engineer


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Ron, and All;

To add: After the Loma Prieta earthquake, I was assigned to damage assessment in the Santa Cruz mountains outside Santa Cruz, CA. Even at that late date, there were water districts that had redwood water tanks and redwood water lines, that I assessed damage to, and wrote up for FEMA funding for repair. They were remarkably durable, unlike concrete or masonry. One large redwood tank above Scotts Valley, had slid partly off its foundation, but still had most of its water inside. Remarkable.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of mopacfirst
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 10:32 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

That's the most plausible explanation I've heard so far.

Comparing the load to the flatcar says these things are about 4', maybe 4'-6" max, in diameter. That's a reasonable size for water piping. Two to a car longitudinally says they're 20' long more or less, which was and is a common length for joints of pipe.

I found a 1942 catalog of wood pipe which claimed extensive use, even at that date. The war probably boosted its use a bit. Blockedhttp://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf
Not incidentally, they also built water tanks, which if I recall correctly had some use on railroads when they used those external combustion locomotives.

I also ran across this photo -- Blockedhttp://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf

Ron Merrick, piping engineer


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
 

Friends,

The idea of these being redwood pipes now makes more sense than spools of wire. Even more sense when I remembered that there once was a factory near Antioch, California on the ATSF that made redwood pipes. 

And lookie what I found:


http://www.sandiegoyesterday.com/?tag=redwood-pipe . This one is big enough to be one of the pipes on the flat cars.


Some of these systems endured for years. Although not redwood, you can still see miles of wooden flumes that fed several PG&E powerhouses along the Truckee River between Truckee and Reno from the windows of the California Zephyr. I think those flumes are all dead now, but they were still being maintained into the late 20th century.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆


On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:49 AM Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
Ron, and All;

To add:  After the Loma Prieta earthquake, I was assigned to damage assessment in the Santa Cruz mountains outside Santa Cruz, CA.  Even at that late date, there were water districts that had redwood water tanks and redwood water lines, that I assessed damage to, and wrote up for FEMA funding for repair.  They were remarkably durable, unlike concrete or masonry.  One large redwood tank above Scotts Valley, had slid partly off its foundation, but still had most of its water inside.  Remarkable.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of mopacfirst
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 10:32 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

That's the most plausible explanation I've heard so far.

Comparing the load to the flatcar says these things are about 4', maybe 4'-6" max, in diameter.  That's a reasonable size for water piping.  Two to a car longitudinally says they're 20' long more or less, which was and is a common length for joints of pipe.

I found a 1942 catalog of wood pipe which claimed extensive use, even at that date.  The war probably boosted its use a bit.   Blockedhttp://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf
Not incidentally, they also built water tanks, which if I recall correctly had some use on railroads when they used those external combustion locomotives.

I also ran across this photo -- Blockedhttp://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf

Ron Merrick, piping engineer





Bob Webber
 

Garth, they still dig up redwood pipes in Chicago.   There are likely hundreds of installations still (mostly) intact.  They are a good (if you can get around the waste and ecological issues) "pipes".  

Wood survives a lot longer in some areas.  Telegraph poles from the 1880s are still to be found around Marshall Pass on the D&RG.   Flumes can also be found in this and other areas.  And the first long distance transmission line was in Western Colorado along the RGS - requiring flumes, poles, cross arms, etc.    Dense old growth wood can stand up to the elements incredibly well, as compared to newer growth wood.

At 10:23 AM 2/21/2020, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford wrote:
Friends,

The idea of these being redwood pipes now makes more sense than spools of wire. Even more sense when I remembered that there once was a factory near Antioch, California on the ATSF that made redwood pipes.Â

And lookie what I found:

https://www.mendorailhistory.org/1_redwoods/redwood_pipes.htm

http://www.sandiegoyesterday.com/?tag=redwood-pipe . This one is big enough to be one of the pipes on the flat cars.

https://www.citylab.com/design/2016/10/san-francisco-1939-worlds-fair-relic-discovered-construction/505076/ Â

Some of these systems endured for years. Although not redwood, you can still see miles of wooden flumes that fed several PG&E powerhouses along the Truckee River between Truckee and Reno from the windows of the California Zephyr. I think those flumes are all dead now, but they were still being maintained into the late 20th century.

Yours Aye,

Garth Groff  🦆

Bob Webber


Tim O'Connor
 

Redwood pipe was used in the early years of the 20th century but the ATSF photo appears to
be from at least the 1940's if not later.

Here is a 1908 photo - https://www.sewerhistory.org/images/bm/bmc2/1908_bmc202.jpg

The use of magnificent old growth redwood for sewer pipes just makes me ill to think about. :-(

(yes, I'm a tree hugger)

On 2/21/2020 9:34 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:
They look like sections of redwood pipe to me. They were common in California back in the days before they switched to concrete pipe, for water transmission.

Elden Gatwood

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Andy Jackson
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 10:35 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Santa Fe Freight Near Victorville - Mystery Loads

Here's an enlargement of 2 of the mystery load cars. Details aren't clear enough to tell what kind of loads these are, but there's 2 per car.
Andy Jackson

Santa Fe Springs CA






--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Tim O'Connor
 

Thanks Rob for finding that. I had no idea wood pipe was still being manufactured in 1942.

I imagine that the war had a lot to do with it! :-)

Tim O'Connor

On 2/21/2020 10:31 AM, mopacfirst wrote:
That's the most plausible explanation I've heard so far.

Comparing the load to the flatcar says these things are about 4', maybe 4'-6" max, in diameter.  That's a reasonable size for water piping.  Two to a car longitudinally says they're 20' long more or less, which was and is a common length for joints of pipe.

I found a 1942 catalog of wood pipe which claimed extensive use, even at that date.  The war probably boosted its use a bit. http://www.waterworkshistory.us/tech/Pipe/1942WoodPipe.pdf
Not incidentally, they also built water tanks, which if I recall correctly had some use on railroads when they used those external combustion locomotives.

Ron Merrick, piping engineer
--
*Tim O'Connor*
*Sterling, Massachusetts*


Curt Fortenberry
 

Wood stave pipes are still being used here in Alaska.  It was still available up until recently and may still be in parts of the world. Performs well in old climates.


Curt Fortenberry