Topics

Consumer Warning Labels


Charlie Vlk
 

All-

As a lifelong Model Railroader who now has spent a longer time than my first  in my second career (25 years and counting) in the Model Railroad Industry, I’ve heard the comment about labeling era on product for years.

Having worked in R&D for a number of importer/manufacturers I know how difficult it is to assemble and digest the information on the myriad range of eras, railroads, road numbers, paint schemes and variations thereof to make the product in the first place and would not care to try to distill that onto a label that will protect the consumer from making catastrophic wrong purchase decisions.  And that assumes that within the company hierarchy the marketing people in charge of putting together packaging and advertising actually listen to the R&D people in the first place.

The problem as I see it is that the people who care about freight cars (this group representing a large percentage of them) likely would know better or how to determine the approximate dates that a given car or paint scheme would be running the part of the rail network that they are interested in. 

I think it is better to let the consumer educate themselves to the level that they need….I could see hours of additional research on every product number to try to determine if AB&C #143233 in the mauve scheme ran under that number in that paint job with the particular stenciling applied…..if such information can even be had.   Would such information on a product cause people to buy more or give them an excuse not to make a purchase?   What would be next…..rejecting product as being “out of era” because COTS stenciling on brake equipment or reweigh dates are out of range?  

Yes, a few of us model on a tight range of dates (or even ONE day…Hi Jack!!) and those likely don’t wait for the label to say its okay to buy something….they do the work and justify the purchase within their own guidelines.

I just hope that California doesn’t get the idea that this needs their protection.   When I was at Kato we spent days on adding the legal notice to packaging because the brass used in flywheels contained a very small percentage of lead to make it machinable which was a big threat to the denizens of the Golden State who apparently eat their trains or throw them away in leaching landfills.

Charlie Vlk

   

 


Hudson Leighton <hudsonl@...>
 

If I ever go into the model train business, my labels are going to say:

"It is  Illegal to possess, purchase, sell or transfer this product in the State of California."

-Hudson


mel perry
 

bare in mind gentlemen, this warning was created to protect the consumer,
the rampant useage, is a result of shyster lawyers, who thought they had
found a loophole, after losing the case,
most manufacturers found in cheaper
to enclose this warning in their products,
rather than paying lawyer fees, in
defending their businesses or paying
nuisance fees to "settle out of court"
to a bunch of shyster lawyers, i'll bet
your states don't give s rats ass about
your health, what you do know will kill
you, remember to save a copy of this
warning for your casket
:-)
mel perry

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020, 1:07 PM Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:

All-

As a lifelong Model Railroader who now has spent a longer time than my first  in my second career (25 years and counting) in the Model Railroad Industry, I’ve heard the comment about labeling era on product for years.

Having worked in R&D for a number of importer/manufacturers I know how difficult it is to assemble and digest the information on the myriad range of eras, railroads, road numbers, paint schemes and variations thereof to make the product in the first place and would not care to try to distill that onto a label that will protect the consumer from making catastrophic wrong purchase decisions.  And that assumes that within the company hierarchy the marketing people in charge of putting together packaging and advertising actually listen to the R&D people in the first place.

The problem as I see it is that the people who care about freight cars (this group representing a large percentage of them) likely would know better or how to determine the approximate dates that a given car or paint scheme would be running the part of the rail network that they are interested in. 

I think it is better to let the consumer educate themselves to the level that they need….I could see hours of additional research on every product number to try to determine if AB&C #143233 in the mauve scheme ran under that number in that paint job with the particular stenciling applied…..if such information can even be had.   Would such information on a product cause people to buy more or give them an excuse not to make a purchase?   What would be next…..rejecting product as being “out of era” because COTS stenciling on brake equipment or reweigh dates are out of range?  

Yes, a few of us model on a tight range of dates (or even ONE day…Hi Jack!!) and those likely don’t wait for the label to say its okay to buy something….they do the work and justify the purchase within their own guidelines.

I just hope that California doesn’t get the idea that this needs their protection.   When I was at Kato we spent days on adding the legal notice to packaging because the brass used in flywheels contained a very small percentage of lead to make it machinable which was a big threat to the denizens of the Golden State who apparently eat their trains or throw them away in leaching landfills.

Charlie Vlk

   

 


Roger Perkins
 

I am an industrial toxicologist by profession and was board certified until I retired.
Until mid 2005, I was employed by an multinational corporation.
My position involved making certain the company's products were
labeled correctly for all locations where they were offered for sale.

Before new products were introduced, I evaluated the ingredients and
made suggestions that certain ingredients be changed if they were hazardous.
California Proposition 65 is one of the State regulations that has requirements for labeling
that seem ridiculous to me on the surface. I just purchased some white hobby that has such
a label because it contains titanium dioxide.   

I contend that companies should have every new and modified product assessed by professional qualified toxicologists. 


Matthew Hurst
 

Sorry but I gotta ask....

What does this have to do with Steam Era Freight Car Modeling?

Matthew Hurst


On Mar 8, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Roger Perkins <roger39perkins@...> wrote:


I am an industrial toxicologist by profession and was board certified until I retired.
Until mid 2005, I was employed by an multinational corporation.
My position involved making certain the company's products were
labeled correctly for all locations where they were offered for sale.

Before new products were introduced, I evaluated the ingredients and
made suggestions that certain ingredients be changed if they were hazardous.
California Proposition 65 is one of the State regulations that has requirements for labeling
that seem ridiculous to me on the surface. I just purchased some white hobby that has such
a label because it contains titanium dioxide.   

I contend that companies should have every new and modified product assessed by professional qualified toxicologists. 


Tim O'Connor
 


It comes up because certain paints and adhesives are banned or hard to get in some places. To enforce the bans or restrictions a system of labels is required. It's about public health, a very hot topic right now.


-----Original Message-----

From: handbt33@...
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: 2020-03-08 10:23:46 AM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Consumer Warning Labels

Sorry but I gotta ask....

What does this have to do with Steam Era Freight Car Modeling?

Matthew Hurst


On Mar 8, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Roger Perkins <roger39perkins@...> wrote:


I am an industrial toxicologist by profession and was board certified until I retired.
Until mid 2005, I was employed by an multinational corporation.
My position involved making certain the company's products were
labeled correctly for all locations where they were offered for sale.

Before new products were introduced, I evaluated the ingredients and
made suggestions that certain ingredients be changed if they were hazardous.
California Proposition 65 is one of the State regulations that has requirements for labeling
that seem ridiculous to me on the surface. I just purchased some white hobby that has such
a label because it contains titanium dioxide.   

I contend that companies should have every new and modified product assessed by professional qualified toxicologists. 




--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Jon Miller
 

On 3/8/2020 7:20 AM, Matthew Hurst wrote:
What does this have to do with Steam Era Freight Car Modeling?

    Well it a reason it's hard to impossible to buy MEK, in CA, which  is my favorite glue for polystyrene.

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Matthew Hurst
 

Well... true.

You want me to smuggle some in to you? Hmm?

Matthew Hurst

On Mar 8, 2020, at 12:04 PM, Jon Miller <atsfus@...> wrote:


Jack Burgess
 

Actually, MEK isn't illegal in California. I suspect that buyers were using
if when other products were available. I've heard that it is still available
in places that sell automobile paint.

I bought two gallons of MEK before it was no longer available...I didn't
want to run out!

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Matthew Hurst
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 9:07 AM
To: Jon Miller
Cc: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Consumer Warning Labels

Well... true.

You want me to smuggle some in to you? Hmm?

Matthew Hurst


Nelson Moyer
 

Hope you protected your MEK from evaporation. I bought a quart and decanted an ounce into a repurposed paint bottle. A couple of year later when I needed to refill the bottle, I found the can half full. The cap was tight, but I still had evaporative loss.

Nelson Moyer

On Mar 8, 2020, at 9:19 AM, Jack Burgess <jack@...> wrote:

Actually, MEK isn't illegal in California. I suspect that buyers were using
if when other products were available. I've heard that it is still available
in places that sell automobile paint.

I bought two gallons of MEK before it was no longer available...I didn't
want to run out!

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Matthew Hurst
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 9:07 AM
To: Jon Miller
Cc: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Consumer Warning Labels

Well... true.

You want me to smuggle some in to you? Hmm?

Matthew Hurst




Jack Burgess
 

I keep the MEK in the original metal cans and decanter a small amount into a
plastic bottle (it has been proven to not evaporate from it) and then use it
to put a 1/8" of so in my plastic dispenser (which does evaporate over
time).

Jack Burgess

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 9:26 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Consumer Warning Labels

Hope you protected your MEK from evaporation. I bought a quart and decanted
an ounce into a repurposed paint bottle. A couple of year later when I
needed to refill the bottle, I found the can half full. The cap was tight,
but I still had evaporative loss.

Nelson Moyer

On Mar 8, 2020, at 9:19 AM, Jack Burgess <jack@...>
wrote:

Actually, MEK isn't illegal in California. I suspect that buyers were
using
if when other products were available. I've heard that it is still
available
in places that sell automobile paint.

I bought two gallons of MEK before it was no longer available...I didn't
want to run out!

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Matthew Hurst
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 9:07 AM
To: Jon Miller
Cc: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Consumer Warning Labels

Well... true.

You want me to smuggle some in to you? Hmm?

Matthew Hurst




Tom Madden
 

When my employer closed down my prototype printed circuit lab in 1992 I liberated a 3/4 full gallon jug of MEK that was slated for disposal. I've only used it occasionally since I began resin casting, but it's still good 28 years later with minimal evaporation loss. It's in a glass jug with a lined plastic screw cap in our unheated garage.

Tom Madden


Nelson Moyer
 

I guess all cans aren’t created equal. The cap on my Sunnyside MEK let the MEK out very slowly, despite being tight. I haven’t had that problem with acetone or lacquer thinner.

I’ll decant the next can into a glass chemical bottle with a neoprene lined plastic cap.

Nelson Moyer

On Mar 8, 2020, at 2:41 PM, Jack Burgess <jack@...> wrote:

I keep the MEK in the original metal cans and decanter a small amount into a
plastic bottle (it has been proven to not evaporate from it) and then use it
to put a 1/8" of so in my plastic dispenser (which does evaporate over
time).

Jack Burgess

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Nelson Moyer
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 9:26 AM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Consumer Warning Labels

Hope you protected your MEK from evaporation. I bought a quart and decanted
an ounce into a repurposed paint bottle. A couple of year later when I
needed to refill the bottle, I found the can half full. The cap was tight,
but I still had evaporative loss.

Nelson Moyer

On Mar 8, 2020, at 9:19 AM, Jack Burgess <jack@...>
wrote:

Actually, MEK isn't illegal in California. I suspect that buyers were
using
if when other products were available. I've heard that it is still
available
in places that sell automobile paint.

I bought two gallons of MEK before it was no longer available...I didn't
want to run out!

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Matthew Hurst
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 9:07 AM
To: Jon Miller
Cc: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Consumer Warning Labels

Well... true.

You want me to smuggle some in to you? Hmm?

Matthew Hurst









Rod Miller
 

On 3/7/20 2:03 PM, Hudson Leighton wrote:
If I ever go into the model train business, my labels are going to say:
"It is  Illegal to possess, purchase, sell or transfer this product in the State of California."
-Hudson
Now if California could come up with a foolproof (there's the rub) way to receive money from those who make fun of it, all CA taxes could be
done away with. 8-)

--
Rod Miller
Handcraftsman
===
Custom 2-rail O Scale Models: Drives,
Repairs, Steam Loco Building, More
http://www.rodmiller.com


Bob Chaparro
 

MEK and several other chemicals thought to be banned in California are still available, but not in the smaller consumer-size containers. The approach is that industrial and commercial users are more observant of fume control and proper disposal than household users.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Mont Switzer
 

Tom and all,

 

I have had a similar experience with MEK.  My local hardware store (now gone) was nice enough to special order MEK for me, but I had to take a full case consisting of four 1 gallon cans.  I’m still on the first can which lives in my garage.

 

I have a standing offer with all local friends.  FREE MEK.  Bring your own tight seal jar.

 

Last time I was through the big box store I saw that they now have MEK in 1 quart containers.  That was not the case 15-20 years ago.

 

Mont

 

Montford L. Switzer

President

Switzer Tank Lines, Inc.

Fall Creek Leasing, LLC.

mswitzer@...

(765) 836-2914

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tom Madden via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 5:53 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Consumer Warning Labels

 

When my employer closed down my prototype printed circuit lab in 1992 I liberated a 3/4 full gallon jug of MEK that was slated for disposal. I've only used it occasionally since I began resin casting, but it's still good 28 years later with minimal evaporation loss. It's in a glass jug with a lined plastic screw cap in our unheated garage.

Tom Madden


Jeff
 

Yeah, I can see how it would be a royal pain to try and label stuff up... I can almost see the checkboxes:
Built date: 
Repaint Date:
(re)Weigh date:
ACI: Y/N
U-1: Y/N  
COTS: Y/N 
Consp. Stripe: Y/N
 - and that's just for a car built in or after the 60s. 

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 1:07 PM Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:

All-

As a lifelong Model Railroader who now has spent a longer time than my first  in my second career (25 years and counting) in the Model Railroad Industry, I’ve heard the comment about labeling era on product for years.

Having worked in R&D for a number of importer/manufacturers I know how difficult it is to assemble and digest the information on the myriad range of eras, railroads, road numbers, paint schemes and variations thereof to make the product in the first place and would not care to try to distill that onto a label that will protect the consumer from making catastrophic wrong purchase decisions.  And that assumes that within the company hierarchy the marketing people in charge of putting together packaging and advertising actually listen to the R&D people in the first place.

The problem as I see it is that the people who care about freight cars (this group representing a large percentage of them) likely would know better or how to determine the approximate dates that a given car or paint scheme would be running the part of the rail network that they are interested in. 

I think it is better to let the consumer educate themselves to the level that they need….I could see hours of additional research on every product number to try to determine if AB&C #143233 in the mauve scheme ran under that number in that paint job with the particular stenciling applied…..if such information can even be had.   Would such information on a product cause people to buy more or give them an excuse not to make a purchase?   What would be next…..rejecting product as being “out of era” because COTS stenciling on brake equipment or reweigh dates are out of range?  

Yes, a few of us model on a tight range of dates (or even ONE day…Hi Jack!!) and those likely don’t wait for the label to say its okay to buy something….they do the work and justify the purchase within their own guidelines.

I just hope that California doesn’t get the idea that this needs their protection.   When I was at Kato we spent days on adding the legal notice to packaging because the brass used in flywheels contained a very small percentage of lead to make it machinable which was a big threat to the denizens of the Golden State who apparently eat their trains or throw them away in leaching landfills.

Charlie Vlk

   

 



--
Jeff Shultz
http://www.shultzinfosystems.com
A railfan approaches a grade crossing hoping that there will be a train.


Brian Carlson
 

For our era you only really need build date and paint date.  Same as what Branchline provided. 

But I understand that we’re in the minority. At an open house yesterday I saw an UP diesel pulling a 5 car well stack, 3 Athearn triple dome tank cars, 2 40 ft Athearn steam cars boxcars and a center beam flat. I cringed but the owner was happy. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Mar 9, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Jeff <jeffshultz@...> wrote:


Yeah, I can see how it would be a royal pain to try and label stuff up... I can almost see the checkboxes:
Built date: 
Repaint Date:
(re)Weigh date:
ACI: Y/N
U-1: Y/N  
COTS: Y/N 
Consp. Stripe: Y/N
 - and that's just for a car built in or after the 60s. 

On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 1:07 PM Charlie Vlk <cvlk@...> wrote:

All-



Paul Woods <paul@...>
 

And at the end of the day, that's what this wonderful hobby is all about.  I reckon we should never cringe at such a sight, we should only take pride in the fact that we know better and give thanks for the good people who write books and take the time to teach us.  Once upon a time I was only dimly aware of what equipment belonged to which era and now I can make a fairly accurate estimation of the start and end dates of a particular paint scheme for the railroads around my chosen area....it all comes down to experience.

Regards
Paul Woods
NYCSHS #7172
Whangarei, NZ


On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 10:30 AM, Brian Carlson wrote:
I cringed but the owner was happy. 

Brian J. Carlson 


Brian Termunde
 

Micro-Trains (N Scale) does this to a degree. See attached - sorry that this particular car is outside our time frame, but it does show what they list.

Take Care,
 
Brian R. Termunde
Midvale, Utah