Help with decals


Chuck Cover
 

Group,

I have problems with the decals on some of my freight car builds.  I have attached a photo of one of my models and in places you can see the decal film between the lettering where it ideally should be invisible.  On some models this does not occur, on others, as this D&H boxcar, there is some sheen visible.  Are there specific steps that can be taken to prevent this?  If this occurs after decal application, are there ways to make it disappear?  Thanks in advance.

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM


Pierre Oliver
 

What paint did you use? And how long did you let it dry?
If it's Scalecoat you need to let it fully cure for 3-4 days.
It looks like lots of blushing, brush MicroSol(red bottle) and poke at all the blushing with a sharp pin or knife tip. You want setting solution in behind the entire decal.
It takes persistence

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 2020-04-21 3:10 p.m., Chuck Cover wrote:

Group,

I have problems with the decals on some of my freight car builds.  I have attached a photo of one of my models and in places you can see the decal film between the lettering where it ideally should be invisible.  On some models this does not occur, on others, as this D&H boxcar, there is some sheen visible.  Are there specific steps that can be taken to prevent this?  If this occurs after decal application, are there ways to make it disappear?  Thanks in advance.

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM


O Fenton Wells
 

Looks like Pierre has the right answer.
Fenton

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:16 PM Pierre Oliver <pierre.oliver@...> wrote:

What paint did you use? And how long did you let it dry?
If it's Scalecoat you need to let it fully cure for 3-4 days.
It looks like lots of blushing, brush MicroSol(red bottle) and poke at all the blushing with a sharp pin or knife tip. You want setting solution in behind the entire decal.
It takes persistence

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 2020-04-21 3:10 p.m., Chuck Cover wrote:
Group,

I have problems with the decals on some of my freight car builds.  I have attached a photo of one of my models and in places you can see the decal film between the lettering where it ideally should be invisible.  On some models this does not occur, on others, as this D&H boxcar, there is some sheen visible.  Are there specific steps that can be taken to prevent this?  If this occurs after decal application, are there ways to make it disappear?  Thanks in advance.

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Todd Sullivan
 

Hi Chuck,

I recently built a 3D printed Utah Coal Route gondola, and had the same problem with half the decal pieces I put on the model.  The 3D printing of the model leaves small striations in the surface, which were still evident after painting with rattle can Tamiya Semi-Gloss Black.  The decals definitely do not like that kind of surface!  The silvering is caused by air underneath the decal film, so we need to let the air out.  I am still working on getting all of them to adhere well, and I am using the technique suggested by Pierre: poke and/or score the decal with the tip of a very sharp hobby knife (Xacto #11 blade), then put decal setting solution (Walthers Solvaset in my case) on top and around the edges of the decal.  It takes multiple applications of the setting solution to get the decals to settle down, and you have to watch for the silvering underneath throughout the process.  Persistence does pay off! 

I hope this helps, and good luck with getting the air out!

Todd Sullivan


Tim O'Connor
 


Yep - what Pierre said!

And ALSO -

use fresh distilled water - tepid warm water seems to work better

make sure the decal slides off the paper or is even floating in the water
  before you pick it up with tweezers - don't drag it off the paper

make sure the car side is clean and free of ALL particles - and of course
  a glossy smooth finish is best (easiest)

wet the car side before applying the decal and use your solution generously
  and (capillary action) siphon off excess slowly with a Q tip or piece of paper towel
  while making fine adjustments to the location

let it mostly dry and adhere, and wet it again - at this stage I like to use
a strong setting solution. I may do this several times with a stubborn decal or
trying to conform to a rivet or rib






On 4/21/2020 3:16 PM, Pierre Oliver wrote:

What paint did you use? And how long did you let it dry?
If it's Scalecoat you need to let it fully cure for 3-4 days.
It looks like lots of blushing, brush MicroSol(red bottle) and poke at all the blushing with a sharp pin or knife tip. You want setting solution in behind the entire decal.
It takes persistence

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 2020-04-21 3:10 p.m., Chuck Cover wrote:
Group,

I have problems with the decals on some of my freight car builds.  I have attached a photo of one of my models and in places you can see the decal film between the lettering where it ideally should be invisible.  On some models this does not occur, on others, as this D&H boxcar, there is some sheen visible.  Are there specific steps that can be taken to prevent this?  If this occurs after decal application, are there ways to make it disappear?  Thanks in advance.

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Todd Sullivan
 

Tim's advice is good - thanks, Tim for adding more details and tips.

I keep finding that, with today's ever-thinner decals, I cannot reliably slide the decal off in the water and pick it up with tweezers and lay it on the model.  The darned decals always curl under, and no amount of prodding gets them to 'unfold'.  So, I pick up the decal and its backing paper and put them in a small pool of water on the car side, then gently prod and pull the decal off the backing.  Of course, this lets in demon backing paper 'dust' which I can rarely spot until the decal has dried.  I've tried flowing more water over the car surface to wash away such detritus before adding setting fluid, which helps.  Guess I need to try harder.

Todd Sullivan


hubert mask
 

Float the decal with micro set and draw the fluid out with a paper towel on the edge.  If you poke the decal with a knife it will show up when it drys.  Consider the type of paint.  It works better on gloss paints then tone it down with over spray will hide the film hopefully.    Main things is patients


Hubert Mask


On Apr 21, 2020, at 3:31 PM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Looks like Pierre has the right answer.
Fenton

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:16 PM Pierre Oliver <pierre.oliver@...> wrote:

What paint did you use? And how long did you let it dry?
If it's Scalecoat you need to let it fully cure for 3-4 days.
It looks like lots of blushing, brush MicroSol(red bottle) and poke at all the blushing with a sharp pin or knife tip. You want setting solution in behind the entire decal.
It takes persistence

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com
On 2020-04-21 3:10 p.m., Chuck Cover wrote:
Group,

I have problems with the decals on some of my freight car builds.  I have attached a photo of one of my models and in places you can see the decal film between the lettering where it ideally should be invisible.  On some models this does not occur, on others, as this D&H boxcar, there is some sheen visible.  Are there specific steps that can be taken to prevent this?  If this occurs after decal application, are there ways to make it disappear?  Thanks in advance.

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM



--
Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd
Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Tim O'Connor
 

Todd

I find that I can pick up tiny decals with a fine, wet paintbrush, and transfer
them to the car with that - they slide smoothy off the wet brush

With older decals, and TINY bits, I often pre-treat them with Microscale liquid decal film.
I've not had problems making the film 'disappear'

No one has mentioned
RUNNING colors. I have had dark colors of large decals (like
giant UNION PACIFIC letters) actually RUN while the decal is wet! Quick, grab the paper
towels and Q-Tips and soak it up!!

So be prepared ! :-D




On 4/21/2020 3:51 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io wrote:
Tim's advice is good - thanks, Tim for adding more details and tips.

I keep finding that, with today's ever-thinner decals, I cannot reliably slide the decal off in the water and pick it up with tweezers and lay it on the model.  The darned decals always curl under, and no amount of prodding gets them to 'unfold'.  So, I pick up the decal and its backing paper and put them in a small pool of water on the car side, then gently prod and pull the decal off the backing.  Of course, this lets in demon backing paper 'dust' which I can rarely spot until the decal has dried.  I've tried flowing more water over the car surface to wash away such detritus before adding setting fluid, which helps.  Guess I need to try harder.

Todd Sullivan

--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Tim’s additions to Pierre’s basic recommendations are what I do as well.  IMHO it’s essential to float the decal in a puddle on the car side, and get it to settle down to the surface by wicking the water out at the edges.  I usually use a brushfull of the setting solution in that puddle, but that’s only an addition to the distilled water to begin with.

 

Getting the decal OFF the backing paper, floating in the dish, is good, as most decals have some unnecessary adhesive on the back side.  That adhesive isn’t really necessary, since we’re going to overcoat everything later anyway.  But be careful when picking up the floating decal – it can wrap around the tweezers/brush/toothpick and it can be a real bear to get it straightened out again.  Put it back in the water and poke it until it unfurls.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 3:40 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Help with decals

 


Yep - what Pierre said!

And ALSO -

use fresh distilled water - tepid warm water seems to work better

make sure the decal slides off the paper or is even floating in the water
  before you pick it up with tweezers - don't drag it off the paper

make sure the car side is clean and free of ALL particles - and of course
  a glossy smooth finish is best (easiest)

wet the car side before applying the decal and use your solution generously
  and (capillary action) siphon off excess slowly with a Q tip or piece of paper towel
  while making fine adjustments to the location

let it mostly dry and adhere, and wet it again - at this stage I like to use
a strong setting solution. I may do this several times with a stubborn decal or
trying to conform to a rivet or rib






On 4/21/2020 3:16 PM, Pierre Oliver wrote:

What paint did you use? And how long did you let it dry?
If it's Scalecoat you need to let it fully cure for 3-4 days.
It looks like lots of blushing, brush MicroSol(red bottle) and poke at all the blushing with a sharp pin or knife tip. You want setting solution in behind the entire decal.
It takes persistence

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com

On 2020-04-21 3:10 p.m., Chuck Cover wrote:

Group,

I have problems with the decals on some of my freight car builds.  I have attached a photo of one of my models and in places you can see the decal film between the lettering where it ideally should be invisible.  On some models this does not occur, on others, as this D&H boxcar, there is some sheen visible.  Are there specific steps that can be taken to prevent this?  If this occurs after decal application, are there ways to make it disappear?  Thanks in advance.

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Overspray, in my experience, seldom conceals the blushing.  Fix that first with the poking and slicing with the sharp edge.  I use a single edge razor blade.  Sharper than any exacto knife.

 

Schuyler

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of hubert mask
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 3:54 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Help with decals

 

Float the decal with micro set and draw the fluid out with a paper towel on the edge.  If you poke the decal with a knife it will show up when it drys.  Consider the type of paint.  It works better on gloss paints then tone it down with over spray will hide the film hopefully.    Main things is patients

 

 

Hubert Mask


On Apr 21, 2020, at 3:31 PM, O Fenton Wells <srrfan1401@...> wrote:

Looks like Pierre has the right answer.

Fenton

 

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 3:16 PM Pierre Oliver <pierre.oliver@...> wrote:

What paint did you use? And how long did you let it dry?
If it's Scalecoat you need to let it fully cure for 3-4 days.
It looks like lots of blushing, brush MicroSol(red bottle) and poke at all the blushing with a sharp pin or knife tip. You want setting solution in behind the entire decal.
It takes persistence

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com

On 2020-04-21 3:10 p.m., Chuck Cover wrote:

Group,

I have problems with the decals on some of my freight car builds.  I have attached a photo of one of my models and in places you can see the decal film between the lettering where it ideally should be invisible.  On some models this does not occur, on others, as this D&H boxcar, there is some sheen visible.  Are there specific steps that can be taken to prevent this?  If this occurs after decal application, are there ways to make it disappear?  Thanks in advance.

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM


 

--

Fenton Wells
250 Frye Rd

Pinehurst NC 28374
910-420-8106
srrfan1401@...


Chuck Cover
 

Thank you to everyone who has responded to my questions.  I have a couple of steps that I can now try to get rid of some of that silvering.  The car pictured was painted with Scalecoat and I did not let it dry for the time suggested but it did dry in the Santa Fe sun for at least a day.  I will not rush it in the future.

 

A couple of other questions have come to mind.  Which decal setting solution is favored, Walthers Solvaset or Microscale Micro Sol?  On cars that I have already put Dullcoat over the decals, is there a way to get back to the decals and work to get rid the silvering?

 

Again thank you for your input.

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Already dullcoated . . .

*sigh*

Yes, it can be done, but it ain’t easy, and it can be a bit scary.  As I mentioned before I use a single edge razor blade, as it’s sharper than most anything else.  Pull the blade directly though the area that’s showing the blush, hard enough to get through both the dullcoat and into the decal.  Then flood the area with the decal setting solution, and see if it will bleed through your cut under the decal.  If so, that’s good, but it will take a longer time to dry  You’ll probably have to do this a fair number of times.

 

This also tends to result in a car that would benefit from some strategic weathering.  OTOH, you may find that once you’ve dealt with the blushing, you could overspray a light coat of the base color to “fade” the lettering some, and hopefully minimize the blushing. 

 

To respond to your query about which decal solution, I use both, favoring Solvaset for the “sticker” level of decal, and using the Micro Sol/Micro set system for more delicate decals.  Champ Decal Set was my favorite, though.

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Chuck Cover
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 6:37 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Help with decals

 

Thank you to everyone who has responded to my questions.  I have a couple of steps that I can now try to get rid of some of that silvering.  The car pictured was painted with Scalecoat and I did not let it dry for the time suggested but it did dry in the Santa Fe sun for at least a day.  I will not rush it in the future.

 

A couple of other questions have come to mind.  Which decal setting solution is favored, Walthers Solvaset or Microscale Micro Sol?  On cars that I have already put Dullcoat over the decals, is there a way to get back to the decals and work to get rid the silvering?

 

Again thank you for your input.

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


hubert mask
 

Stay away from solva set. It loves to eat most decal paper.  Micro set is not as harsh and gives you time to play with the decal until you get it set.

Hubert Mask


On Apr 21, 2020, at 6:37 PM, Chuck Cover <chuck.cover@...> wrote:

Thank you to everyone who has responded to my questions.  I have a couple of steps that I can now try to get rid of some of that silvering.  The car pictured was painted with Scalecoat and I did not let it dry for the time suggested but it did dry in the Santa Fe sun for at least a day.  I will not rush it in the future.

 

A couple of other questions have come to mind.  Which decal setting solution is favored, Walthers Solvaset or Microscale Micro Sol?  On cars that I have already put Dullcoat over the decals, is there a way to get back to the decals and work to get rid the silvering?

 

Again thank you for your input.

 

Chuck Cover

Santa Fe, NM


Dave Parker
 

Chuck:

I agree that Solvaset seems to be a bit stronger than the Microscale products (and red is stronger than blue).  I haven't had it eat any decals, but then I don't use it very often.

I agree with Schuyler but actually find double edge razor blades (the ones for shaving) to be finer and sharper.  The SERBs that I have bought in bulk are, I think, more suited to paint scrapers and the like.  YMMV.

Best regards.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Tony Thompson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

No one has mentioned RUNNING colors. I have had dark colors of large decals (like
giant UNION PACIFIC letters) actually RUN while the decal is wet! Quick, grab the paper
towels and Q-Tips and soak it up!!

     What a GREAT technique for deteriorating lettering! Sounds terrific!

Tony Thompson




Mark Vinski
 

When decals float off of their backing paper in water I use a wide tool such as a large Xacto blade, wide paint brush, or a styrene strip to retrieve them. The film does not curl around a wide tool as easily as it does around a narrow one.

I've had decal ink run occasionally but it did not produce any kind of realistic effect. It looked more like a puddle of ink.

Mark Vinski


Nelson Moyer
 

I use Tru Color for most freight cars, and decal setting solutions can soften the paint with repeated applications, so I always airbrush Model Master Clear Gloss on the areas to be decaled, to produce a smooth glossy surface. I have Future, but I’ve never used it, as we tend to go with what we’re familiar with .

 

Tim pretty much reported the method I use, except I never let a decal float off of the backing paper in water. This is especially important for the new thin decals from Speedwitch, which are prone to curling and require delicate handling. I pour distilled water into a black plastic coffee container lid and let the decal soak just long enough to slide when gently touched with my fine tip blunt nose forceps, then I remove the decal while still on the backing paper and place it on a small piece of paper towel to blot of most of the water. For the thin decals, I place a drop of distilled water on the car where I intend to place the decal (it will bead on a gloss surface), place the decal and backing paper next to the drop of water, and gently slide the decal onto the car surface. Do not use a setting solution for this step with Speedwitch decals per Speedwitch instructions. Next I use a small piece of paper towel to blot off most of the water and place the decal. Then I apply a small amount of Micro Set over the decal and let it wick under the film as I make any additional adjustments to get the decal exactly where I want it. At that point, I don’t touch it again until it visibly dry. Next I wet a brush with Micro Set and gently blot the decal to rewet it, being careful not to exert pressure on the film. I touch any bubbles under the film with  the tip of the brush to push them to the edges of the film, then I let the film dry again enough to see any areas that didn’t settle over rivets or other details or into wood grooves. If settling is necessary, I switch to Micro Sol and repeat the blot technique, allowing the liquid to dry undisturbed. After the Micro Sol  is visibly dry, I inspect the decals for tiny bubbles  or areas that didn’t settle over details under a x7 Optivisor. Usually, that’s enough setting treatment. With thin decals, never try to adjust the position of a wet decal after the first Micro Sol treatment. If you find silvering or bubbles the next day after the decals are thoroughly dry, prick them with a #11 X-acto blade or a sharp fine needle and apply Micro Sol. This works after you’ve sealed the decals with Dullcote if the silvered areas aren’t too large.

 

For all other decals besides Speedwitch, I slide the decal off of the backing paper onto a drop of Micro Set on the car, wick off the excess, then place the decal quickly and let it dry. The rest of the process is as described above.

 

The only tools I use are an X-acto knife handle with a #11 blade to rough cut decals from the sheet, a single edge razor blade to close trim the decals, Dumont fine nose forceps with the tips slightly rounded off, a sharp needle mounted into the end of a ¼ in dowel ( I used my biology dissecting needle until it was no longer sharp), and #2 and 3/0 paint brushes. Supplies include distilled water, paper towels, Micro Set and Micro Sol. I have Solvaset, but I’ve only used it once for some very thick decals that Micro Sol wouldn’t settle completely.

 

The goal is to make the decal lettering look like it was painted on the car. That’s easier with thin films than thicker films, but it can be done.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim O'Connor
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 2:40 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Help with decals

 


Yep - what Pierre said!

And ALSO -

use fresh distilled water - tepid warm water seems to work better

make sure the decal slides off the paper or is even floating in the water
  before you pick it up with tweezers - don't drag it off the paper

make sure the car side is clean and free of ALL particles - and of course
  a glossy smooth finish is best (easiest)

wet the car side before applying the decal and use your solution generously
  and (capillary action) siphon off excess slowly with a Q tip or piece of paper towel
  while making fine adjustments to the location

let it mostly dry and adhere, and wet it again - at this stage I like to use
a strong setting solution. I may do this several times with a stubborn decal or
trying to conform to a rivet or rib






On 4/21/2020 3:16 PM, Pierre Oliver wrote:

What paint did you use? And how long did you let it dry?
If it's Scalecoat you need to let it fully cure for 3-4 days.
It looks like lots of blushing, brush MicroSol(red bottle) and poke at all the blushing with a sharp pin or knife tip. You want setting solution in behind the entire decal.
It takes persistence

Pierre Oliver
www.elgincarshops.com
www.yarmouthmodelworks.com

On 2020-04-21 3:10 p.m., Chuck Cover wrote:

Group,

I have problems with the decals on some of my freight car builds.  I have attached a photo of one of my models and in places you can see the decal film between the lettering where it ideally should be invisible.  On some models this does not occur, on others, as this D&H boxcar, there is some sheen visible.  Are there specific steps that can be taken to prevent this?  If this occurs after decal application, are there ways to make it disappear?  Thanks in advance.

Chuck Cover
Santa Fe, NM

 


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Curt Fortenberry
 


I use Solvaset diluted 50:50 with distilled water.  Only full strength for those specific problem spots.  Even Tamiya thinner X-20a is for a stubborn spot.  

Curt Fortenberry 


Jim King
 

Noted modeller, Bob Harpe, told me years ago that he uses 2 strengths of Solvaset.  1 is a mix of 40% Solvaset, 40% distilled water and 20% isopropyl alcohol.  I don’t use distilled water because our city water has never given me issues with fogging, etc.  I know some areas have “dirty” water and distilled, bottled water is the best option.

 

The other is full-strength Solvaset.  I have a bottle of each and use the greatly thinned brew when first applying decals.  Its dilution gives me enough time to move into position with a toothpick or broken-tipped #11 blade.  Once the decal dries, I switch to full-strength Solvaset to finish it. 

 

If the painted surface has sufficient gloss and I put enough thinned Solvaset on that spot, even with rivets, it usually takes just a couple applications of full-strength to get everything to nestle well.  I have Microsol bottles but rarely use them once I got used to the 2-step Solvaset process.

 

Jim King

http://smokymountainmodelworks.com/

 


Ken Adams
 

I had to use some old Champ decals recently which required Solvset full strength.

Of course I am averse to air brushing anything so the pre-decal gloss coat was brushed on Future (now marketed as Pledge "revive it" floor gloss.) It works for me......
--
Ken Adams
In Mandated Solitude About half way up Walnut Creek