Kingan packing


Brian Carlson
 

When Rapido brought out there first two runs of the GARX meet refers I Purchased several that were painted appropriate for my error. I’m trying to refine my modeling now that I know more now than I did then. I have a kingan car. I know kingan was headquartered in Indy and were acquired by Hygrade in 1952.

Modeling the Erie Main in NW Pennsylvania and a Pennsy secondary. What I’m interested in knowing is where the Branch house and other distribution points would be, (internet search is not helping, yet) and whether or not the car in appropriate in my area or should go to the sell box. Thanks.

Brian J. Carlson


Todd Sullivan
 

Hi Brian,

What year do you model?

Todd Sullian


Brian Carlson
 

I probably should’ve added that, 1957.

Brian J. Carlson 

On Apr 26, 2020, at 4:35 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:

Hi Brian,

What year do you model?

Todd Sullian


Todd Sullivan
 

I guess it depends on how aggressively Hygrade had General American repaint the Kingan reefers.  I suspect that it would have taken a few years.  You have 5 years between Hygrade's acquisition in 1952 and yoiur year, there might be a few still in Kingan lettering.

Todd Sullivan


Brian Carlson
 

My question really is where were kingan products being distributed or where the branch houses were. The photos in Gene Greene’s book are from 1954 after the sale the hygrade. 

I found a 1923 list of Branch houses and Kingan had some listed in NJ and NYC that could have traveled over the Erie. 

Sigh, boxcars are easier.  Lol. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Apr 26, 2020, at 5:06 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:

I guess it depends on how aggressively Hygrade had General American repaint the Kingan reefers.  I suspect that it would have taken a few years.  You have 5 years between Hygrade's acquisition in 1952 and yoiur year, there might be a few still in Kingan lettering.

Todd Sullivan


np328
 

      Please do not rule out that the car in question could be carrying drugs, printers ink, magazines, etc.  

Look at this list in the files: https://realstmfc.groups.io/g/main/files/Perishable%20Commodities,%20definition%20and%20list%20of  I uploaded some time ago. 
And note on the scanned page eleven, the key for commodities that need to be protected from both heat and cold.  It is only three years distant from your date, and closer to your modeled time than me, however should be applicable. 

     I wondered years ago about if I had too many reefers, and I still think I do. However after researching and then presenting on what I had found years ago on reefer travels, and finding the above data and much, much, more, I came to the conclusion that it was not as severe as I thought it was and by swapping out cars, it could be both, dealt with with different cars rotated through, and thereby some freshness introduced by not having the same cars rotate through yards and so on.

     As you are also modeling a through route (IIRC from your excellent CCB presentation many years ago,) you do need some through traffic as do I.  The cheapest through traffic cars in real $$ are the ones you own now.                                                                                                                                                             Jim Dick - Roseville, MN 


Tony Thompson
 

Jim Dick wrote:

      Please do not rule out that the car in question could be carrying drugs, printers ink, magazines, etc.  

     These are certainly cargoes that traveled in reefers, serving as insulated boxcars in the days before those were common. But in meat cars? I would think that the owner, or the lessee, would concentrate on their own products, not make the cars available for general service. Jim, do you know that meat cars were so used?
      Railroad-owned or leased reefers, on the other hand, would definitely handle these loads.

Tony Thompson




np328
 

Very good point Tony,
    and one with meet reefers that I have not looked too terribly deeply into.    Jim Dick  


A&Y Dave in MD
 

Brian,

Reviewing the whole thread, I can see that 1957 is your "error".   :-)

These would be appropriate if you didn't model that error, and instead chose an earlier time period.  lol.

I can tell you that in 1934, my conductor log database for the Southern's Winston-Salem division shows Kingan reefers being routed (with meat) to Mt. Airy, NC on a regular basis.  They were routed back to Richmond, VA .  Other reefers for other companies went elsewhere empty, like Morrell seemed to be routed empty to East St. Louis or St. Louis. And Schluderberg-Kurdle (now Esskay S-K) were routed to Baltimore via Potomac Yard.  That makes me think Richmond might be either a transfer point or it had a Kingan branch house.

A&Y Dave Bott


Sunday, April 26, 2020, 4:25:19 PM, you wrote:

> When Rapido brought out there first two runs of the GARX meet refers I Purchased several that
> were painted appropriate for my error. I’m trying to refine my modeling now that I know more now
> than I did then. I have a kingan car. I know kingan was headquartered in Indy and were acquired by Hygrade in 1952.

> Modeling the Erie Main in NW Pennsylvania and a Pennsy secondary. What I’m interested in knowing
> is where the Branch house and other distribution points would be, (internet search is not helping,
> yet) and whether or not the car in appropriate in my area or should go to the sell box. Thanks.

> Brian J. Carlson

>




--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34


Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

Hi Brian,

    From my study of met reefers with the late Bob Witbeck in the mid and late 1990's I'd suggest that in the
five year time frame between Hygrade purchasing Kingan in 1952 and your 1957 modeling era I'd be rather
surprised if all cars had not been repainted in that interim. A car repainted just before the sale, maybe. but 
otherwise unlikely.

My best, Don Valentine


Douglas Harding
 

Brian most meat heading to NYC westside traveled via the Erie. If that helps.

 

Here is what I have for Kingan locations, it is not complete.

State

City

City

Plant

Branch

Alabama

Dothan

Kingan and Company

DC?

Washington

Florida

Tampa

Florida

Jacksonville

Georgia

Atlanta

Indiana

Indianapolis

Kingan and Company

Iowa

Storm Lake

Kingan and Company

Kansas

Kansas City

later Cudady on the site

Maryland

Baltimore

Nebraska

Omaha

Kingan and Company

Pennsylvania

Philidelphia

South Carolina

Orangeburg

Kingan and Company

Virginia

Richmond

Kingan and Company

Virginia

Norfolk

 

In 1939 there were three slaughter plants and eleven branch houses. But I do not have the locations of those branch houses. As most meat from the Midwest was shipped, I would guess those branch houses were all located in the east.

 

Here is something that may be of interest: a USDA listing of Refrigerated Warehouses in the US in 1947. The list includes warehouses owned by meat packers, fruit companies, ice companies and many others.  https://downloads.usda.library.cornell.edu/usda-esmis/files/db78tc02w/fq977z57x/8s45qc92k/DireRefrWa-06-00-1947.pdf

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Carlson via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 4:25 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Kingan packing

 

My question really is where were kingan products being distributed or where the branch houses were. The photos in Gene Greene’s book are from 1954 after the sale the hygrade. 

 

I found a 1923 list of Branch houses and Kingan had some listed in NJ and NYC that could have traveled over the Erie. 

 

Sigh, boxcars are easier.  Lol. 

Brian J. Carlson 



On Apr 26, 2020, at 5:06 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:

I guess it depends on how aggressively Hygrade had General American repaint the Kingan reefers.  I suspect that it would have taken a few years.  You have 5 years between Hygrade's acquisition in 1952 and yoiur year, there might be a few still in Kingan lettering.

Todd Sullivan


Richard Townsend
 

Don't assume that Hygrade's purchase of Kingan meant the Kingan brand immediately went away. Many brands have value in themselves. Many companies operated the "legacy" brands long after a buyout. Nestle bought Carnation, Hersey bought Reese's, etc. The brands live on. I've seen information somewhere that indicated Kingan lasted into the 1960's. 

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Donald B. Valentine via groups.io <riverman_vt@...>
To: main <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Sun, Apr 26, 2020 3:14 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Kingan packing

Hi Brian,

    From my study of met reefers with the late Bob Witbeck in the mid and late 1990's I'd suggest that in the
five year time frame between Hygrade purchasing Kingan in 1952 and your 1957 modeling era I'd be rather
surprised if all cars had not been repainted in that interim. A car repainted just before the sale, maybe. but 
otherwise unlikely.

My best, Don Valentine


Douglas Harding
 

I meant to say since most meat from the Midwest was shipped east, I would guess those branch houses were all located in the east.

 

And I agree with Tony regarding other commodities in meat reefers. Meat reefers were in lease to the meat packers, who wanted them back as quickly as possible. It is doubtful they would be routed with other loads.

 

And I agree with Don, it is very doubtful a Kingan reefer was still in use in 1957. Meat reefers got regular maintenance. Not to mention that probably all the Kingan leases had expired and the cars returned to the owner to be painted for the new leassor.

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Douglas Harding via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 6:10 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Kingan packing

 

Brian most meat heading to NYC westside traveled via the Erie. If that helps.

 

Here is what I have for Kingan locations, it is not complete.

State

City

City

Plant

Branch

Alabama

Dothan

Kingan and Company

DC?

Washington

Florida

Tampa

Florida

Jacksonville

Georgia

Atlanta

Indiana

Indianapolis

Kingan and Company

Iowa

Storm Lake

Kingan and Company

Kansas

Kansas City

later Cudady on the site

Maryland

Baltimore

Nebraska

Omaha

Kingan and Company

Pennsylvania

Philidelphia

South Carolina

Orangeburg

Kingan and Company

Virginia

Richmond

Kingan and Company

Virginia

Norfolk

 

In 1939 there were three slaughter plants and eleven branch houses. But I do not have the locations of those branch houses. As most meat from the Midwest was shipped, I would guess those branch houses were all located in the east.

 

Here is something that may be of interest: a USDA listing of Refrigerated Warehouses in the US in 1947. The list includes warehouses owned by meat packers, fruit companies, ice companies and many others.  https://downloads.usda.library.cornell.edu/usda-esmis/files/db78tc02w/fq977z57x/8s45qc92k/DireRefrWa-06-00-1947.pdf

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Carlson via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2020 4:25 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Kingan packing

 

My question really is where were kingan products being distributed or where the branch houses were. The photos in Gene Greene’s book are from 1954 after the sale the hygrade. 

 

I found a 1923 list of Branch houses and Kingan had some listed in NJ and NYC that could have traveled over the Erie. 

 

Sigh, boxcars are easier.  Lol. 

Brian J. Carlson 

 

On Apr 26, 2020, at 5:06 PM, Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41@...> wrote:

I guess it depends on how aggressively Hygrade had General American repaint the Kingan reefers.  I suspect that it would have taken a few years.  You have 5 years between Hygrade's acquisition in 1952 and yoiur year, there might be a few still in Kingan lettering.

Todd Sullivan


Jack Mullen
 

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 04:24 PM, Douglas Harding wrote:
I agree with Don, it is very doubtful a Kingan reefer was still in use in 1957. Meat reefers got regular maintenance. Not to mention that probably all the Kingan leases had expired and the cars returned to the owner to be painted for the new leassor.
Or maybe not. Gene Green's Reefer Color Guide, p.49, has three photos of GATC reefers with KGNX reporting marks, all with billboard Kingan lettering. The photos are dated 1954, 1955, and August 1956.  The car in the latest photo has rather grimy sides, with two strips of replaced siding showing rather fresh paint, including repainting the "K" in Kingan.  This is only a few months before Brian's target year.  While these are only a few data points, they suggest to me that Hygrade wasn't being very aggressive in repainting, and passed up an opportunity when a car was shopped. Since Brian already has the car, I'd say weather it, use it, and let somebody try to prove non-existence.
The only other relevant photo I can find quickly is KGNX 3106 with perhaps a 1963 reweigh date. It appears to be one of a group of GATC cars originally leased by Kingan, and is now lettered HYGRADE FOOD PRODUCTS CORP. above the reporting marks, and has a large HYGRADE'S banner to the right of the door. 

Hope this helps,
Jack Mullen


Bob Chaparro
 

"Please do not rule out that the car in question could be carrying drugs, printers ink, magazines, etc. "
Those commodities were much more likely to be backhaul loads in produce (RS) reefers. Very unlikely they would have been hauled in captive service meat reefers.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


John Barry
 

San Francisco had a Kingan house served by the State Belt north of the Ferry Building on Embarcadaro between Jackson and Pacific Streets.  (Sourced from the SP 1948 and 1928 SF Industry Maps.)

Gives me a reason to run Kingan cars on the car float out of Richmond.

John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736


On Sunday, April 26, 2020, 06:04:48 PM EDT, A&Y Dave in MD <dbott@...> wrote:


Brian,

Reviewing the whole thread, I can see that 1957 is your "error".   :-)

These would be appropriate if you didn't model that error, and instead chose an earlier time period.  lol.

I can tell you that in 1934, my conductor log database for the Southern's Winston-Salem division shows Kingan reefers being routed (with meat) to Mt. Airy, NC on a regular basis.  They were routed back to Richmond, VA .  Other reefers for other companies went elsewhere empty, like Morrell seemed to be routed empty to East St. Louis or St. Louis. And Schluderberg-Kurdle (now Esskay S-K) were routed to Baltimore via Potomac Yard.  That makes me think Richmond might be either a transfer point or it had a Kingan branch house.

A&Y Dave Bott


Sunday, April 26, 2020, 4:25:19 PM, you wrote:

> When Rapido brought out there first two runs of the GARX meet refers I Purchased several that
> were painted appropriate for my error. I’m trying to refine my modeling now that I know more now
> than I did then. I have a kingan car. I know kingan was headquartered in Indy and were acquired by Hygrade in 1952.

> Modeling the Erie Main in NW Pennsylvania and a Pennsy secondary. What I’m interested in knowing
> is where the Branch house and other distribution points would be, (internet search is not helping,
> yet) and whether or not the car in appropriate in my area or should go to the sell box. Thanks.

> Brian J. Carlson

>




--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC

--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34