Topics

Distinctive Flat Car Toothpicks Timber Load


Jeff Helm
 

Here’s an amazing early steam era flat car load of “British Columbia Toothpicks”!  From the days when old growth timber was plentiful.  Courtesy Vancouver BC archives site, circa 1893.

https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/british-columbia-toothpicks-on-car-at-hastings-sawmill


--
Jeff Helm
Bremerton WA


Bruce Smith
 

Fascinating. Note that this load also bridges two flat cars. Much as we discussed recently, it is only fastened at the pivot points, which in this case are near the far end of each flat car. Close examination will show boards under the load at the inner ends of each flat car. These are "skids" as defined in the AAR loading diagrams, that allow movement of the load as the cars move through curves. There is no direct longitudinal (to the load) restraint on movement.

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Jeff Helm <jeff.helm.60@...>
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 11:49 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Distinctive Flat Car Toothpicks Timber Load
 
Here’s an amazing early steam era flat car load of “British Columbia Toothpicks”!  From the days when old growth timber was plentiful.  Courtesy Vancouver BC archives site, circa 1893.

https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/british-columbia-toothpicks-on-car-at-hastings-sawmill


--
Jeff Helm
Bremerton WA


A&Y Dave in MD
 

Jeff,

In the period around the turn of the 20th century, the lack of TV and other media forms led to a lot of that type of banner advertising on the railroads.  I wonder if they were only used for photos, or rolled up and unrolled at various station stops?  I've seen "carload" furniture sale banners, fruit banners, and other goods advertised like this on the sides of steam-only era freight cars.   Modeling something like this in a diorama like scene on a layout would be fun.

I always appreciate when I find an old building with massive solid timber beams.  And having had a chance to visit "Big Trees" State Park in California last year, I have a little feeling of what those forests might have been like.  What's hard to believe is that such old growth forests existed here in the mid-Atlantic coastal states waaay back when.

Thanks for the link.

Dave

Monday, May 4, 2020, 12:49:22 PM, you wrote:


Here’s an amazing early steam era flat car load of “British Columbia Toothpicks”!  From the days when old growth timber was plentiful.  Courtesy Vancouver BC archives site, circa 1893.

https://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/british-columbia-toothpicks-on-car-at-hastings-sawmill


--
Jeff Helm
Bremerton WA



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34


Tony Thompson
 

A&Y Dave iwrote:

In the period around the turn of the 20th century, the lack of TV and other media forms led to a lot of that type of banner advertising on the railroads.  I wonder if they were only used for photos, or rolled up and unrolled at various station stops?  I've seen "carload" furniture sale banners, fruit banners, and other goods advertised like this on the sides of steam-only era freight cars.   Modeling something like this in a diorama like scene on a layout would be fun.

    Such banners were disallowed by the ICC early in the 20th century.

Tony Thompson




A&Y Dave in MD
 

Tony,

Do you mean on moving trains or on all freight cars, even those parked?   Do you know when that ban happened?

Dave

Thursday, May 14, 2020, 1:20:39 PM, you wrote:


A&Y Dave iwrote:


Re: [RealSTMFC] Distinctive Flat Car Toothpicks Timber Load
In the period around the turn of the 20th century, the lack of TV and other media forms led to a lot of that type of banner advertising on the railroads.  I wonder if they were only used for photos, or rolled up and unrolled at various station stops?  I've seen "carload" furniture sale banners, fruit banners, and other goods advertised like this on the sides of steam-only era freight cars.   Modeling something like this in a diorama like scene on a layout would be fun.

    Such banners were disallowed by the ICC early in the 20th century.

Tony Thompson
tony@...





--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34


Dave Parker
 

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:20 AM, Tony Thompson wrote:
Such banners were disallowed by the ICC early in the 20th century.
Tony, can you define "early", and maybe provide an effective date?  There are photos of Swift reefer with banners as late as 1934.  Was there any connection to the billboard reefer ban, or were they independent edicts from the ICC?
 
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Tony Thompson
 

Do you mean on moving trains or on all freight cars, even those parked?   Do you know when that ban happened?

      I believe it was for moving trains. Obviously there was some slack, because often big loads had placards on them, giving the builder name if nothing else, but the routine attachment on car sides did largely disappear. As you mention, of course, a stationary car might be photographed with a banner for publicity purposes, then the banner removed before the load was switched out.

Tony Thompson




Tony Thompson
 

Dave Parker wrote:

Tony, can you define "early", and maybe provide an effective date?  There are photos of Swift reefer with banners as late as 1934.  Was there any connection to the billboard reefer ban, or were they independent edicts from the ICC?

         As late as the first decade of the 20th century, posters, banners and notices of all kinds were attached to freight car sides, and I recall that those were banned (i browsed ALL of Railway Age while researching the PFE book) in that period, but I can't remember more specifically. 
         Whether one could obtain dispensation for a really special load, I don't know.

Tony Thompson




A&Y Dave in MD
 

Google can be your friend, but it can take a while to find.

"Rule 8 The placing of advertisements or banners of any kind upon any freight or passenger car or locomotive including permanent stakes which are a part of open top cars is prohibited except

a) Advertisements or banners may be placed thereon for photographic purposes only while such equipment is at rest on private tracks or on service tracks of the railroad and when so placed must be removed prior to movements of the equipment the placement and removal to be by and at the expense of the shipper or consignee

b) Advertisements may be painted upon passenger equipment used in special train movements the expense of painting and removal to be borne by the user This does not prohibit the placing of advertisements or banners on the lading or attaching them to temporary stakes used to secure the lading on open top cars

335 ICC

I'm not sure of the date for this.  Still looking, but this is the language.

source:
https://books.google.com/books?id=smJQ-N89PH8C&pg=PA334&lpg=PA334&dq=Interstate+Commerce+Commission+ICC+rule+railroad+freight+car+banners&source=bl&ots=sV4TuB4e4X&sig=ACfU3U1CpGZeVe8djkjMT_cCFW5Agn-MEw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjulc_d87PpAhXpoHIEHZTsC8gQ6AEwAHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Interstate%20Commerce%20Commission%20ICC%20rule%20railroad%20freight%20car%20banners&f=false

Thursday, May 14, 2020, 1:33:21 PM, you wrote:


Tony,

Do you mean on moving trains or on all freight cars, even those parked?   Do you know when that ban happened?

Dave

Thursday, May 14, 2020, 1:20:39 PM, you wrote:


A&Y Dave iwrote:


Re: [RealSTMFC] Distinctive Flat Car Toothpicks Timber Load
In the period around the turn of the 20th century, the lack of TV and other media forms led to a lot of that type of banner advertising on the railroads.  I wonder if they were only used for photos, or rolled up and unrolled at various station stops?  I've seen "carload" furniture sale banners, fruit banners, and other goods advertised like this on the sides of steam-only era freight cars.   Modeling something like this in a diorama like scene on a layout would be fun.

    Such banners were disallowed by the ICC early in the 20th century.

Tony Thompson
tony@...




--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34



--
David Bott

Sent from David Bott's desktop PC
--
____________________________
David Bott, modeling the A&Y in '34


Dennis Storzek
 

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 10:57 AM, A&Y Dave in MD wrote:
b) Advertisements may be painted upon passenger equipment used in special train movements the expense of painting and removal to be borne by the user This does not prohibit the placing of advertisements or banners on the lading or attaching them to temporary stakes used to secure the lading on open top cars
So, since the banners are attached to the timbers, they are good to travel that way.

Dennis Storzek


Andy Carlson
 

My train room sits atop my 36' x 64' 2-story structure. My two 16' RR benchworks are directy over on one of two 12"x12"x66' Doug Fir beams. This whole place was my childhood friend's family owned house and 2-story building. He told me that back in 1960, building the 2-story his dad purchased two beams from a wooden bridge being pulled out due to the forthcoming waters of the new Lake Casitas impoundment. I can not even see a good chance for a purchase today of beams of this size, and to understand that each of these "toothpick" beams could have been cut into 9 of my 12x12 beams! The Pacific Northwest sure had some impressive trees!

I remember around the early 1970s we started to see a drop in lumber quality in Southern California, as lots of 2nd growth Doug Fir was starting to overtake the old growth stuff. The changeover for quite some time is now complete; you can not find old growth, fine grain 2x6 units anywhere, at least new.

Restoring old wooden freight cars today requires some changes, such as glue-lams or even recycled milk bottle constructed beams, as most remaining old growth is too valuable and much goes to window, door and sash mills..
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Tim O'Connor
 


Hmm. 1954 photo.


On 5/14/2020 1:20 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
A&Y Dave iwrote:

In the period around the turn of the 20th century, the lack of TV and other media forms led to a lot of that type of banner advertising on the railroads.  I wonder if they were only used for photos, or rolled up and unrolled at various station stops?  I've seen "carload" furniture sale banners, fruit banners, and other goods advertised like this on the sides of steam-only era freight cars.   Modeling something like this in a diorama like scene on a layout would be fun.

    Such banners were disallowed by the ICC early in the 20th century.

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts


Schuyler Larrabee
 

Tony, there must have been some flexibility.  As I am sure you’ve seen photos, the ERIE delivered a one-piece transatlantic cable, from where to where I am not sure, in a string of, I think, 11 fairly modern steel gondolas, with the cable laid in each gon zig-zag fashion, and then looped up and over into the next car.  The gons were all chained together – they certainly didn’t want any sort of break-in-two messing that up!

 

The train had a banner on it because of the special move, a very unusual shipment.

 

But the point of the photos I’ve seen is the problem that delayed the shipment: one of the cars developed a hot box!  Everything had to be moved into a siding ‘til that could be repaired!!

 

Schuyler

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2020 1:44 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Distinctive Flat Car Toothpicks Timber Load

 

Dave Parker wrote:



Tony, can you define "early", and maybe provide an effective date?  There are photos of Swift reefer with banners as late as 1934.  Was there any connection to the billboard reefer ban, or were they independent edicts from the ICC?

 

         As late as the first decade of the 20th century, posters, banners and notices of all kinds were attached to freight car sides, and I recall that those were banned (i browsed ALL of Railway Age while researching the PFE book) in that period, but I can't remember more specifically. 

         Whether one could obtain dispensation for a really special load, I don't know.

 

Tony Thompson

 

 

 


Ray Hutchison
 

RacineWagonCarriagePoster-web.jpg

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 3:59 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Hmm. 1954 photo.


On 5/14/2020 1:20 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
A&Y Dave iwrote:

In the period around the turn of the 20th century, the lack of TV and other media forms led to a lot of that type of banner advertising on the railroads.  I wonder if they were only used for photos, or rolled up and unrolled at various station stops?  I've seen "carload" furniture sale banners, fruit banners, and other goods advertised like this on the sides of steam-only era freight cars.   Modeling something like this in a diorama like scene on a layout would be fun.

    Such banners were disallowed by the ICC early in the 20th century.

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Attachments:


Ray Hutchison
 

apologies, I thought this was being sent to the group under new topics subject line.


On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 4:43 PM Ray Hutchison <rayhutchison2@...> wrote:
RacineWagonCarriagePoster-web.jpg

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 3:59 PM Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Hmm. 1954 photo.


On 5/14/2020 1:20 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:
A&Y Dave iwrote:

In the period around the turn of the 20th century, the lack of TV and other media forms led to a lot of that type of banner advertising on the railroads.  I wonder if they were only used for photos, or rolled up and unrolled at various station stops?  I've seen "carload" furniture sale banners, fruit banners, and other goods advertised like this on the sides of steam-only era freight cars.   Modeling something like this in a diorama like scene on a layout would be fun.

    Such banners were disallowed by the ICC early in the 20th century.

Tony Thompson


--
Tim O'Connor
Sterling, Massachusetts

Attachments:


Bob Chaparro
 

More Toothpicks

A 1919 postcard photo from the Washington State Historical Society:

http://www.washingtonhistory.org/imu/api/file/5805

Description:

Lithograph colored promotional post card showing three large timbers on two flat cars, 1919. Labeled, "Washington Tooth Picks."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Robert kirkham
 

Interesting – I’ve seen other loads with that kind of caption.  Kind of surprising that the surface of the timbers look like they were finished with an adze, rather than through a saw.  I cant read the reporting marks on the flat cars.

 

Rob

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2020 10:24 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Distinctive Flat Car Toothpicks Timber Load

 

More Toothpicks

A 1919 postcard photo from the Washington State Historical Society:

http://www.washingtonhistory.org/imu/api/file/5805

Description:

Lithograph colored promotional post card showing three large timbers on two flat cars, 1919. Labeled, "Washington Tooth Picks."

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Richard Wilkens
 

These are probably cants, which would later be sawed into other sizes of lumber. Or possibly due to the length these would be made into ship masts.

Rich Wilkens


Brian Termunde
 


Rob;
I 'think' it's a Northern Pacific car based on the car's lettering.

And Bob, Thank you for yet another gem!

Take Care,
 
Brian R. Termunde
Midvale, Utah
***************

 Robert Kirkham
10:26am   

Interesting – I’ve seen other loads with that kind of caption.  Kind of surprising that the surface of the timbers look like they were finished with an adze, rather than through a saw.  I cant read the reporting marks on the flat cars.

 

Rob


Jim Sabol
 

Those were typically four foot square or odd sizes like 38” square.  In the racially insensitive nomenclature of the time, they were called “Jap Squares,” for re-sawing by the Japanese using their own system of construction measurements and techniques.

 

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