Ownership Of Tank Cars In 1950


Bob Chaparro
 

Ownership Of Tank Cars In 1950

A list compiled by Jerry Britton:

https://jbritton.pennsyrr.com/index.php/tpm/97-interchange-ownership-of-tank-cars-in-1950

This list represents tank cars rostered in North America, according to the Official Railway Equipment Register. This list does not include milk tanks, vinegar tanks, pickle tanks or tanks specifically denoted for company service.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Friends,

A nice list, but I didn't see the Western Pacific listed here. In July 1949 (the closest ORER sheets I have to the 1950 list), they operated 209 tank cars. They included 62 10K AC&F high-walkway tanks (what we call "Type 7" IIRC), as well as 89 similar cars with low walkways, and 50 12K tanks (clones of SP cars). Now most of these were in company fuel service, possibly because they were loaded off-line, but the WP tank cars were listed as revenue cars.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 12:00 PM Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Ownership Of Tank Cars In 1950

A list compiled by Jerry Britton:

https://jbritton.pennsyrr.com/index.php/tpm/97-interchange-ownership-of-tank-cars-in-1950

This list represents tank cars rostered in North America, according to the Official Railway Equipment Register. This list does not include milk tanks, vinegar tanks, pickle tanks or tanks specifically denoted for company service.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Charlie Vlk
 

All-

Note that this list may not be very accurate due to the way private owner cars are reported and listed in the ORER. 

For example, the John H. Grace Company is listed in Jerry’s compilation as only “DRDX” reporting marks and the PTLX and GRYX reporting marks also used by this company are not shown.   For some reason I can’t find John H. Grace in my 1950 Westerfield ORER disc but it does appear in the 1955 version and there all three reporting marks are listed.   The car count is not shown and if it were I would be very cautious about relying on it.  Results for other companies might be similar.

Charlie Vlk

PS- GRYX apparently had cars associated with the Mather Company in 1935

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2020 11:00 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Ownership Of Tank Cars In 1950

 

Ownership Of Tank Cars In 1950

A list compiled by Jerry Britton:

https://jbritton.pennsyrr.com/index.php/tpm/97-interchange-ownership-of-tank-cars-in-1950

This list represents tank cars rostered in North America, according to the Official Railway Equipment Register. This list does not include milk tanks, vinegar tanks, pickle tanks or tanks specifically denoted for company service.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Fred Jansz
 

Garth,
my July 1950 ORER doesn't list any WP tank cars.
Suppose they were all in company service by then.
best regards,
Fred Jansz


Ian Cranstone
 

The list gives one an idea as to just how large the lease fleets (UTLX, GATX, SHPX, NATX, and for Canada, CGTX and TCLX). The ORER has always been a little shaky in tank car information, and frequently doesn’t cover railroad-owned cars — mostly because railroad-owned cars were employed in the service of the railroad, and not generally available for other uses.  Even the Tank Car Capacities tariff (TCC) overlooks a number of railroad-owned cars — for example, both Canadian National and Canadian Pacific owned a number of tank cars for company use, and none of them were listed in either the ORER or TCC.

Ian Cranstone

Osgoode, Ontario, Canada

lamontc@...

http://freightcars.nakina.net


On May 19, 2020, at 11:59 AM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

Ownership Of Tank Cars In 1950

A list compiled by Jerry Britton:

https://jbritton.pennsyrr.com/index.php/tpm/97-interchange-ownership-of-tank-cars-in-1950

This list represents tank cars rostered in North America, according to the Official Railway Equipment Register. This list does not include milk tanks, vinegar tanks, pickle tanks or tanks specifically denoted for company service.


Tony Thompson
 

Ian Cranstone wrote:

The list gives one an idea as to just how large the lease fleets (UTLX, GATX, SHPX, NATX, and for Canada, CGTX and TCLX). The ORER has always been a little shaky in tank car information, and frequently doesn’t cover railroad-owned cars — mostly because railroad-owned cars were employed in the service of the railroad, and not generally available for other uses.  

    Remember, the ORER didn't seek out anything. Each car owner sent in a report, as often as they thought necessary (some would remain unchanged, with original date, for multiple issues). Whatever the owner sent in, is what was in the ORER. Ordinarily, these were cars in revenue service (the ORER had the status of a tariff document). You cannot expect company service cars to be in there -- unless, as some roads did, a particular railroad CHOSE to include them.

Even the Tank Car Capacities tariff (TCC) overlooks a number of railroad-owned cars — for example, both Canadian National and Canadian Pacific owned a number of tank cars for company use, and none of them were listed in either the ORER or TCC.

       Again, the TCC is a tariff to facilitate charges for car movement. It has nothing to do with cars not in revenue service, and the TCC can hardly be said to "overlook" anything.
        I am sure Ian knows all this, and speaks of these two documents as we modelers see them and their "deficiencies." But let's make sure we remember what those documents WERE.

Tony Thompson




Ian Cranstone
 

Tony is quite correct in noting that "overlooks" was probably a poor choice of words on my part...

Railroads reported what they were required to report to the two tariffs, and in some cases chose to report things that they were not required to – and could differ.

For example, Canadian National and Canadian Pacific chose not to report their tank cars to either tariff after mid-1932 (one historian assumed that they had sold their cars at that time to the newly-formed Canadian General Transit, but I have never found any evidence to support that contention – I believe that there was an agreement between the railways and CGTX that the latter would be the source of cars for non-railway shippers).

I remember seeing a note in this thread that WP did not list their tank cars in the 1950 ORER, however, did list 215 cars in the 1955 TCC, and I expect that they were not the only ones to choose to list in one tariff and not the other.  I assume there was some reason for this choice, but would only be guessing.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...

 


On 2020-05-19 22:39, Tony Thompson wrote:

Ian Cranstone wrote:

The list gives one an idea as to just how large the lease fleets (UTLX, GATX, SHPX, NATX, and for Canada, CGTX and TCLX). The ORER has always been a little shaky in tank car information, and frequently doesn't cover railroad-owned cars — mostly because railroad-owned cars were employed in the service of the railroad, and not generally available for other uses.  
 
    Remember, the ORER didn't seek out anything. Each car owner sent in a report, as often as they thought necessary (some would remain unchanged, with original date, for multiple issues). Whatever the owner sent in, is what was in the ORER. Ordinarily, these were cars in revenue service (the ORER had the status of a tariff document). You cannot expect company service cars to be in there -- unless, as some roads did, a particular railroad CHOSE to include them.

Even the Tank Car Capacities tariff (TCC) overlooks a number of railroad-owned cars — for example, both Canadian National and Canadian Pacific owned a number of tank cars for company use, and none of them were listed in either the ORER or TCC.
       Again, the TCC is a tariff to facilitate charges for car movement. It has nothing to do with cars not in revenue service, and the TCC can hardly be said to "overlook" anything.
        I am sure Ian knows all this, and speaks of these two documents as we modelers see them and their "deficiencies." But let's make sure we remember what those documents WERE.

Tony Thompson
 


Fred Jansz
 

Guys,

WP purchased 210 tank cars in 1912 (60,10k cap)), 1913 (100, 10k cap)) and 1929 (50, 12,5k cap)).
After WW II, most of these were used in bilge water, diesel fuel, water, sand and other company services.
By 1950 these 210 cars were out of the ORER.
Most of them in MW/company service, many scrapped due to age.
There were no 215 WP tank cars.
Certainly not in 1955.

best,
Fred Jansz


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Fred and friends,

Interesting observation. This gives us a one-year window for when WP tank cars were reclassified to MW service. It would be interesting to figure out approximately when the change took place. If I still lived on the Left Coast or had occasion to visit there, I could check the ORER issues in the CSRM library, as they have/had a nearly complete run from that time period in their reading room.

I've never figured out where the WP got their bunker-C fuel oil, but AFAIK they didn't serve any refineries directly, thus the need for the tank cars to be classed as revenue equipment for interchange purposes. Likely their cars went to a refinery in the Bay area on the ATSF or SP. Salt Lake City is unlikely, since the WP was coal-fired east of Winnemucca. Perhaps with the switch to diesels nearly complete by 1950, and the few remaining steam locomotives running on borrowed time or only fired up for the fall rush season, there was no longer any need to send their tank cars off-line. The entire system was completely diesel east of Oroville in 1950.  According to Dunscomb, in 1951 diesels handled 87.4% of freight train miles, 99.7% of passenger miles, and 82.5% of all yard switching hours. The last regular movement by steam was in June 1953 when mikado 329 ran between Oroville and Stockton.

Of course, as was typical of the WP, even though the tank cars were no longer in interchange service, many were not relettered. I still was seeing some of the 12K tanks in original lettering shortly before I left California on New Years Day 1982, though most had "MW 0" added before their car numbers.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff  🦆


On Tue, May 19, 2020 at 3:11 PM Fred Jansz <fred@...> wrote:
Garth,
my July 1950 ORER doesn't list any WP tank cars.
Suppose they were all in company service by then.
best regards,
Fred Jansz


Ian Cranstone
 

On May 20, 2020, at 2:27 AM, Fred Jansz <fred@...> wrote:

Guys,

WP purchased 210 tank cars in 1912 (60,10k cap)), 1913 (100, 10k cap)) and 1929 (50, 12,5k cap)).
After WW II, most of these were used in bilge water, diesel fuel, water, sand and other company services.
By 1950 these 210 cars were out of the ORER.
Most of them in MW/company service, many scrapped due to age.
There were no 215 WP tank cars.
Certainly not in 1955.
Fred, the attached entry from the 1955 Tank Car Capacities tariff clearly shows 215 cars in the WP listing.

Ian CranstoneOsgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...
http://freightcars.nakina.net


Fred Jansz
 

Thank you for that list Ian.
It's weird to see WP still has the ten 1906-built (that was before WP was actually in operation starting 1909!) tank cars on the roster.
Cars that in real life (in 1955) probably were long gone, certainly as revenue cars.
When I add these 10 cars and deduct the 5 off roster cars; yes, WP had 215 tank cars, I agree.
However, all books and info I have, including the 1950 ORER, mention these tank cars were in MW or out of service by 1955.
Why these -except 5- still are in the TCC list is a miracle to me.
Thanks again for the info.
cheers,
Fred Jansz