Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular


reporterllc
 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Eric Hansmann
 

It depends on how the sand will be used. Lots of sand for glass factories moved in boxcars, even into the mid-1960s. Clean sand was required for good quality glass. Impurities in the sand led to imperfections in the final product. Keep in mind the covered hoppers initially moved cement as they came into use.

 

Large plate glass operations most likely received covered hopper loads for the quantities needed in the post-WW2 years. These larger plants had receiving areas to ease material transfer from a covered hopper to interior storage. Smaller tableware glass operations had fewer inbounds to facilities that lacked modern material transfer elements.

 

Years ago a friend told me he worked at a glass factory in Weston, W. Va., circa early 1960s. I asked about inbound sand. He only recalled boxcars for the deliveries. Unloading was with a flat scoop and wheelbarrow. A full wheelbarrow would be navigated across a plank bridging the boxcar with the dock door. The load would be wheeled to an interior materials bin and dumped. The process was repeated until the car was unloaded.

 

I’ve reviewed many West Virginia glass factory images over the years. Some plants had covered trackside materials bins for sand unloading, still with the shovel. Some plants had a pit between the track and building with an auger to pull material into the building. A metal plate would cover this when not in use. Again, the sand would be hand-shoveled into the pit. Many operations were not upgraded in the post-WW2 years so this labor-intensive work continued to the close of operations. As plastics took over many outlets for glass production, these plants struggled along with fewer jobs before closing.

 

How sand was delivered would have probably been by customer request. If a lumberyard, concrete operation, or foundry needed clean sand, then it would have been delivered in an enclosed car. If impurities were not an issue, then an open gondola would work. Either way, I’m certain some of the load would be lost in transit if it wasn’t delivered in a covered hopper.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 9:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Charles Morrill
 

The SP's El Paso steam era sand house received locomotive sand in ordinary SP GS class gons.  Weather was not a factor as the sand was dried in the sand house before being blown up into the delivery bins.

Charlie 


From: "reporterllc via groups.io" <reporterllc@...>
To: "main" <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 9:17:06 PM
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Eric Mumper
 

Victor,

As mentioned in another reply it depends on the end use.  The linked picture was taken at Utica, Ill. on the Rock Island and shows how foundry sand was shipped well into the covered hopper era.  This plant also produced high grade sand for glass which is ideal for covered hoppers.  This sand was so fine that bulk loading in a boxcar could result in much less reaching the destination - the stuff pours like water.  The few pictures I have seen in earlier times are mostly gons and quite probably bags loaded into boxcars.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/eP1Cjx5N6eqxh2GE9

Eric Mumper


Todd Sullivan
 

I worked for Corning Incorporated (formerly Corning Glass Works) for a while.  Corning has made a wide variety of products from telescope lenses to kitchen ware to optical fiber to catalytic converter cores from silica over the years.  The silica (the technical name for sand) has been shipped by covered hopper since the mid or late 1960s.  In the 1920s - 50s, boxcars were used.  Loss and breakage in this business was always a problem.  Corning was the first mass-producer of electric light bulb globes - the glass part of a bulb - and they just loaded them in bulk into a boxcar and allowed 25% breakage.

Todd Sullivan 


Drew M.
 

The CNJ regularly hauled sand out of the Vineland, NJ and Millville, NJ areas in 52' gondolas. The sand was just piled in the car - CNJ employees would joke that SJ-2 looked like a rolling sandstorm. The RDG had a series of 2 bay offset side hoppers they assigned to the same area to haul sand on the PRSL.

Drew Marshall, Philly, PA

Modeling the pre-Depression years.

Sent from TypeApp

On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:56, "reporterllc via groups.io" <yahoo.com@groups.io target=_blank>reporterllc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Douglas Harding
 

General Sand coming out of an open pit was exposed to the weather. So an open car, gon or hopper was the norm. Only specialty sands that were in bags or barrels would warrant a boxcar.

 

 

Doug  Harding

www.iowacentralrr.org

 

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of reporterllc via groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 8, 2020 9:17 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Tony Thompson
 

Todd Sullivan wrote:

The silica (the technical name for sand) has been shipped by covered hopper since the mid or late 1960s . . .

     Well, yes, the sand used for glassmaking is certainly silica, but most sand is by  no means pure silica. "Sand" is a term for finely divided rock, whatever the rock.
      Glass is almost entirely silica in any everyday application that we would call "glassware," but many other compositions (especially at Corning!) were produced, starting with glass sand.

Tony Thompson




John Barry
 

Vic,

As you've heard, it depends . . .

But I can add two seemingly unusual sand shipments into Richmond California circa 1942.  In one, actually a large steady stream of cars, ATSF received locomotive sand on the Richmond Sand House trestle in SP GS gondolas.  You normally think of company material arriving in home road equipment. But the closest source was in Monterey on the SP. Monterey Sand Sources 

A few photos of the SP gons at the ATSF sand house in Richmond:




The other is Foundry Sand from upstate New York.  Coal to Newcastle you ask?  No, WWII had just cut off coastal shipping and a Richmond foundry had been getting a very specific sand for their molds from a source in New York, shipped in bulk.  When they found their transportation line cut, they turned to the railroads, only to object to the comparatively high cost of rail haulage.  They filed a rate case with the ICC and lost. 

 


John Barry
 
ATSF North Bay Lines 
Golden Gates & Fast Freights 
Lovettsville, VA

707-490-9696 

PO Box 44736 
Washington, DC 20026-4736


On Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 12:56:28 PM EDT, reporterllc via groups.io <reporterllc@...> wrote:


What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Thomas Birkett
 

John

I always appreciate your comments even on commodities as common as sand.

We have ATSF 940 on display her in Bartlesville and I have been surprised at how many references and photos exist of a locomotive built in 1903. It spent the first twenty years of its life running out of Needles (I also didn’t realize that Needles was home terminal for crews running both to Siligman and Barstow.)

We also have a 1914 vintage tank car AOX 930 which carried the Phillips Petroleum number PSPX 813 in 1966 after Phillips purchased the west coast assets of Tidewater Oil including the Avon Refinery. I found the tank of this car in the Texas panhandle with both number visible.

My question: since Avon and Richmond were fairly close is that where locomotive fuel on the west end of the Valley Division sourced? If so via pipeline or tank car? Locomotive fuel for Needles? One of the Bakersfield refineries? Trying to determine if the AOX car ever delivered to the Santa Fe.

Regards

Tom Birkett, Bartlesville, Oklahoma

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of John Barry
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 9:48 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

 

Vic,

 

As you've heard, it depends . . .

 

But I can add two seemingly unusual sand shipments into Richmond California circa 1942.  In one, actually a large steady stream of cars, ATSF received locomotive sand on the Richmond Sand House trestle in SP GS gondolas.  You normally think of company material arriving in home road equipment. But the closest source was in Monterey on the SP. Monterey Sand Sources 

 

 


Monterey Sand Sources

Richmond was a long way from the sand pit on the El Segundo Branch that served the LA division. Photographic ev...

A few photos of the SP gons at the ATSF sand house in Richmond:

 

 

 


Locomotive Sand at Richmond

The Richmond Roundhouse was the locomotive servicing facility for the west end of the Valley Division and the Sa...

 

 

The other is Foundry Sand from upstate New York.  Coal to Newcastle you ask?  No, WWII had just cut off coastal shipping and a Richmond foundry had been getting a very specific sand for their molds from a source in New York, shipped in bulk.  When they found their transportation line cut, they turned to the railroads, only to object to the comparatively high cost of rail haulage.  They filed a rate case with the ICC and lost. 

 

 

 

 

John Barry

 

ATSF North Bay Lines 

Golden Gates & Fast Freights 

Lovettsville, VA

 

707-490-9696 

 

PO Box 44736 

Washington, DC 20026-4736

 

 

On Tuesday, June 16, 2020, 12:56:28 PM EDT, reporterllc via groups.io <reporterllc@...> wrote:

 

 

What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Tony Thompson
 

Tom Birkett wrote:

Trying to determine if the AOX car ever delivered to the Santa Fe.

   Good question, Tom, but certainly not in the early days. SP was part owner and one might doubt they would want to sell to Santa Fe. But that all ended in the 1920s. Would be interesting to know who Santa Fe bought fuel from. By the 1930s, SP was very friendly with what became Chevron, but I've been told that whenever there was a disagreement about price, SP would buy from others until Chevron came around.

Tony Thompson




mofwcaboose <MOFWCABOOSE@...>
 

I lived in Sewell, NJ, on the P-RSL in the 1950s and saw exactly the same thing.; sand in long gondolas. I don't remember any Reading hoppers. Sewell was on the line that passed through Vineland to Millville.

You could always tell if the train had stopped because there would be little piles of sand where it had leaked through any opening in the floor.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonits Springs, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Drew M. via groups.io <phillydrewcifer@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Jun 16, 2020 3:25 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

The CNJ regularly hauled sand out of the Vineland, NJ and Millville, NJ areas in 52' gondolas. The sand was just piled in the car - CNJ employees would joke that SJ-2 looked like a rolling sandstorm. The RDG had a series of 2 bay offset side hoppers they assigned to the same area to haul sand on the PRSL.

Drew Marshall, Philly, PA

Modeling the pre-Depression years.

Sent from TypeApp
On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:56, "reporterllc via groups.io" <yahoo.com@groups.io target=_blank>reporterllc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
What kind of car was used? I am referring to bulk sand from a pit that ships out sand and gravel. Perhaps this sand would not be that specialized. Wouldn't it need to be protected from the weather? On a side note, In the early 1970s (long after covered hoppers became popular) I remember a tower operator referring to an ancient gondola in a consist loaded with sand. I did not see it and wondered if it was covered.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com


Drew M.
 

John,
   The RDG two bay hoppers were assigned to sand service after this list's cutoff date.

Drew

Modeling the pre-Depression years.

Sent from TypeApp

On Jun 17, 2020, at 11:47, "mofwcaboose via groups.io" <aol.com@groups.io target=_blank>mofwcaboose=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
I lived in Sewell, NJ, on the P-RSL in the 1950s and saw exactly the same thing.; sand in long gondolas. I don't remember any Reading hoppers. Sewell was on the line that passed through Vineland to Millville.

You could always tell if the train had stopped because there would be little piles of sand where it had leaked through any opening in the floor.

John C. La Rue, Jr.
Bonits Springs, FL


-----Original Message-----
From: Drew M. via groups.io <phillydrewcifer@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>
Sent: Tue, Jun 16, 2020 3:25 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Hauling Sand before Coverd Hoppers Became Popular

The CNJ regularly hauled sand out of the Vineland, NJ and Millville, NJ areas in 52' gondolas. The sand was just piled in the car - CNJ employees would joke that SJ-2 looked like a rolling sandstorm. The RDG had a series of 2 bay offset side hoppers they assigned to the same area to haul sand on the PRSL.

Drew Marshall, Philly, PA

Modeling the pre-Depression years.

Sent from TypeApp


Walter Cox
 

I recall that the Consumers Glass company in Ville St, Pierre, Quebec received sand in early CN covered hoppers in the mid 50's, at least as late as 1957 when I moved out of the area. There was a ball field nearby and when we didn't have enough kids for a game of French scrub we used to hang around watching a CN N-4  2-8-0 switch the plant and run errands to the local hamburger joint for the engine crew. I even got to ride in the fireman's seat on a short hop to drop off some cars at a CP interchange and got to blow the whistle at a level crossing on the way. Rule enforcement wasn't what is is today.
Walt.

In a message dated 6/16/2020 6:33:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, tony@... writes:

Todd Sullivan wrote:

The silica (the technical name for sand) has been shipped by covered hopper since the mid or late 1960s . . .._,_._,_


 

Los Angeles Junction Ry served two bottle makers. They each got 9 hoppers of silica sand & one of limestone per day that came from Santa Fe Ry (parent company). The sand came from near Oceanside & the limestone off the 1st District.
Andy Jackson
Santa Fe Springs CA



Bob Chaparro
 

Andy -
Were these covered hoppers or open hoppers?
What about gondolas?
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Chet
 

Victor,

We pulled a lot of cars of sand out of a large pit at Forreston, IL and it was shipped in both hoppers and gons.   The sand was often wet which kept it from blowing.
In the early 1960's, when Interstate 80 was being built across Illinois, this pit provided both gravel and sand for the project.  There were two grades of gravel, A and B, and
sand.   The IC put on a pit job for a few summers and we would pull 60 to 70 loads out of the pit some days.  We had to line the up the cars; A, B, sand; A, B, sand; A. B, sand;
etc. for the concrete batch plant near Bloomington, IL.    The sand was in hoppers for this job. 

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Steven N.
 

The Chicago and Northwestern used ore jennies to haul sand from S. Beloit, IL and Janesville, WI to Chicago area redi-mix concrete producers.  The Sand-man as it was called.  Daily 35 car trains during the construction season.  Lasted up until or shortly after the UP takeover.