Topics

CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions


Dave Nelson
 

Tangental point of interest about the facts below:  In the steam ear Southern Pacific had a small yard at Port Costa, a few miles west of Martinez, that was used for the “retail” aspect of railroading, getting cars to and from local industries.  Union Oil was at Oleum, a few miles west of Port Costa, Shell, Tidewater, and Monsanto were a few miles to the east.  For all three of those SP used the same siding located between Avon and Martinez (they were only a mile or two apart, if that).  All of this distance was along the Sacramento River, rip rap on one side, open space hills on the other with just a narrow shelf for the railroad.  This is on the major E/W path for the SP out of Oakland.

 

The fact I find most interesting about this is the yard limits for Port Costa.  The west end was at Oleum; the east end at Suisun/Fairfield, about 20 miles east of Port Costa.  Suisun/Fairfield was where a whole lot of Lumber from the NWP passed thru; It had a small yard and a wye.

 

I have always thought a layout based on the above would be pretty interesting.

 

Dave Nelson

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ken Adams
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2020 12:47 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

 

Oops "switched" in my list of Carquinez south shore refineries to be switched by local power from Port Costa in the early 1950's.

The correct locations for the period are:
Shell at Martinez - predominantly  GATX?
Tidewater/Associated at Avon - predominantly UTLX
Union Oil/Phillips 66 at Rodeo - predominantly  ?
--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek


eastwest40
 

I hope there is a prototype for the red car. I have a Arnold Rapido N scale car. I have been hanging onto it for.years I don't know what type of tank car the model is but I think it is a nice model, probably forty years old. After reading this thread  I think it was inspired by some other model rather than a prototype.

Chuck Seemann   Aurora, Colorado


Bill Decker
 

Andy,

Not wanting to get into a flame war here, especially with oil refinery products about, but your statement: "Rio Grande, while being owned by Richfield Oil, was the recipient of the only US 48 states enemy attack during WWll. That attack was just north of the current University Of California Santa Barbara at an area on the coast called Ellwood Beach. " is incorrect as to "only US 48 states enemy attack during WWII.  We had a discussion on this point quite recently on line.  Up here in Oregon, we know well of the shelling at Fort Stevens on the south side of the mouth of the Columbia--and served off the A-Line of the (by then) SP&S.  That recent discussion also highlighted the flambé le balloon attacks which netted fatalities in southern oregon later in the war (though not close to a rail line).  If you are trying to limit the attack issue to a refinery area, yes, perhaps, but certainly not the only attack on the Pacific Coast.

Bill Decker
McMinnville, Oregon


Richard Townsend
 

That's pretty much what I was thinking. B&W photos might be scarce since with some film black-on-red = black. FWIW, Socony-Vacuum (another baby Standard - Standard Oil Company of New York) had some bright red cars so maybe that was something some Standards (two, anyway) did in common.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2020 7:14 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Richard Townsend wrote:

This intrigues me. I checked my stash of Champ decals and the diagram, copyright 1948, calls out a "bright red" tank. 

     Photograph would be nice, of course. But AFAIK all the early Champ stuff is totally prototype based, even if some lettering is a little crude. I am not aware of any Champ foibles from the 1948 era.

Tony Thompson




Brian Carlson
 

1948 is still in the post war optimism era. Could it have been a one off for display purposes. 

It wouldn’t be the first time that error was made. A certain heavily over-represented obscure tank car in gray/silver comes to mind.  

Brian J. Carlson 

On Jun 27, 2020, at 10:14 PM, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:


Richard Townsend wrote:

This intrigues me. I checked my stash of Champ decals and the diagram, copyright 1948, calls out a "bright red" tank. 

     Photograph would be nice, of course. But AFAIK all the early Champ stuff is totally prototype based, even if some lettering is a little crude. I am not aware of any Champ foibles from the 1948 era.

Tony Thompson




Tony Thompson
 

Richard Townsend wrote:

This intrigues me. I checked my stash of Champ decals and the diagram, copyright 1948, calls out a "bright red" tank. 

     Photograph would be nice, of course. But AFAIK all the early Champ stuff is totally prototype based, even if some lettering is a little crude. I am not aware of any Champ foibles from the 1948 era.

Tony Thompson




Eric Hansmann
 

After a couple quick searches I did find a few Conoco tank cars on Colorado narrow gauge lines but none seemed to have red lettering. Silver tank cars had green lettering and black tank cars had white lettering. 

I was unable to read gallon capacities. 


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jun 27, 2020, at 6:45 PM, Richard Townsend via groups.io <richtownsend@...> wrote:

Good thought. It doesn't say one way or the other, but I'm almost certain it's for a standard gauge car. It is for a 10,000 gallon tank, with a reweigh station of "E.C." where ever that is. And just to be clear, it's the tank that is red. The decal lettering is black. And it's Champ decal HT-53.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Hansmann <eric@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2020 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Is the red decal for a narrow gauge prototype?


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN


Andy Carlson
 

This talk of vintage California gasoline  producers brought up the mention of Tidewater/Associated. Associated was a large brand in California going by "Flying A", not be confused with the Pegasus of Mobile Oil. Richard Hendrickson once sent me a picture of an Associated tank car (what a loss when he left us).

On the cover of one of Ted Cullota's Speedwitch Media's books is a Rio Grande Petroleum tank car. Rio Grande, while being owned by Richfield Oil, was the recipient of the only US 48 states enemy attack during WWll. That attack was just north of the current University Of California Santa Barbara at an area on the coast called Ellwood Beach. The billionaire from the Beeny Babies toy company has raised all of the remaining oil field structures and has made a golf course with expensive homes on that famous site. The Barnsdall/Rio Grande gas station survives in derelict condition surrounded by all of this oppulence. The Rio Grande Petroleum Co. had many gas stations and provided free company road maps both pre-war and post. Richfield kept the company as an individual company until sometime in the 1960s or early 1970s.

I would like to have an HO decal for that Rio Grande tank car!
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

Barnsdall/Rio Grande gas station. Was used in a scene from the movie "The Postman rings twice"
Inline image

_._,_._,_


Dave Parker
 

On tank cars, I think "EC" always means East Chicago (IN).  GA built cars there, and Sinclair serviced theirs at the refinery.
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Steve and Barb Hile
 

Taking one more step into the weeds, for years into the 1930’s the head of Atlantic Refining was headed by John W. Van Dyke, the same guy who lent his name to the UTLX steel tank car designs from the beginning of the century, the Class X and V cars.

 

Steve Hile

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave Parker via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2020 5:22 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

 

At the risk of going way too far down into the weeds:

In 1921, Oildom published a list of all of the operating US refineries.  Atlantic had four, three in PA and (a real rarity) one in GA.

From what I can dredge out of the University of Google, Atlantic's facility in Port Arthur was initially just a crude oil terminal for shipping Spindletop crude to the four refineries.  Refining activity began in 1936, and became more sophisticated during the war and in the 1950s.

To circle back to freight cars, Atlantic probably didn't need any in Port Arthur until the late 1930s at the earliest.  Atlantic Refining (ARX) had a teeny tank-car fleet in the 1930s -- just four cars, but of 12,000-gal capacity.  They must have leased cars for almost all of their rail traffic, but from whom I don't know.  Perhaps UTLX, but Atlantic was a bit of a maverick among the 11 baby standards, so perhaps not.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


Richard Townsend
 

Good thought. It doesn't say one way or the other, but I'm almost certain it's for a standard gauge car. It is for a 10,000 gallon tank, with a reweigh station of "E.C." where ever that is. And just to be clear, it's the tank that is red. The decal lettering is black. And it's Champ decal HT-53.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Hansmann <eric@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2020 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Is the red decal for a narrow gauge prototype?


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jun 27, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Richard Townsend via groups.io <richtownsend@...> wrote:

This intrigues me. I checked my stash of Champ decals and the diagram, copyright 1948, calls out a "bright red" tank. I've dug through all the sources I can think of and have found no sign of a red Conoco tank car. But that  by no means indicates that there weren't any. I hope someone comes up with confirmation of a red car.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Rich C via groups.io <rhcdmc@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2020 12:31 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Group, Don't want to get too far off topic. I have a burning question though about this Conoco paint scheme. Champ made a decal set. I have not found any evidence of this scheme. Disregard the model's maker.

Thanks,
Rich Christie


Eric Hansmann
 

Is the red decal for a narrow gauge prototype?


Eric Hansmann
Murfreesboro, TN

On Jun 27, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Richard Townsend via groups.io <richtownsend@...> wrote:

This intrigues me. I checked my stash of Champ decals and the diagram, copyright 1948, calls out a "bright red" tank. I've dug through all the sources I can think of and have found no sign of a red Conoco tank car. But that  by no means indicates that there weren't any. I hope someone comes up with confirmation of a red car.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Rich C via groups.io <rhcdmc@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2020 12:31 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Group, Don't want to get too far off topic. I have a burning question though about this Conoco paint scheme. Champ made a decal set. I have not found any evidence of this scheme. Disregard the model's maker.

Thanks,
Rich Christie


Richard Townsend
 

This intrigues me. I checked my stash of Champ decals and the diagram, copyright 1948, calls out a "bright red" tank. I've dug through all the sources I can think of and have found no sign of a red Conoco tank car. But that  by no means indicates that there weren't any. I hope someone comes up with confirmation of a red car.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Rich C via groups.io <rhcdmc@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2020 12:31 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Group, Don't want to get too far off topic. I have a burning question though about this Conoco paint scheme. Champ made a decal set. I have not found any evidence of this scheme. Disregard the model's maker.

Thanks,
Rich Christie


Tony Thompson
 

Ken Adams wrote:

The correct locations for the period are:
Shell at Martinez - predominantly  GATX?
Tidewater/Associated at Avon - predominantly UTLX
Union Oil/Phillips 66 at Rodeo - predominantly  ?

         Shell had their own tank car fleet, both SCMX and SCCX (the latter for Shell Chemical, shipping such things as alcohols). Tidewater Associated (the correct company name) had their own fleet of AOX and TWOX and TIDX cars. Union had a big fleet of UOCX cars.
          All these companies used leased cars when they needed a few more, mostly GATX but definitely some NATX and SHPX. And these companies sold each other product on occasion, the reason you might see one company's cars being loaded at another company's rack, and likewise delivering to another company's dealer.

Maybe there were just much fewer/none plain old crude/refined oil product shipments by the early 1950's as the vast network of pipelines carried much of the inbound and outbound Carquinez Straits petroleum product traffic.  Every refinery was also directly linked to by pipeline or had it's own oil dock carrying huge volumes of crude and refined product in large tanker vessels. One of the key reasons refineries were located in that area.

     This is true, and especially for crude oil, all via pipeline or ship. But refined products had to go to a great many places not served by ships or pipelines, thus railcars.

Tony Thompson




Dave Parker
 

At the risk of going way too far down into the weeds:

In 1921, Oildom published a list of all of the operating US refineries.  Atlantic had four, three in PA and (a real rarity) one in GA.

From what I can dredge out of the University of Google, Atlantic's facility in Port Arthur was initially just a crude oil terminal for shipping Spindletop crude to the four refineries.  Refining activity began in 1936, and became more sophisticated during the war and in the 1950s.

To circle back to freight cars, Atlantic probably didn't need any in Port Arthur until the late 1930s at the earliest.  Atlantic Refining (ARX) had a teeny tank-car fleet in the 1930s -- just four cars, but of 12,000-gal capacity.  They must have leased cars for almost all of their rail traffic, but from whom I don't know.  Perhaps UTLX, but Atlantic was a bit of a maverick among the 11 baby standards, so perhaps not.

--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


mopacfirst
 

I know we're getting a bit off topic here, but the Atlantic Refinery at Port Arthur was founded around 1917, more than likely to draw from the Beaumont and East Texas oilfields, and to ship refined product from there to their marketing territory.  We dug up some redwood pipe there in 2007 or so that had probably been installed for the first refinery units, referencing another topic related to steam era freight cars that has been discussed on this list.  I suspect that Arco probably unloaded the refinery due to its age, as evidenced by the fact that Fina built a lot of new units, which used large equipment that came to the site on more modern freight cars.

I once looked to see whether the sidings in front of the plant still had anything like a sign that marked them as Atreco, but I never did see any.

Ron Merrick


Dave Parker
 

Just to clarify a bit on some oil company history in the steam era:

Atlantic was one of the 11 "baby standard" spinoffs from the 1911 breakup of Standard Oil.  Its assigned territory was just PA and DE, and it was unique in that it declined its exclusive marketing rights there, thus freeing it up to operate retail outlets just about anywhere. With the addition of some southeast and Gulf Coast infrastructure, Atlantic became a name brand up and down the east coast (and perhaps over into Ohio).  The merger with Ritchfield to create what eventually became Arco occurred in 1965, beyond the scope of this group.

Continental (Conoco) was the Rocky Mountain baby standard, and initially assigned ID, MT, WY, UT, CO, and NM.  Backed by some J P Morgan financing, Conoco gobbled up a number of smaller oil companies, allowing it to aggressively expand its territory across the heartland, and even (briefly, in the 1940s) to the mid-Atlantic states.  In the 1950s, Conoco tried unsuccessfully to expand westward to the Pacific coast.  Thus, for most of our period of interest, Conoco's territory was largely comprised of its original six-state area, plus AZ and a wide swath of states extending north from TX and east to IL and KY
--
Dave Parker
Swall Meadows, CA


anthony wagner
 

Ron, Look up Atlantic Petrolium Co in Wikipedia. Hq in Philadelphia PA  later became Atlantic-Richfield, still later Arco, and finally part of Sunoco. Part of Arco was sold to BP.  Conoco was Continental Oil and Transportation Co hq Ogden Utah and has a much more complex history. As of 2002 the company merged with Phillips Petroleum to become Conoco-Phillips. Basically Atlantic was eastern US and Conoco western US during the steam era. Tony Wagner

On Saturday, June 27, 2020, 2:16:52 PM CDT, mopacfirst <ron.merrick@...> wrote:


For information, the Atlantic Refining Co. refinery mentioned was acquired by Fina (American Petrofina) past the timeline of this list, and operated under that name for upwards of thirty years.  The Fina company was acquired by Total (pronounced to-TAL) and exists today, greatly expanded.  Atreco was a siding, and the plant's physical location is at the north edge of Port Arthur, bordered on the west by Port Neches.  The railroad serving it was and is the KCS.

Ron Merrick


Ken Adams
 

Oops "switched" in my list of Carquinez south shore refineries to be switched by local power from Port Costa in the early 1950's.

The correct locations for the period are:
Shell at Martinez - predominantly  GATX?
Tidewater/Associated at Avon - predominantly UTLX
Union Oil/Phillips 66 at Rodeo - predominantly  ?

Who did Shell use for tank car transportation inbound and outbound? Garth's list indicates GATX and Tidewater UTLX with a mix of others?   Ted Culotta's blog https://prototopics.blogspot.com/2019/12/shell-chemical-tank-cars-colors.html
has some interesting information but it is for Shell chemical tanks not plain old crude/refined oil shipments.  John Barry's 1944 list is very interesting. Would the 1950-54 period which I model have a similar car owner distribution?

Maybe there were just much fewer/none plain old crude/refined oil product shipments by the early 1950's as the vast network of pipelines carried much of the inbound and outbound Carquinez Straits petroleum product traffic.  Every refinery was also directly linked to by pipeline or had it's own oil dock carrying huge volumes of crude and refined product in large tanker vessels. One of the key reasons refineries were located in that area.

Every time I visit my LHS Just Trains store in north Concord I have to remember that the storage tanks across Arnold Drive to the north are the start of the vast former Tidewater/Associated refinery complex. A small Avon yard still exists according to Google Earth but all of Avon is off limits due to strict refinery security. Avon was of course also the northern start/terminus of my other detail modeling interest, the SP San Ramon Valley line. 

--
Ken Adams
Still in splendid Shelter In Place solitude, about half way up Walnut Creek


Richard Townsend
 

In the billboard scheme, all I have ever seen is black CONOCO on silver and white CONOCO on black. Black on red would be cool if it ever existed. Maybe a holdover from the old UTC days?

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, OR


-----Original Message-----
From: Rich C via groups.io <rhcdmc@...>
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2020 12:31 pm
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] CONOCO Proto 2000 8K Gallon Type 21 Riveted Tank Car Questions

Group, Don't want to get too far off topic. I have a burning question though about this Conoco paint scheme. Champ made a decal set. I have not found any evidence of this scheme. Disregard the model's maker.

Thanks,
Rich Christie