N&W Ladderless Tank Car
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Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Friends, As I was wandering through the N&W photos on the Virginia Tech web site ( https://imagebase.lib.vt.edu/browse.php?folio_ID=/trans ), I stumbled upon the attached photo of an N&W tank car. It was part of the group "Norfolk and Western Railroad Photograph Negatives 8X10 black & white" that are presented in reverse as negatives rather than as B&W prints. I found the lack of a side ladder up to the dome platform very curious, so I downloaded it and and flipped the tones with Graphic Converter for your enjoyment and approval. Why this car should be missing its ladder is beyond me. I see no wreck damage. I can understand no ladder if there is no platform on that side of the car. The car is almost pristine, so maybe they just hadn't gotten around to putting on the ladder after repairs or repainting. Enjoy the mystery. Yours Aye, Garth Groff
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Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Well, maybe I should have added the link. Garth
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 1:53 PM Garth Groff and Sally Sanford via groups.io <mallardlodge1000=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
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Rich C
Garth, The ladder is on the other side of the car. Many people are not aware that most general service tank cars had only one ladder! Rich
On Tuesday, August 25, 2020, 12:56:15 PM CDT, Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:
Well, maybe I should have added the link. Garth On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 1:53 PM Garth Groff and Sally Sanford via groups.io <mallardlodge1000=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
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Tony Thompson
But Garth is right that usually there is no dome walk if there is no ladder. Usually. Tony Thompson
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Garth Groff and Sally Sanford
Rich, I'm well aware that many tank cars did have ladders on one side only. That said, I've never seen a photo of a tank car that had a dome platform on both sides, and only one ladder. Usually the "back side" is plain. Maybe this is correct for this car's class. I would love to see more photographs. Yours Aye, Garth Groff
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Mark Vinski
What I think are chalk guidelines used to keep the lettering straight look like decal edges. They apparently did not help to keep the reporting marks and stripes straight.
Mark Vinski
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vapeurchapelon
Hello friends,
when I saw the car in this clean condition and realized that 12-wheel "battleship" gondola in the back ground in about same condition I think it could have been some promoting event to show these cars, and maybe the tank car just wasn't completely finished, which didn't matter if photographed only from the other side?
Regards
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. August 2020 um 01:09 Uhr
Von: "Garth Groff and Sally Sanford" <mallardlodge1000@...> An: main@realstmfc.groups.io Betreff: Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W Ladderless Tank Car Rich,
I'm well aware that many tank cars did have ladders on one side only. That said, I've never seen a photo of a tank car that had a dome platform on both sides, and only one ladder. Usually the "back side" is plain. Maybe this is correct for this car's class. I would love to see more photographs.
Yours Aye,
Garth Groff
On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 1:59 PM Rich C via groups.io <rhcdmc=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
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Johannes, Folks,
This photo was almost certainly taken by an N&W photographer at an N&W car shop. The two cars pictured are both in new paint and lettering, as noted by Johannes and others. A careful look at the tank car indicates that it may not yet have been reweighed. So
no, it's probably not a "special" occasion, it's just two cars outside the car shops, fresh from repairs, rebuilding, or simply repainting, waiting to go to the scales.
This is, of course, not a builder's photo. The tank car
looks like an AC&F type 21. As
such, this photo may represent the N&W's acquisition of a 2nd hand car, or their documentation of repair/repaint of a car they have owned for some time. Either situation tends to lend credence to the idea that the car was built with 2 ladders and that the
right hand ladder has subsequently been removed, whether because the owner (prior or N&W) felt it was unnecessary, or because it was damaged, leaving the dome platform
(so as not to require patching holes in the tank).
No great mystery here, just an oddball car that probably
only matters to N&W modelers 😉
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 2:44 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W Ladderless Tank Car Hello friends,
when I saw the car in this clean condition and realized that 12-wheel "battleship" gondola in the back ground in about same condition I think it could have been some promoting event to show these cars, and maybe the tank car just wasn't completely finished,
which didn't matter if photographed only from the other side?
Regards
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
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jace6315
Here's another view of the same car, same side (handbrake, B-end, to the left): https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19950 Another company service tank, B-end to the right, ladder visible: https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=138888 The battleship gon behind the tank also looks to have a dent (in the corner). Jim Matthews
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 7:55:35 AM EDT, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Johannes, Folks,
This photo was almost certainly taken by an N&W photographer at an N&W car shop. The two cars pictured are both in new paint and lettering, as noted by Johannes and others. A careful look at the tank car indicates that it may not yet have been reweighed. So
no, it's probably not a "special" occasion, it's just two cars outside the car shops, fresh from repairs, rebuilding, or simply repainting, waiting to go to the scales.
This is, of course, not a builder's photo. The tank car
looks like an AC&F type 21. As
such, this photo may represent the N&W's acquisition of a 2nd hand car, or their documentation of repair/repaint of a car they have owned for some time. Either situation tends to lend credence to the idea that the car was built with 2 ladders and that the
right hand ladder has subsequently been removed, whether because the owner (prior or N&W) felt it was unnecessary, or because it was damaged, leaving the dome platform
(so as not to require patching holes in the tank).
No great mystery here, just an oddball car that probably
only matters to N&W modelers 😉
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 2:44 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W Ladderless Tank Car Hello friends,
when I saw the car in this clean condition and realized that 12-wheel "battleship" gondola in the back ground in about same condition I think it could have been some promoting event to show these cars, and maybe the tank car just wasn't completely finished,
which didn't matter if photographed only from the other side?
Regards
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
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Jim,
Just a quick note on conventions. The sides of the car are denoted when looking at the car from the B-end. So the ladder on this car is on the LEFT side. Using conventions avoids confusion 😉
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of jace6315 via groups.io <jace6315@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 9:49 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io> Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W Ladderless Tank Car Here's another view of the same car, same side (handbrake, B-end, to the left):
https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19950
Another company service tank, B-end to the right, ladder visible:
https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=138888
The battleship gon behind the tank also looks to have a dent (in the corner).
Jim Matthews
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 7:55:35 AM EDT, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Johannes, Folks,
This photo was almost certainly taken by an N&W photographer at an N&W car shop. The two cars pictured are both in new paint and lettering, as noted by Johannes and others. A careful look at the tank car indicates that it may not yet have been reweighed. So
no, it's probably not a "special" occasion, it's just two cars outside the car shops, fresh from repairs, rebuilding, or simply repainting, waiting to go to the scales.
This is, of course, not a builder's photo. The tank car
looks like an AC&F type 21. As
such, this photo may represent the N&W's acquisition of a 2nd hand car, or their documentation of repair/repaint of a car they have owned for some time. Either situation tends to lend credence to the idea that the car was built with 2 ladders and that the
right hand ladder has subsequently been removed, whether because the owner (prior or N&W) felt it was unnecessary, or because it
was damaged, leaving the dome platform (so as not to require patching holes in the tank).
No
great mystery here, just an oddball car that probably only matters to N&W modelers 😉
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce
Smith
Auburn,
AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 2:44 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W Ladderless Tank Car Hello friends,
when I saw the car in this clean condition and realized that 12-wheel "battleship" gondola in the back ground in about same condition I think it could have been some promoting event to show these cars, and maybe the tank car just wasn't completely finished,
which didn't matter if photographed only from the other side?
Regards
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
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Schuyler Larrabee
Since these tanks seem to be in “company service,” and not in interchange, a lot of the rules about what the cars “had to have” didn’t apply. That may explain the lack of a ladder and a platform.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of jace6315 via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 10:50 AM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io; main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W Ladderless Tank Car
Here's another view of the same car, same side (handbrake, B-end, to the left): https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19950
There is a dent in the tank above the number two so maybe it was in for wreck repairs. That whole end of the car looks a little off but that could just be the perspective of the photograph. Either way, it's a new repaint with chalk lines still visible. The car is in company service, other larger capacity tanks of similar vintage also have one ladder but alas with only one platform (https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19954, https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19953). The ladder on this car is on the right side when looking towards the B-end. Maybe the railroad wanted to keep that consistent.
Another company service tank, B-end to the right, ladder visible: https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=138888
The battleship gon behind the tank also looks to have a dent (in the corner).
Jim Matthews
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 7:55:35 AM EDT, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Johannes, Folks,
This photo was almost certainly taken by an N&W photographer at an N&W car shop. The two cars pictured are both in new paint and lettering, as noted by Johannes and others. A careful look at the tank car indicates that it may not yet have been reweighed. So no, it's probably not a "special" occasion, it's just two cars outside the car shops, fresh from repairs, rebuilding, or simply repainting, waiting to go to the scales.
This is, of course, not a builder's photo. The tank car looks like an AC&F type 21. As such, this photo may represent the N&W's acquisition of a 2nd hand car, or their documentation of repair/repaint of a car they have owned for some time. Either situation tends to lend credence to the idea that the car was built with 2 ladders and that the right hand ladder has subsequently been removed, whether because the owner (prior or N&W) felt it was unnecessary, or because it was damaged, leaving the dome platform (so as not to require patching holes in the tank).
No great mystery here, just an oddball car that probably only matters to N&W modelers 😉
Regards, Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...>
Hello friends,
when I saw the car in this clean condition and realized that 12-wheel "battleship" gondola in the back ground in about same condition I think it could have been some promoting event to show these cars, and maybe the tank car just wasn't completely finished, which didn't matter if photographed only from the other side?
Regards
Johannes Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
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Schuyler,
Huh?? There was no restriction on tank cars with a single ladder and platform in interchange. They were common.
Regards,
Bruce
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 11:20 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W Ladderless Tank Car Since these tanks seem to be in “company service,” and not in interchange, a lot of the rules about what the cars “had to have” didn’t apply. That may explain the lack of a ladder and a platform.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of
jace6315 via groups.io
Here's another view of the same car, same side (handbrake, B-end, to the left): https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19950
There is a dent in the tank above the number two so maybe it was in for wreck repairs. That whole end of the car looks a little off but that could just be the perspective of the photograph. Either way, it's a new repaint with chalk lines still visible. The car is in company service, other larger capacity tanks of similar vintage also have one ladder but alas with only one platform (https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19954, https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19953). The ladder on this car is on the right side when looking towards the B-end. Maybe the railroad wanted to keep that consistent.
Another company service tank, B-end to the right, ladder visible: https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=138888
The battleship gon behind the tank also looks to have a dent (in the corner).
Jim Matthews
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Schuyler Larrabee
Sure, that’s right. But the N&W car had no platform. My point is that in as much as the car seems to be lacking “normal” appliances, since it was in company service, they were not required to have everything necessary to be interchanged.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 12:25 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W Ladderless Tank Car
Schuyler,
Huh?? There was no restriction on tank cars with a single ladder and platform in interchange. They were common.
Regards, Bruce
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...>
Since these tanks seem to be in “company service,” and not in interchange, a lot of the rules about what the cars “had to have” didn’t apply. That may explain the lack of a ladder and a platform.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of jace6315 via groups.io
Here's another view of the same car, same side (handbrake, B-end, to the left): https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19950
There is a dent in the tank above the number two so maybe it was in for wreck repairs. That whole end of the car looks a little off but that could just be the perspective of the photograph. Either way, it's a new repaint with chalk lines still visible. The car is in company service, other larger capacity tanks of similar vintage also have one ladder but alas with only one platform (https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19954, https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19953). The ladder on this car is on the right side when looking towards the B-end. Maybe the railroad wanted to keep that consistent.
Another company service tank, B-end to the right, ladder visible: https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=138888
The battleship gon behind the tank also looks to have a dent (in the corner).
Jim Matthews
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Schuyler,
I repeat... huh? Which tank car does not have a platform (or ladder)?? I have not seen any photos of N&W tank cars in this discussion that could be described as "lacking normal appliances".
The original car of the discussion #516420, has a platform, but no ladder on the right side. No left side views were provided, but since single ladders were typically on the left side, it is reasonable to assume a ladder and platform on that side. Certainly,
without a photo of the left side, it is not reasonable to assume that there is no ladder or platform on that side.
Jim provided 2 additional cars:
#516416, seen in two different views, has a ladder and platform on the left side. BTW, this is an interesting 14,000 gallon car, quite large for the time it was built!
#516005 has a ladder and platform on the left side.
So, what tank car are we talking about here that has no platform (or ladder)?
Regards,
Bruce
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 11:29 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W Ladderless Tank Car Sure, that’s right. But the N&W car had no platform. My point is that in as much as the car seems to be lacking “normal” appliances, since it was in company service, they were not required to have everything necessary to be interchanged.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Bruce Smith
Schuyler,
Huh?? There was no restriction on tank cars with a single ladder and platform in interchange. They were common.
Regards, Bruce
From:
main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Schuyler Larrabee via groups.io <schuyler.larrabee@...>
Since these tanks seem to be in “company service,” and not in interchange, a lot of the rules about what the cars “had to have” didn’t apply. That may explain the lack of a ladder and a platform.
Schuyler
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of jace6315 via groups.io
Here's another view of the same car, same side (handbrake, B-end, to the left): https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19950
There is a dent in the tank above the number two so maybe it was in for wreck repairs. That whole end of the car looks a little off but that could just be the perspective of the photograph. Either way, it's a new repaint with chalk lines still visible. The car is in company service, other larger capacity tanks of similar vintage also have one ladder but alas with only one platform (https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19954, https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19953). The ladder on this car is on the right side when looking towards the B-end. Maybe the railroad wanted to keep that consistent.
Another company service tank, B-end to the right, ladder visible: https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=138888
The battleship gon behind the tank also looks to have a dent (in the corner).
Jim Matthews
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jace6315
Bruce, Understand. I think I have more of a problem with left and right than the freight car conventions. Jim
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 11:10:06 AM EDT, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Jim,
Just a quick note on conventions. The sides of the car are denoted when looking at the car from the B-end. So the ladder on this car is on the LEFT side. Using conventions avoids confusion 😉
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of jace6315 via groups.io <jace6315@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 9:49 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io>; main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@realstmfc.groups.io> Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W Ladderless Tank Car Here's another view of the same car, same side (handbrake, B-end, to the left):
https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=19950
Another company service tank, B-end to the right, ladder visible:
https://www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/detail.php?ID=138888
The battleship gon behind the tank also looks to have a dent (in the corner).
Jim Matthews
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 7:55:35 AM EDT, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Johannes, Folks,
This photo was almost certainly taken by an N&W photographer at an N&W car shop. The two cars pictured are both in new paint and lettering, as noted by Johannes and others. A careful look at the tank car indicates that it may not yet have been reweighed. So
no, it's probably not a "special" occasion, it's just two cars outside the car shops, fresh from repairs, rebuilding, or simply repainting, waiting to go to the scales.
This is, of course, not a builder's photo. The tank car
looks like an AC&F type 21. As
such, this photo may represent the N&W's acquisition of a 2nd hand car, or their documentation of repair/repaint of a car they have owned for some time. Either situation tends to lend credence to the idea that the car was built with 2 ladders and that the
right hand ladder has subsequently been removed, whether because the owner (prior or N&W) felt it was unnecessary, or because it
was damaged, leaving the dome platform (so as not to require patching holes in the tank).
No
great mystery here, just an oddball car that probably only matters to N&W modelers 😉
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce
Smith
Auburn,
AL
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of vapeurchapelon <j.markwart@...>
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 2:44 AM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] N&W Ladderless Tank Car Hello friends,
when I saw the car in this clean condition and realized that 12-wheel "battleship" gondola in the back ground in about same condition I think it could have been some promoting event to show these cars, and maybe the tank car just wasn't completely finished,
which didn't matter if photographed only from the other side?
Regards
Johannes
Modeling the early post-war years up to about 1953
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Jack Mullen
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 09:29 AM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Umm, what N& W car? The OP was about the car with platform but no ladder on the RS. True, but the dome platform and ladder are safety appliances, so the requirements apply to essentially all equipment, not just those in interchange. Tank cars built after May 1, 1917 are required to have 1 dome platform, 1 ladder, 1 dome handhold, ad 1 dome platform handhold. There's no evidence that the car in the photo that began this thread doesn't meet that requirement. Jack Mullen
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