Topics

Flat Black


Donald B. Valentine
 

 

I can’t say anything about Star brand paint as I’ve never seen it or used it but I think you’re all wet when it comes to Tru-Color. As I’ve stated on this list before, I knew Accu-Paints George Bishop very well. The first four NERS decal sets were both designed and printed by George & Ron for me. I used Accu-Paint, and now the same paint sold as Tru-Color, since it was first introduced back in the 1980’s when Floquil began giving George a lot of nonsense. In all these years I cannot recall ever having used Accu-Paint thinner and know I’ve never used Tru-Color thinner. I use a mixture of automotive lacquer thinner and zylene and have never had a problem in doing so.

 

Cordially, Don Valentine


Tony Thompson
 

But Star Brand sticks to resin and Tru-color sure does not, thinners in common or not. And BTW Star thinner stays in its bottle, which is certainly not the case with TruC.
Tony Thompson 


On Sep 4, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Lee Thwaits <leeoldsa@...> wrote:

Using Star Brand paint I initially had a problem with some minor chipping over time.  Talking to Jimmy
Booth of PBL of the problem he told me that it is imperative that use their thinner with both TruColor and Star Brand paints because of a chemical compatibility with other thinners. Since using it I have had no problems (over 20 O scale cars).
Lee Thwaits


Lee Thwaits
 

Using Star Brand paint I initially had a problem with some minor chipping over time.  Talking to Jimmy
Booth of PBL of the problem he told me that it is imperative that use their thinner with both TruColor and Star Brand paints because of a chemical compatibility with other thinners. Since using it I have had no problems (over 20 O scale cars).
Lee Thwaits


Tony Thompson
 

Denny Anspach wrote:

I have yet to use the P-B-L Star Brand model paints, reliably reported to be basically formulated identical to TruColor and Accupaint. Are they glossy or flat  Some one and some the other? Is the black actually flat, or otherwise?

    Not sure whee that BS came from. The Star paints use a solvent thinner. They might have the same pigments as Tru-Color . . . but they sure paint differently. I would say they are a satin finish. I coat them with gloss before decalling.

Tony Thompson




Denny Anspach
 

I have yet to use the P-B-L Star Brand model paints, reliably reported to be basically formulated identical to TruColor and Accupaint. Are they glossy or flat  Some one and some the other? Is the black actually flat, or otherwise?

Denny

Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento, CA 95864




charlie9
 

I have had good luck with Rustoleum rattle cans from Walmart.  They have a wide variety of colors and finishes.

Charlie Schildt (grouchy German)


John Sykes III
 

I think that, all in all, the most important factor is the evaporation rate of the solvent.  Acetone evaporates the fastest.  I've had the paint dry before it hits the surface being painted with acetone as a airbrush thinner.  Lacquer thinner is somewhat slower (depending on the VOC % - higher VOC = faster drying).  Toluene and zylenes are about the same (except toluene attacks plastics more - it was the main ingredient of the old Testors plastic cement) and Butyl Cellosolve* (2-butoxyethanol) is the slowest.  The key is the % of aromatics (VOCs).  I also have Naptha VM&P but have not used it.  I am just talking about lacquers here (old Floquil and ScaleCoat I).  A lot of the personal preferences with lacquers is due to the heat and humidity where they are being used.  I live in Florida (hot and humid) so that colors my preferences.

With enamels (e.g. ScaleCoat II), again the main issue is the VOC content of the paint thinner (a/k/a mineral spirits, a/k/a etc., etc.).  "Low odor" paint thinners have lower aromatics/VOC concentrations, hence lower solvent abilities - not so good for cleaning brushes (air or bristle).  Turpentine was/is a whole different animal (I don't use it, but many artists still do with oil paints) based on turpenes (e.g. phenols).  I've used lacquer thinner for weathering with SCII flats, very successfully I might say, because when mixed with paint at a 90:10 ratio (thinner to paint) it dries in seconds, which is what I want when weathering, so I can layer dust, grime, rust, etc. in one session.

Note that, as is the case with Diosol, a lot of the above solvents can be mixed to control their solvent ability and drying rate.

*  A mix of 5-10% Butyl Cellosolve & in isopropyl alcohol (91%) makes a good paint stripper (a/k/a Chameleon or Wash Away), but not for use on ABS plastic.  4-6% Butyl Cellosolve in water with a tiny bit of surfactant makes a good decal setting solution (original Hobsco Solvaset or Champ formula).  The new Walthers Solvaset uses a completely different chemistry.  Butyl Cellosolve is a rare bird in that it is soluble in both organics and water.

-- John


Mont Switzer
 

John,

 

Agree completely.  I still use Floquil and Scalecoat I thinning it and cleaning brushes with lacquer thinner.  I use the same lacquer thinner that they use in the body shop and never had a problem…...other than me doing something really stupid.  Quality materials won’t prevent that.  

 

Mont

 

Montford L. Switzer

President

Switzer Tank Lines, Inc.

Fall Creek Leasing, LLC.

mswitzer@...

(765) 836-2914

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of John Sykes III via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2020 6:13 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Black

 

Mont:

I use standard paint thinner (a/k/a mineral spirits, a/k/a Stoddard solvent) with SCII (I do not use the low-odor paint thinner).

SCI is a whole different problem.  Since DioSol has gone the way of the dinosaurs, you have lacquer thinner (do not use the junk they sell as HD or Lowes, go to a good paint store and get the "hot" automotive lacquer thinner), and Steve Hoxie uses xylenes (a/k/a xylol).  I've tried the xylenes and it works well but is more expensive than the lacquer thinner (I get my LT at Sherwin Williams).  The junk they sell at HD, Lowes and Ace is only good for cleaning brushes, spills, etc.

If you are in California, getting these solvents may be a problem, so drive over to Nevada.  ScaleCoat paints (both I & II) require a high-VOC thinner to work properly.  I think the latest can I got was like 800 g/L VOCs (would give a California tree-hugger a stroke!).

-- John


Kenneth Montero
 

Bill,

From an earlier posting by Jon Miller on August 31 - these folks buy & sell Floquil, and currently list Glaze for sale (I just checked):


Ken Montero


On 09/01/2020 7:12 PM WILLIAM PARDIE <pardiew001@...> wrote:


I had a fair stash of flotilla when they shut down and have accumulated more of their basic colors since.  What I did no have was Dio sol.

I got the mix for Diosol from a trusted modeler.
It is :

       40%   Toluene
        40%   Nathan
        20%   Xylene

I think I have a lifetime supply of these.  Now if I could just find Floquil Glaze.

Bill Pardie

   

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone



-------- Original message --------
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Date: 9/1/20 12:26 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Black

John Sykes wrote:

SCI is a whole different problem.  Since DioSol has gone the way of the dinosaurs, you have lacquer thinner (do not use the junk they sell as HD or Lowes, go to a good paint store and get the "hot" automotive lacquer thinner), and Steve Hoxie uses xylenes (a/k/a xylol).  I've tried the xylenes and it works well but is more expensive than the lacquer thinner (I get my LT at Sherwin Williams).  The junk they sell at HD, Lowes and Ace is only good for cleaning brushes, spills, etc.

If you are in California, getting these solvents may be a problem, so drive over to Nevada.  

     Good "professional" paint stores have all this stuff in California. The "Big Box" boys don't want to do the paperwork, but it can certainly be sold here.
      Incidentally, as John knows, there is no unique entity "paint thinner." A wide variety of formulations have been and still are so marketed. Mineral sports usually dominate, but lots of other things, such as turpentine, naphtha, toluene and MEK may also be present. And for those not familiar, "VOC" stands for Volatile Organic Compounds."

Tony Thompson
Berkeley, CA




Craig Zeni
 

As Mont says, I use the SC II thinner.  I put too much time into models to risk ruining one by trying to cheap out on the thinner, no matter whose paint.  Hardware store lacquer thinner gets used for clean up but for the actual finish? Manufacturer's thinner.  A $10 can of SC II thinner I bought 10 years ago is barely half gone.    The lone exception is using Mr Self Leveling Thinner with Tru Color; the Tru Color thinner is too darn volatile and obscenely expensive.  The Mr SLT works great on the stuff.

Craig Zeni
Cary NC


Steve SANDIFER
 

Same here. Used HD stuff today. However they have taken my MEK away and replaced it with MEK Substitute.  Living in Houston.

 

 

J. Stephen Sandifer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jerry Michels
Sent: Tuesday, September 1, 2020 6:19 PM
To: main@realstmfc.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Black

 

The junk they sell at HD, Lowes and Ace is only good for cleaning brushes, spills, etc.

 

Hmm, 20+ years of using HD lacquer thinner with excellent results.  Of course I buy in Texas and perhaps it is real lacquer thinner.  Jerry Michels


Andy Carlson
 

"Lacquer Thinner" is much like blended wine--it has 3-4, perhaps more, components. The blends determine the quality and the traits in what they are designed to provide. Almost all lacquer thinners can thin lacquer, some just are better for our modeling purposes. I still consider Hardware Store Lacquer Thinner to be a clean up liquid. The better automotive Lacquer Reducers will more often give superior results than crap shot hardware store versions. Acetone is probably the major component for Lacquer Thinners which can and will thin lacquers; it just won't do a good job by flashing off too quickly. That is why the other components are blended in. I prefer thinners which are slow flashing, a "Hot Shop" reducer.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA

On Tuesday, September 1, 2020, 4:18:58 PM PDT, Jerry Michels <gjmichels53@...> wrote:


The junk they sell at HD, Lowes and Ace is only good for cleaning brushes, spills, etc.

Hmm, 20+ years of using HD lacquer thinner with excellent results.  Of course I buy in Texas and perhaps it is real lacquer thinner.  Jerry Michels


Jerry Michels
 

The junk they sell at HD, Lowes and Ace is only good for cleaning brushes, spills, etc.

Hmm, 20+ years of using HD lacquer thinner with excellent results.  Of course I buy in Texas and perhaps it is real lacquer thinner.  Jerry Michels


WILLIAM PARDIE
 

I had a fair stash of flotilla when they shut down and have accumulated more of their basic colors since.  What I did no have was Dio sol.

I got the mix for Diosol from a trusted modeler.
It is :

       40%   Toluene
        40%   Nathan
        20%   Xylene

I think I have a lifetime supply of these.  Now if I could just find Floquil Glaze.

Bill Pardie

   

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Tony Thompson <tony@...>
Date: 9/1/20 12:26 PM (GMT-10:00)
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Black

John Sykes wrote:

SCI is a whole different problem.  Since DioSol has gone the way of the dinosaurs, you have lacquer thinner (do not use the junk they sell as HD or Lowes, go to a good paint store and get the "hot" automotive lacquer thinner), and Steve Hoxie uses xylenes (a/k/a xylol).  I've tried the xylenes and it works well but is more expensive than the lacquer thinner (I get my LT at Sherwin Williams).  The junk they sell at HD, Lowes and Ace is only good for cleaning brushes, spills, etc.

If you are in California, getting these solvents may be a problem, so drive over to Nevada.  

     Good "professional" paint stores have all this stuff in California. The "Big Box" boys don't want to do the paperwork, but it can certainly be sold here.
      Incidentally, as John knows, there is no unique entity "paint thinner." A wide variety of formulations have been and still are so marketed. Mineral sports usually dominate, but lots of other things, such as turpentine, naphtha, toluene and MEK may also be present. And for those not familiar, "VOC" stands for Volatile Organic Compounds."

Tony Thompson
Berkeley, CA




Tony Thompson
 

John Sykes wrote:

SCI is a whole different problem.  Since DioSol has gone the way of the dinosaurs, you have lacquer thinner (do not use the junk they sell as HD or Lowes, go to a good paint store and get the "hot" automotive lacquer thinner), and Steve Hoxie uses xylenes (a/k/a xylol).  I've tried the xylenes and it works well but is more expensive than the lacquer thinner (I get my LT at Sherwin Williams).  The junk they sell at HD, Lowes and Ace is only good for cleaning brushes, spills, etc.

If you are in California, getting these solvents may be a problem, so drive over to Nevada.  

     Good "professional" paint stores have all this stuff in California. The "Big Box" boys don't want to do the paperwork, but it can certainly be sold here.
      Incidentally, as John knows, there is no unique entity "paint thinner." A wide variety of formulations have been and still are so marketed. Mineral sports usually dominate, but lots of other things, such as turpentine, naphtha, toluene and MEK may also be present. And for those not familiar, "VOC" stands for Volatile Organic Compounds."

Tony Thompson
Berkeley, CA




John Sykes III
 

Mont:

I use standard paint thinner (a/k/a mineral spirits, a/k/a Stoddard solvent) with SCII (I do not use the low-odor paint thinner).

SCI is a whole different problem.  Since DioSol has gone the way of the dinosaurs, you have lacquer thinner (do not use the junk they sell as HD or Lowes, go to a good paint store and get the "hot" automotive lacquer thinner), and Steve Hoxie uses xylenes (a/k/a xylol).  I've tried the xylenes and it works well but is more expensive than the lacquer thinner (I get my LT at Sherwin Williams).  The junk they sell at HD, Lowes and Ace is only good for cleaning brushes, spills, etc.

If you are in California, getting these solvents may be a problem, so drive over to Nevada.  ScaleCoat paints (both I & II) require a high-VOC thinner to work properly.  I think the latest can I got was like 800 g/L VOCs (would give a California tree-hugger a stroke!).

-- John


Mont Switzer
 

I learned the hard way to always use Scalecoat II thinner with Scalecoat II paint.  Mont Switzer


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] on behalf of John Sykes III via groups.io [johnsykesiii@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2020 5:14 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Black

For dead flat black paint, believe it or not, I have been using Krylon Black Primer/Ultra-Flat.  Rattle can only, but it is as black as the monolith!  It dries very fast (usually <10 min) and shrinks a bit too, so if you put it on a little heavy, wait until it dries, all may not be lost (as long as you don't have sags or runs).

For black where decals need to be added, I use either ScaleCoat I or II (depending on whether the model is metal or plastic).  By the way, I use standard lacquer thinner with the ScaleCoat I and put it in a 200° oven for about 1/2 hour or so to dry.  Comes out looking like a new Steinway piano!

-- John


John Sykes III
 

For dead flat black paint, believe it or not, I have been using Krylon Black Primer/Ultra-Flat.  Rattle can only, but it is as black as the monolith!  It dries very fast (usually <10 min) and shrinks a bit too, so if you put it on a little heavy, wait until it dries, all may not be lost (as long as you don't have sags or runs).

For black where decals need to be added, I use either ScaleCoat I or II (depending on whether the model is metal or plastic).  By the way, I use standard lacquer thinner with the ScaleCoat I and put it in a 200° oven for about 1/2 hour or so to dry.  Comes out looking like a new Steinway piano!

-- John


Nelson Moyer
 

Check Hobbylinc for Tamiya paints. I just bought 12 cans of Tamiya Fine Light Gray Primer, and they discount Tamiya products 20%.

 

Nelson Moyer

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jon Miller
Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2020 12:29 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Flat Black

 

On 9/1/2020 10:14 AM, Ken Adams wrote:

And Tamiya's Matte Black

 And there's a place on eBay that sells Tamiya's lacquer (flat black among others).  Appears to be real lacquer as I have added from my gallon of lacquer thinner and it didn't gel, just thins down.  Never have seen it in the US.  I have ordered and got half a dozen containers.  It's not cheap.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tamiya-Lacquer-Paint-Gloss-82101-82180-LP-1-to-LP-80-10ml-multiple-choice/373084232133?hash=item56dd8d99c5:g:sG4AAOSw76hefAn5

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Jon Miller
 

On 9/1/2020 10:14 AM, Ken Adams wrote:
And Tamiya's Matte Black

 And there's a place on eBay that sells Tamiya's lacquer (flat black among others).  Appears to be real lacquer as I have added from my gallon of lacquer thinner and it didn't gel, just thins down.  Never have seen it in the US.  I have ordered and got half a dozen containers.  It's not cheap.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tamiya-Lacquer-Paint-Gloss-82101-82180-LP-1-to-LP-80-10ml-multiple-choice/373084232133?hash=item56dd8d99c5:g:sG4AAOSw76hefAn5

-- 
Jon Miller
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax  Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI User
SPROG User
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS