Question about weathering
|
Ray Hutchison
Decided to post this after reading comments about pledge...
I am supremely unconfident about weathering cars and engines. Is there a way to apply overcoat to original finish that might allow for removal of later weathering if one decides that the weathering did not turn out as expected? A finish where acrylic colors might later be removed, for example? (I have noted that there is a GN 4-8-4 with very heavy weathering that has sat at ebay for many months, I think the reason being that the finish is not something that anyone else would want sitting on their layout.) rh |
|
|
|
Brian Shumaker
If you use a solvent based color coat and/or clear coat, water based weathering can be wiped off with isopropyl alcohol before it dries completely. Chalk can be washed off with water. It's best to just practice on throw away cars to get your 'feel'.
Brian |
|
|
|
Pierre Oliver
Ray
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
The best thing to do is get your hands a a stack of cheap freight cars and practice Figure out processes and materials that give you the results you want There’s a large array of products out there to discover Pierre Oliver www.elgincarshops.com www.yarmouthmodelworks.com On Sep 23, 2020, at 8:53 AM, Ray Hutchison <rayhutchison2@...> wrote:
|
|
|
|
Ray,
Take a box car you don't really care about and weather it. Build up the weathering slowly - taking a day or two between to just look at it several times a day to see "when it is enough".. Work from a photo - try to copy some prototype example ... or the work of someone else that you like. Do one side of it - then do the other side differently (more practice, less sacrificial lambs). I use acrylic -washes- applied with a brush ... here are some 'basics'. 1) The roof is almost always more weathered than the sides. 2) Darker colors on the roof and lighter colors on the bottom. 3) Cars sit more than they move - a lot more. So any "streaks" need to be vertical rather than horizontal. 4) Use gravity to let your washes actually move down the car sides. 5) A final light dusting with an air brush helps a lot - I call this the "blending coat" - I usually use a very thin "weathered black" color for this but have also used just dullcoat and other such. 6) Weathered equipment is never "shiny". 7) Weathering on the prototype is a "process" - with variations depending upon where the car has been, how long it's been since it was painted, what kind of service it is in (cement hoppers are entirely different than ore jennies), etc. 8) Be careful not to over do 'special effects' such as bird droppings, rust "lines" along the rivets, etc. 9) I use a combination of "detail painting by hand (grabs and drop steps and other metal parts)" and "general effects (washes - usually done after the detail items but not always). 10) Rust is a job best done sparingly. If you study a photo of a steam era freight yard the first thing you notice is that "all the cars seem to be the same". Closer examination shows subtle differences from this car to the one next to it. That's the look I strive for ... said another way "don't fall in love with just one process/set of steps - variety is the spice of weathering". Your first attempts are likely to be 'failures' (that's why we used an old car we don't care about). Most of the time it will be due to too much rather than too little. Even your worst weathering job will be better than no weathering at all. *G* Keep your test car around and run it on the layout every once in a while - to remind you of "where you aren't going". *W* And how far you've come since you started down this journey. Weathering is like the student mathematician who went to see his girl friend. First he went half way there, then he went half way more, then he went half way more again, etc. He never really got to where his girl was ... but he got close enough for all practical purposes. - Jim P.S. There are many different 'methods' - I prefer acrylic washes. Some guys prefer pan pastels. Some guys like to do it all using an air brush (I consider this to be the least successful). In the end you will develop your own 'process'. Don't forget to vary what you do from car to car - such as the shade of this coat, how much of a particular coat you use, what order you do different steps, etc. |
|
|
|
Ray, Jim,
Additional commentary interspersed ;)
And no pressure, but if a 5-year old can weather cars, so can you ;)
P.S. There are many different 'methods' - I prefer acrylic washes.
I try to use different methods to mix things up to avoid the everything looks the same problem, but also to build skills with different media.
Regards
Bruce
Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
|
|
|
|
Ray,
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
GO FOR IT! It can be daunting to take a nice model and feel like you might ruin it. In chemistry terms, it has a “high activation energy”, but the rewards are many and the risks actually few. Some suggestions beyond what others have posted.
1) Start with Chalks. If you use plain chalks, they are easy to wash off. In addition, when you clear coat, they get much less intense. Chalks with adhesive, such as Bragdon’s or the ones I use, Doc O’Brien's Weathering Powders (Micro Mark https://www.micromark.com/Doc-ObrienS-Powders)
are a little harder to remove but will come off too.
2) I’m a little crazy, but my 1st weathering attempt was a P2K PRR HH1 (N&W Y-3) 2-8-8-2. Weathering a $400 locomotive is enough to keep you focused! You might want to work on a freight car 1st ;)
3) Acrylic washes are also easy to work with. I do them over acrylics, so I have to be careful when removing. The most common approach is something Jim Six called “Q-Tip weathering”. Easy-peasy! Take a nice thin grunge wash, and brush it on the
car side. Now, using a cotton swap (e.g. Q-tip), gently stoke down the side of the car, removing most of the paint. Keep changing swabs to keep removing paint. What is left will be in the shadow of rivets, seams, etc. Do one half of one side at at time. Let
dry and admire (then add chalk marks…)
Now, there was the time I got too heavy handed and airbrushed an all over “wash” on a RC express X29 (for the complete grunge covered look) and it totally sucked (too much paint, blotching, “flowering”, etc). So I literally poured 90% isopropanol
on the car side and started scrubbing with Q-tips. The wash sort of came off, as did some of the lettering. It actually looked beat-to-hell great! Then it dried with a white filmy look (UGH!). Thinking back to advice here, I wondered if a clear coat would
get rid of the haze (I’m tempted to call it an “alcohol haze” but then folks might comment on my drinking habits!). Rescued. Now this is one of my favorite weathering jobs… happened 100% by accident. Which leads to #4
4) Make lemonade out of lemons. Did you totally screw it up? Fine! Strip the car, repaint, decal, and do it again. Or maybe too much weathering? Gently remove the acrylic wash with isopropanol and a Q-tip. Not enough weathering? That the easy
one, just add more! ;)
5) As Jim Betz noted and as I have presented. Weathering is due to the action of nature and man on machine. Think about all the sources of weathering (not just rain, but road dust, other cars, mishandling, etc…) and how the job of that particular
piece of equipment affects its weathering (My next “EXTREME weathering project will be a Jordan spreader)
6) Finally, it isn’t necessary to make every car a work of art. Here are two quick “fleet weathering approaches”. These can be chalk or acrylic washes
Boxcar
- Fade the sides - lightly cover with a thinned color that is the same or a lighter version of the body color
- Fade the trucks - grit blast the side frames (protect the bearings with tape)
- Fade the underbody - a light coat of grimy or faded black, or darkish grime colors so show road dirt
- Fade the roof - a light coat of grimy or faded black to mimic the soot of the steam era
Tank car (black)
- overall fade with tarnished black (remember, if it is dark, make it lighter!)
- grimy or oily black around and under the dome (oil drips)
- fade the trucks
- thin rust wash next to the tank bands (to simulate their slipping as the tank expands and contracts)
Weathering is a nearly endless subject, with so many cool approaches. I typically use 2 to 3 different approaches, including washes, chalk, and airbrush to weather an individual car. For example, there are metallic paints that can then be oxidized
to generate REAL rust finishes, or real copper. The more layers of weathering, the more realistic it looks. Military modelers have a LOT of great ideas and have been doing this a long time. One recent You-Tube video of a German tank build included something
ridiculous like 80 HOURS of weathering! But don’t panic, 20-30 minutes can get you a lot of nice effects too!
Regards Bruce
Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
|
|
|
|
Mont Switzer
Weathering: last but not least, you can hide your mistakes with weathering. I’ve weathered my way out of more than one mess of my own making.
Mont
Montford L. Switzer President Switzer Tank Lines, Inc. Fall Creek Leasing, LLC. (765) 836-2914
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 11:16 AM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Question about weathering
Ray,
GO FOR IT! It can be daunting to take a nice model and feel like you might ruin it. In chemistry terms, it has a “high activation energy”, but the rewards are many and the risks actually few. Some suggestions beyond what others have posted.
1) Start with Chalks. If you use plain chalks, they are easy to wash off. In addition, when you clear coat, they get much less intense. Chalks with adhesive, such as Bragdon’s or the ones I use, Doc O’Brien's Weathering Powders (Micro Mark https://www.micromark.com/Doc-ObrienS-Powders) are a little harder to remove but will come off too.
2) I’m a little crazy, but my 1st weathering attempt was a P2K PRR HH1 (N&W Y-3) 2-8-8-2. Weathering a $400 locomotive is enough to keep you focused! You might want to work on a freight car 1st ;)
3) Acrylic washes are also easy to work with. I do them over acrylics, so I have to be careful when removing. The most common approach is something Jim Six called “Q-Tip weathering”. Easy-peasy! Take a nice thin grunge wash, and brush it on the car side. Now, using a cotton swap (e.g. Q-tip), gently stoke down the side of the car, removing most of the paint. Keep changing swabs to keep removing paint. What is left will be in the shadow of rivets, seams, etc. Do one half of one side at at time. Let dry and admire (then add chalk marks…)
Now, there was the time I got too heavy handed and airbrushed an all over “wash” on a RC express X29 (for the complete grunge covered look) and it totally sucked (too much paint, blotching, “flowering”, etc). So I literally poured 90% isopropanol on the car side and started scrubbing with Q-tips. The wash sort of came off, as did some of the lettering. It actually looked beat-to-hell great! Then it dried with a white filmy look (UGH!). Thinking back to advice here, I wondered if a clear coat would get rid of the haze (I’m tempted to call it an “alcohol haze” but then folks might comment on my drinking habits!). Rescued. Now this is one of my favorite weathering jobs… happened 100% by accident. Which leads to #4
4) Make lemonade out of lemons. Did you totally screw it up? Fine! Strip the car, repaint, decal, and do it again. Or maybe too much weathering? Gently remove the acrylic wash with isopropanol and a Q-tip. Not enough weathering? That the easy one, just add more! ;)
5) As Jim Betz noted and as I have presented. Weathering is due to the action of nature and man on machine. Think about all the sources of weathering (not just rain, but road dust, other cars, mishandling, etc…) and how the job of that particular piece of equipment affects its weathering (My next “EXTREME weathering project will be a Jordan spreader)
6) Finally, it isn’t necessary to make every car a work of art. Here are two quick “fleet weathering approaches”. These can be chalk or acrylic washes Boxcar - Fade the sides - lightly cover with a thinned color that is the same or a lighter version of the body color - Fade the trucks - grit blast the side frames (protect the bearings with tape) - Fade the underbody - a light coat of grimy or faded black, or darkish grime colors so show road dirt - Fade the roof - a light coat of grimy or faded black to mimic the soot of the steam era Tank car (black) - overall fade with tarnished black (remember, if it is dark, make it lighter!) - grimy or oily black around and under the dome (oil drips) - fade the trucks - thin rust wash next to the tank bands (to simulate their slipping as the tank expands and contracts)
Weathering is a nearly endless subject, with so many cool approaches. I typically use 2 to 3 different approaches, including washes, chalk, and airbrush to weather an individual car. For example, there are metallic paints that can then be oxidized to generate REAL rust finishes, or real copper. The more layers of weathering, the more realistic it looks. Military modelers have a LOT of great ideas and have been doing this a long time. One recent You-Tube video of a German tank build included something ridiculous like 80 HOURS of weathering! But don’t panic, 20-30 minutes can get you a lot of nice effects too!
Regards Bruce
Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
|
|
|
|
Benjamin Hom
My two cents: 1. Richard Hendrickson's article "Vintage Dating Freight Cars" in the December 1995 issue of Railmodel Journal is required reading, not for specific weathering techniques, but the importance of context in capturing the overall scene on your layout. The article is available online at http://magazine.trainlife.com/rmj_1995_12/ . (Go to page 32.) In Richard's words, "Freight car fleets keep evolving. Older cars are retired, modernized, rebuiIt and/or renumbered. New cars are delivered. New paint and lettering schemes are introduced and gradually replace earlier ones. The process is endless, not only on the prototype railroad you're modeling but on the other lines whose cars turn up on your railroad in interchange service. Making your freight car models realistic, then, isn't enough; not only should each car represent its prototype accurately but all your cars should look the way their prototypes did at the same moment in time." Just as having a fleet of brand new cars is unrealistic, having an entire fleet weathered to the brink of extinction is also unrealistic. (The most notorious example of this is a heavily weathered Athearn Santa Fe "Shock Control" boxcar that turned up regularly in photos of Sellios' Franklin & South Manchester.) 2. Weathering from memory is tough as what you initially think is credible weathering turns out to be atypical or odd. (An example is the Ertl boxcars and gon "flood recovery" weathering.) Keep color photos handy for inspiration - an excellent source is the Library of Congress Farm Security Administration/Office of War Information Colllection. These are often misidentified on these lists as from "Shorpy" or "Collection of Shorpy", but the reality is these are in the public domain and available online, and the collection is far more extensive than what is posted on that blog. |
|
|
|
Aley, Jeff A
Brianna, it seems, independently discovered one of the corollaries to Murphy’s Law: “There are two kinds of dirt – the dark kind, which is attracted to light objects, and the light kind, which is attracted to dark objects.”
Regards,
-Jeff
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 7:43 AM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Question about weathering
Ray, Jim,
Additional commentary interspersed ;)
As a rule of thumb, everything goes towards a mid-tone. Brianna, my daughter, and I gave a clinic at an SER NMRA annual convention when she was the tender age of 5. She had many things to contribute, but perhaps the most seminal was “If it is light, make it darker, and if it is dark, make it lighter”. BTW, the old theater adage “don’t work with children and animals” is entirely true. Brianna stole the show.
And no pressure, but if a 5-year old can weather cars, so can you ;)
Except passenger cars and head end cars, which may have a more all-over weathering pattern, with some horizontal aspects. Locomotives also have patterns that both relate to gravity and movement.
Vary this color to vary your weathering. Alternative are Harbor Mist Grey, Railroad tie brown,
In real life, some equipment can retain a shine, whilst being weathered. However, I have never found that gloss looks anything but “toy-like” on a model, even if the prototype was shiny.
And remember that there are infinite shades of rust.
I try to use different methods to mix things up to avoid the everything looks the same problem, but also to build skills with different media.
Regards Bruce
Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
|
|
|
|
Ray, Ten years ago I was on a mission to find the ultimate weathering product. I liked chalks but didn't like the vanishing act they perform when overcoated with a flat finish. By the way my favorite Flats are Scalecoat, Model Master and......Windsor Newton Galleria Acrylic Flat in the 8oz. bottle for about $8.00. At Blick art store I walked into this PanPastel display. I was intrigued by their Oxide Red color and about 6 others. Bev would only let me buy one because she knew I had tried powders, chalks and others with little happiness. Unlike other modelers I picked up my Central Valley NP stock car, not a Bluebox boxcar, and attacked the roof. It was everything I wanted. easy application and professional looking color. The only weathering product I know of that is forgiving and mostly removable is Pan Pastel. I say "mostly" because White painted models will show a ghost of the color when removed. Pan Pastel is a high grade Artist product made of mostly pigment with a binder added, 96 colors plus a "Colorless Blender" that allows you to tone down the color to more of a tint. You need a good Flat finish on the model first and can apply with their SofftTools applicators, Micro-Brushes or artist oil brushes for tight spaces. I have been doing RPM clinics on these for years and also have a Blog on their website for us modelers. Modelingcolors.com There are quite a few and at the bottom of the pages is a note to click on for more. Pan Pastel is also usable likw a water based product. You can apply to wood and use as a stain. It mixes well with watercolor pencils like the Derwent brand. Honestly, it's the only thing I use now. My airbrush is only for painting and flat finishing. You have the option of using a Flat to protect the Pan Pastels from heavy handling or not. I stopped using an overcoat and I am always taking y rolling stock in and out of my A-Line carrying trays. I haven't noticed any significant loss of color. When applying the color you should put some pressure on the applicator, that helps it bond to the surface. Thank you for allowing me to share this. Attached is a Rock Island B-unit that I matched to a fodo from Fallenflags.com The CB&Q gondola is a mandatory freight car WIP content. This shows how to use Pan Pastel as a stain. Sincerely, Rob Manley
"Better modeling through personal embarrassment"
On Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 12:12:41 PM CDT, Aley, Jeff A <jeff.a.aley@...> wrote:
Brianna, it seems, independently discovered one of the corollaries to Murphy’s Law: “There are two kinds of dirt – the dark kind, which is attracted to light objects, and the light kind, which is attracted to dark objects.”
Regards,
-Jeff
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 7:43 AM To: main@realstmfc.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Question about weathering
Ray, Jim,
Additional commentary interspersed ;)
As a rule of thumb, everything goes towards a mid-tone. Brianna, my daughter, and I gave a clinic at an SER NMRA annual convention when she was the tender age of 5. She had many things to contribute, but perhaps the most seminal was “If it is light, make it darker, and if it is dark, make it lighter”. BTW, the old theater adage “don’t work with children and animals” is entirely true. Brianna stole the show.
And no pressure, but if a 5-year old can weather cars, so can you ;)
Except passenger cars and head end cars, which may have a more all-over weathering pattern, with some horizontal aspects. Locomotives also have patterns that both relate to gravity and movement.
Vary this color to vary your weathering. Alternative are Harbor Mist Grey, Railroad tie brown,
In real life, some equipment can retain a shine, whilst being weathered. However, I have never found that gloss looks anything but “toy-like” on a model, even if the prototype was shiny.
And remember that there are infinite shades of rust.
I try to use different methods to mix things up to avoid the everything looks the same problem, but also to build skills with different media.
Regards Bruce
Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
|
|
|
|
Tony Thompson
I have a fairly extensive and well illustrated description of using acrylic washes, in what are called "Reference pages" on my blog. They are found in the upper right corner of each blog post. Here is a link to Part 1, which is the basics (there is also a Part 2 with more advanced and more detailed aspects):
I continue to rely primarily on this method, with assists from artist's color pencils and Pan-Pastels for added effects. |
|
|
|
Tony, As long as you are using Pan Pastels, you can use them as washes. Apply to the model and with a stiff bristle artist oil brush or alcohol moistened Q-Tip, and manipulate the color on the model. Never get the Pans wet with water or alcohol. You can also use it as a stain by heavily wiping down the kit's wood components dry and setting (soaking) the pigment with the IsoPropyl Alcohol. Gin or Vodka works as well. Rob Manley
"Better modeling through personal embarrassment"
On Wednesday, September 23, 2020, 01:38:22 PM CDT, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
I have a fairly extensive and well illustrated description of using acrylic washes, in what are called "Reference pages" on my blog. They are found in the upper right corner of each blog post. Here is a link to Part 1, which is the basics (there is also a Part 2 with more advanced and more detailed aspects): I continue to rely primarily on this method, with assists from artist's color pencils and Pan-Pastels for added effects. |
|
|
|
Tony Thompson
Rob Manley wrote:
Don't have any that would surplus for this kind of use. <g> Tony Thompson |
|
|
|
David Burnett
Tony,
are you thinking of non model railroad usage? DSB. David S. Burnett
On Friday, September 25, 2020, 10:54:34 AM PDT, Tony Thompson <tony@...> wrote:
Rob Manley wrote:
Don't have any that would surplus for this kind of use. <g> |
|
|
|
Tony Thompson
David Burnett wrote:
Auxiliary use only. <g> Tony Thompson |
|
|
|
Nelson Moyer
I didn’t include Rule G in my private rulebook, but it’s there in my Employee Rulebook. I’m sure Rule G didn’t apply in business cars, based upon an antidote about Ralph Budd and James Hill. James was having an earnest disagreement with Ralph about some aspect of railroad business when the steward brought them a tray of Budweiser. Hill quipped, “Ah, Anheuser-Busch to make Budd wiser”.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 2:48 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Question about weathering
David Burnett wrote:
Auxiliary use only. <g>
|
|
|
|
naptownprr
I think you mean anecdote unless the beer was poisoned!
Jim Hunter From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Nelson Moyer <npmoyer@...>
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2020 3:59 PM To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io Subject: [External] Re: [RealSTMFC] Question about weathering
This message was sent from a non-IU address. Please exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments from external sources.
I didn’t include Rule G in my private rulebook, but it’s there in my Employee Rulebook. I’m sure Rule G didn’t apply in business cars, based upon an antidote about Ralph Budd and James Hill. James was having an earnest disagreement with Ralph about some aspect of railroad business when the steward brought them a tray of Budweiser. Hill quipped, “Ah, Anheuser-Busch to make Budd wiser”.
Nelson Moyer
From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io [mailto:main@RealSTMFC.groups.io]
On Behalf Of Tony Thompson
David Burnett wrote:
Auxiliary use only. <g>
|
|
|
|
Tony Thompson
Nelson Moyer wrote:
I am told that this varied quite widely from railroad to railroad, and from CEO to CEO. There were certainly teetotalers and a few on the edge of being lushes, and doubtless everything in between. Tony Thompson |
|
|
