Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)


Bob Chaparro
 

Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3224686

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Todd Sullivan
 

I like the searchlights in the next gondola.  Maybe that's where Lionel got some of its ideas? 

Nice additions for the Westerfield CN gondolas.  Maybe I'll have to add one to my layout.  Any ideas on what the guns are and HO model sources for hem?

Todd Sullivan


John Riddell
 

 

This gon was part of the armoured train that patrolled the north shore of the Skeena River in case on Japanese attach.

 

John Riddell

 


Gavin
 

I believe the guns are Bofors 45mm


On Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 9:20 AM Todd Sullivan via groups.io <sullivant41=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I like the searchlights in the next gondola.  Maybe that's where Lionel got some of its ideas? 

Nice additions for the Westerfield CN gondolas.  Maybe I'll have to add one to my layout.  Any ideas on what the guns are and HO model sources for hem?

Todd Sullivan


Ralph W. Brown
 

Hi Todd,

They look looks 40mm Bofors single mounts, although they appear to be sans their sights.

Pax,


Ralph Brown
Portland, Maine
PRRT&HS No. 3966
NMRA No. L2532

-----------------------------------------

From: "Todd Sullivan via groups.io"
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Cc:
Sent: Thursday November 5 2020 12:20:25PM
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)

I like the searchlights in the next gondola.  Maybe that's where Lionel got some of its ideas? 

Nice additions for the Westerfield CN gondolas.  Maybe I'll have to add one to my layout.  Any ideas on what the guns are and HO model sources for hem?

Todd Sullivan


Marc Simpson
 

CN Lines Magazine had an article about CN's #1 armoured train in the Volume 9 Number 2 issue.  The train was built for use on the line to Prince Rupert, British Columbia due to the threat of a Japanese attack.  It was built in 1942 and was used until 1943 so had a short lifespan.  It used an early boxcab diesel as motive power.  Lots of interesting photos of the train in the article.

You can get a DVD of all the back issues of CN Lines including the one with this article here: http://www.cnrha.ca/node/985/


--
Marc Simpson


John Riddell
 

Here is a view of the inside of the gon

 

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=HOF%2bE5Fh&id=01385F24CE1655E94AD774570E0495FB44A149C9&thid=OIP.HOF-E5Fhd2_O6khnnTscwgHaKz&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2flh5.googleusercontent.com%2fproxy%2fW3pU33yEXJFhmptKcpWjBImE2MSJAOgQxa6o6WUff-41XkxnATmCHdimOkvoI_fWUOYNlm5ISC5rx-yv%3ds0-d&exph=315&expw=216&q=CN+Armoured+train&simid=608008460031625331&ck=9447F59F69A1B5C66092AD88D6C821B2&selectedIndex=25&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0

 

John Riddell

 


John Riddell
 

Some info on the famous CN armoured train

 

http://northword.ca/october-2009/the-no-1-armoured-train

 

 

John Riddell

 


Mac shp
 


1/87 bofors
https://www.wespemodels.com/bofors_aa_40mm_wes_87073?search=bofors%20
Search the Wespe site and you may find it as a kit (tiny resin parts beware) and built up


Daniel A. Mitchell
 

Agree that they are 40mm Bofors automatic canons … effective light anti-aircrft guns. As for  “armor”, I hardly see any. Some kind of covers have been placed over the trucks, but they just look like thin steel. The gondola just appears to be a regular gondola, complete with dents in the side panels … hardly armored, just mild steel. This would offer only the lightest protection from small arms fire and shrapnel. One needs at least 5/8” of armor plate to offer any real protection from even a heavy machine gun, let alone any kind of artillery or canon fire. The 30cal or 50cal machine gun fire, or 20mm canon fire from an attack aircraft would really tear this thing up.

Dan MItchell
==========

On Nov 5, 2020, at 12:14 PM, Bob Chaparro via groups.io <chiefbobbb@...> wrote:

Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)
A photo from the National Archives of Canada:
This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Daniel A. Mitchell
 

I suspect that this train, like many items of the period, was intended to make the public feel like their government was doing something to protect them. It’s actual effectiveness would have been nearly nil. Mostly a “feel-good” gesture.

At the time there was an unfounded optimism that ANY anti-aircraft fire was amazingly effective. The navy was sure it’s ships were heavily protected by just a few anti-aircraft guns. NOT so, as Pearl Harbor and the British Repulse/Prince of Wales incident so sadly proved. Firepower then was minimal and accuracy nil.  Even later in WWII, with their anti-aircraft complements increased close to ten-fold, and with FAR better fire-control, ships were still quite velnerable to air attack, as the Japanese, German, and US Navys all discovered.

Dan MItchell
==========


Murray Stone
 

Dear Mr Chaparro.

 

Would you please advise how one actually gets to see the photo – All I get is details of the entry but not the actual photo itself.

 

Your advise will be deeply appreciated.

 

Murray Stone

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: 6 November 2020 4:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)

 

Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3224686

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Eric Hansmann
 

Try a different browser. I just opened it in Firefox without issue.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Murray Stone
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2020 3:29 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)

 

Dear Mr Chaparro.

 

Would you please advise how one actually gets to see the photo – All I get is details of the entry but not the actual photo itself.

 

Your advise will be deeply appreciated.

 

Murray Stone

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: 6 November 2020 4:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)

 

Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3224686

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Eric Hansmann
 

I just noticed your email address ends in AU. It might also be an international access issue.

 

 

Eric Hansmann

Murfreesboro, TN

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Murray Stone
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2020 3:29 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)

 

Dear Mr Chaparro.

 

Would you please advise how one actually gets to see the photo – All I get is details of the entry but not the actual photo itself.

 

Your advise will be deeply appreciated.

 

Murray Stone

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bob Chaparro via groups.io
Sent: 6 November 2020 4:14 AM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)

 

Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)

A photo from the National Archives of Canada:

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/CollectionSearch/Pages/record.aspx?app=FonAndCol&IdNumber=3224686

This photo can be enlarged quite a bit.

Bob Chaparro

Hemet, CA


Bruce Smith
 

Also some pretty nice 40 mm bofors in HO on Shapeways. I have 2 dual mounts for loading on a PRR F37 flat car, if I could only find a diagram/photo to guide my blocking and tie downs!

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Mac shp <mshepler8387@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2020 2:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)
 

1/87 bofors
https://www.wespemodels.com/bofors_aa_40mm_wes_87073?search=bofors%20
Search the Wespe site and you may find it as a kit (tiny resin parts beware) and built up


Gavin
 

Unfortunately, the diesel was armoured, but the train died before it could be used. For most of its working life it used an antiquated 4-6-0


On Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 11:00 AM Marc Simpson <mlwm420@...> wrote:
CN Lines Magazine had an article about CN's #1 armoured train in the Volume 9 Number 2 issue.  The train was built for use on the line to Prince Rupert, British Columbia due to the threat of a Japanese attack.  It was built in 1942 and was used until 1943 so had a short lifespan.  It used an early boxcab diesel as motive power.  Lots of interesting photos of the train in the article.

You can get a DVD of all the back issues of CN Lines including the one with this article here: http://www.cnrha.ca/node/985/


--
Marc Simpson


Kenneth Montero
 

Bruce,

Look at Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, Vol. 20, pages 1-85, especially p. 67. I am sure that there are some DOD manuals online for much more of the same.

Ken Montero

On 11/05/2020 6:18 PM Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


Also some pretty nice 40 mm bofors in HO on Shapeways. I have 2 dual mounts for loading on a PRR F37 flat car, if I could only find a diagram/photo to guide my blocking and tie downs!

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Mac shp <mshepler8387@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2020 2:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)


1/87 bofors
https://www.wespemodels.com/bofors_aa_40mm_wes_87073?search=bofors%20
Search the Wespe site and you may find it as a kit (tiny resin parts beware) and built up


Bruce Smith
 

Ken,

Got that, but... the mounts in question are naval twin 40s. And the car is a well-flat. Supposedly, the PRR's fleet of these cars was used to specifically move these mounts. None of the diagrams or photos comes close (and yes you should expect page 66 and 67 from me in the near future!)

Regards,
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Kenneth Montero <va661midlo@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2020 9:06 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)
 
Bruce,

Look at Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, Vol. 20, pages 1-85, especially p. 67. I am sure that there are some DOD manuals online for much more of the same.

Ken Montero
On 11/05/2020 6:18 PM Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


Also some pretty nice 40 mm bofors in HO on Shapeways. I have 2 dual mounts for loading on a PRR F37 flat car, if I could only find a diagram/photo to guide my blocking and tie downs!

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Mac shp <mshepler8387@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2020 2:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)


1/87 bofors
https://www.wespemodels.com/bofors_aa_40mm_wes_87073?search=bofors%20
Search the Wespe site and you may find it as a kit (tiny resin parts beware) and built up


Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...>
 

Ken and Bruce,

Remember the DOD didn't exist during WWII. Before 1947, we had the separate Navy Department and the War Department. Why is this important to your discussion? Because pre-1947 manuals for these weapons will be found in separate sections in archives. My first real job in the academic library world was in the Government Documents Department at the University of Virginia, which was a designated GPO depository (there are two of these in every state). As such we held paper copies of perhaps a million government documents and publications. I spent a lot of time break time looking at DOD materials, but was delighted to discover that we also had even older stuff up to 1947 in a separate War Department section, including a few manuals on military rail transportation (mandatory FC content). If you are looking for older stuff about 1942 guns on railroad cars, you are going to need to look for War Department documents. Sadly many of these older pieces have never been digitized.

This isn't about railroads, per se, but one of the prizes I found was a War Department book with "builder's photos" of various trucks supplied to the Army. Many of these were more-or-less off-the-shelf 1940 Ford, GMC and Dodge trucks. Except for tires and paint, these were virtually identical to trucks sold to the civilian firms, and many were later sold off as surplus after the war (especially fire engines). I copied out many of these for modeling purposes.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff (retired paraprofessional librarian)  🦆

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 10:06 PM Kenneth Montero <va661midlo@...> wrote:
Bruce,

Look at Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, Vol. 20, pages 1-85, especially p. 67. I am sure that there are some DOD manuals online for much more of the same.

Ken Montero
On 11/05/2020 6:18 PM Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


Also some pretty nice 40 mm bofors in HO on Shapeways. I have 2 dual mounts for loading on a PRR F37 flat car, if I could only find a diagram/photo to guide my blocking and tie downs!

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Mac shp <mshepler8387@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2020 2:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)


1/87 bofors
https://www.wespemodels.com/bofors_aa_40mm_wes_87073?search=bofors%20
Search the Wespe site and you may find it as a kit (tiny resin parts beware) and built up


Kenneth Montero
 

Garth,

You are correct regarding WWII. Thank you.

Other time-appropriate sources would be the Association of American Railroads "Loading of Commodities on Open Tops Cars" (someone in this group provided a link to a partial of the 1949 version) and the Navy Department, as well as the War Department.

Ken Montero

On 11/06/2020 5:08 AM Garth Groff and Sally Sanford <mallardlodge1000@...> wrote:


Ken and Bruce,

Remember the DOD didn't exist during WWII. Before 1947, we had the separate Navy Department and the War Department. Why is this important to your discussion? Because pre-1947 manuals for these weapons will be found in separate sections in archives. My first real job in the academic library world was in the Government Documents Department at the University of Virginia, which was a designated GPO depository (there are two of these in every state). As such we held paper copies of perhaps a million government documents and publications. I spent a lot of time break time looking at DOD materials, but was delighted to discover that we also had even older stuff up to 1947 in a separate War Department section, including a few manuals on military rail transportation (mandatory FC content). If you are looking for older stuff about 1942 guns on railroad cars, you are going to need to look for War Department documents. Sadly many of these older pieces have never been digitized.

This isn't about railroads, per se, but one of the prizes I found was a War Department book with "builder's photos" of various trucks supplied to the Army. Many of these were more-or-less off-the-shelf 1940 Ford, GMC and Dodge trucks. Except for tires and paint, these were virtually identical to trucks sold to the civilian firms, and many were later sold off as surplus after the war (especially fire engines). I copied out many of these for modeling purposes.

Yours Aye,


Garth Groff (retired paraprofessional librarian)  🦆

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 10:06 PM Kenneth Montero < va661midlo@...> wrote:
Bruce,

Look at Railway Prototype Cyclopedia, Vol. 20, pages 1-85, especially p. 67. I am sure that there are some DOD manuals online for much more of the same.

Ken Montero
On 11/05/2020 6:18 PM Bruce Smith < smithbf@...> wrote:


Also some pretty nice 40 mm bofors in HO on Shapeways. I have 2 dual mounts for loading on a PRR F37 flat car, if I could only find a diagram/photo to guide my blocking and tie downs!

Regards,
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL



From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> on behalf of Mac shp <mshepler8387@...>
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2020 2:19 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [RealSTMFC] Photo: Armored CN Gondola With Anti-Aircraft Guns (1942)


1/87 bofors
https://www.wespemodels.com/bofors_aa_40mm_wes_87073?search=bofors%20
Search the Wespe site and you may find it as a kit (tiny resin parts beware) and built up