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[Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?


erieblt2
 

My optometrist friend rightly points our eyes ‘see’ different colors from  others peoples eyes. This color thing is important to me too. We need to allow a more relaxed definition. For example weathered PRR ‘Brunswick Green’ is ‘a shade of blackish’  Period. Respectfully, Bill S


On Nov 16, 2020, at 10:14 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD <elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:



Bruce;

 

Of course I agree with you, but what else do we have to go by?  Kodachrome looks more accurate than any other film I ever took.  OK, warmer, but warm is good.

 

If I look at a photo or model, and it looks wrong, I will always feel it is wrong.  Vice versa.  We are only modeling a reality we want to look right.

 

And you cannot tell me the PRRT&HS “paint chips” we worked on as a group for so many years did not get consensus agreement that they look phenomenally correct!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 10:18 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

 

Elden sez:



"Kodachrome…..they are the only slides I took that looked like the real thing."



Actually, Elden, they are the only slides that look like your MEMORY of the real thing 😉. Memory is a notoriously tricky thing and tends to "warm" colors, just like Kodachrome. Kodak, or, as we from Rochester like to say, "The Great Yellow Mother to Us All" knew what they were doing. People are pleased when their photos look even better than their memories!



Regards,

Bruce 

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Bruce;

 

Of course I agree with you, but what else do we have to go by?  Kodachrome looks more accurate than any other film I ever took.  OK, warmer, but warm is good.

 

If I look at a photo or model, and it looks wrong, I will always feel it is wrong.  Vice versa.  We are only modeling a reality we want to look right.

 

And you cannot tell me the PRRT&HS “paint chips” we worked on as a group for so many years did not get consensus agreement that they look phenomenally correct!

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bruce Smith
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 10:18 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

 

Elden sez:



"Kodachrome…..they are the only slides I took that looked like the real thing."



Actually, Elden, they are the only slides that look like your MEMORY of the real thing 😉. Memory is a notoriously tricky thing and tends to "warm" colors, just like Kodachrome. Kodak, or, as we from Rochester like to say, "The Great Yellow Mother to Us All" knew what they were doing. People are pleased when their photos look even better than their memories!



Regards,

Bruce 

Bruce Smith

Auburn, AL


Brian Carlson
 

When we’re done with color maybe we can bring up IC banana reefers or the J&L tank cars again. (Grin) tongue firmly planted in cheek. 

Brian J. Carlson 

On Nov 13, 2020, at 10:18 PM, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


Elden sez:

"Kodachrome…..they are the only slides I took that looked like the real thing."

Actually, Elden, they are the only slides that look like your MEMORY of the real thing 😉. Memory is a notoriously tricky thing and tends to "warm" colors, just like Kodachrome. Kodak, or, as we from Rochester like to say, "The Great Yellow Mother to Us All" knew what they were doing. People are pleased when their photos look even better than their memories!

Regards,
Bruce 
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Bruce Smith
 

Elden sez:

"Kodachrome…..they are the only slides I took that looked like the real thing."

Actually, Elden, they are the only slides that look like your MEMORY of the real thing 😉. Memory is a notoriously tricky thing and tends to "warm" colors, just like Kodachrome. Kodak, or, as we from Rochester like to say, "The Great Yellow Mother to Us All" knew what they were doing. People are pleased when their photos look even better than their memories!

Regards,
Bruce 
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Dave, Tony, and all;

 

I agree with everything being said, with the addition that while true for the PRR (I grew up in Pittsburgh in the sixties and seventies, and well remember the air, water and ground pollution), I also traveled the nation, and other area landscapes were far less filthy, but not entirely for freight cars.  Some freight cars that were more restricted were not as filthy, some western roads in particular.  And it did vary by car type.

 

I also agree with the >90% filthy observation.  Absolutely.

 

My lesson out of that was:  model from photographs of the specific car, in its period!

 

And yes, Delano IS the gold standard:  Kodachrome…..they are the only slides I took that looked like the real thing.

 

Elden Gatwood

 

From: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io <main@RealSTMFC.groups.io> On Behalf Of devansprr
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2020 1:02 PM
To: main@RealSTMFC.groups.io
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: [RealSTMFC] Was there ever a clinic on Delano-based paint and weathering?

 

Re: Delano film color

I thought Delano's WWII color film was Kodachrome? Arguably the most accurate and stable color film of that era?

What better reference do we have?

I am not a color expert, but about ten years ago I spent some time pushing and pulling various Delano pictures to "adjust" the colors. There are a few select Delano photos where the colors are "fresh" - a just repainted caboose in bright daylight if I recall, and the running lights on an ore carrier in bright daylight.

My conclusion was that, assuming he used the same film throughout (perhaps not valid) any attempts to shift the color to something more "real" in one photo, created absurd colors in another photo.

My admittedly amateur conclusion was that his photos are effectively a gold standard for car weathering in that era. No one has shown be a better "reference" to model to for WWII.

I think the real problem is the denial by some of just how DIRTY railroad right of ways, and the equipment, were in those days. I think Tony's observation is correct - modelers are not willing to weather their cars to the full extent for the steam era, especially in the heavily industrialized east. And I mean no criticism of those modelers - I think it is tough to take a beautifully detailed model and basically wash a huge amount of soot across it...

My dad recalled that in that era a freshly washed car would be covered in soot the next morning in Pennsylvania cities. RoW pictures of the PRR main look like burned out forests, soot covering everything well beyond the immediate right of way. And the soil so acidic that nothing grew near the tracks - no need to control weeds in that era, nor to even model vegetation close to the tracks...

The key to me is that in a few of Delano's Provisio (?) distant yard photos in early spring (some cars have some snow on the roof), there appears perhaps 1 out of 200 cars that has a fresh paint scheme - that car just leaps out at you.

There is also a color movie out there of a PRR coal drag, I think from around 1940, capturing a gritty string of hoppers rolling by, until a freshly painted PRR Gla hopper flashes by - it is almost blinding - closer to international safety orange than any other color (so yes, the film was biased, but then that means every other hopper had even less "color" to it)...

I will refer to Rob's last sentence - weathering quickly becomes artistry - what does the modeler wish to convey? One possibility is to enlighten people to our industrial history, and that the environment in that era was an absolute mess - far dirtier than it is today. YMMV.

Dave Evans